How much bandwidth does a particular camera use - How do I calculate it?

Jolyon39

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Hi,

I see that as the cameras increase in MP you need to have an NVR capable of receiving all this increased volume of information/bandwidth. The NVR4108 series has 80MBS incoming bandwidth, the 4208 series has 160 MBS incoming bandwidth and the NVR5216 has 300 mbs incoming bandwidth.

Yes I know you can match cameras to the lower bandwidth NVR and “what an I using it for, do I need all that bandwidth?” because you customise a solution. Lets just say that I need higher resolution around and in my house.

So I am thinking 4 HDW5442 series cameras for a start and want about 8 or more of those in the end. So what bandwidth will they consume and how do I calculate it? I am also considering an NVR5216 4KS2 because there is no real fan noise from that to help people find where it is hidden and I can use a POE switch to run the cameras. (16 channel instead of 8 because its only an extra $15 to have all that extra capability)

Is the NVR 5216 more complex to set up than a 4 series NVR or is it all very similar?
 

wittaj

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In addition to the bandwidth, the NVR has to be capable of the native camera resolution or the camera will not work.

Unless it is specifically called out the bandwidth available for access, storage and forwarding, the bandwidth is total bandwidth going in and out.

The 4 and 5 series are very close in terms of setting them up.

Camera bandwidth is a function of MP, FPS, and bitrate. To give an estimate, you can use the HDD calculator and then convert it so Mbps. Calculating Required Hard Drive Size
 

cbt20

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In addition to the bandwidth, the NVR has to be capable of the native camera resolution or the camera will not work.

Unless it is specifically called out the bandwidth available for access, storage and forwarding, the bandwidth is total bandwidth going in and out.

The 4 and 5 series are very close in terms of setting them up.

Camera bandwidth is a function of MP, FPS, and bitrate. To give an estimate, you can use the HDD calculator and then convert it so Mbps. Calculating Required Hard Drive Size
Is the calculator programmed for h.264 or h.265?
 

wittaj

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Is the calculator programmed for h.264 or h.265?
The "differences" between H264 and H265 is that in theory you can run H265 on lower bitrates. In theory many users do not see the talked about savings. Some see 10% savings, I personally saw storage savings within minutes. It is field of view dependent.

If your calculations on which NVR you need to get is based on the differences of H264 versus H265, then you need to just move to the next powerful NVR.
 

cbt20

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The "differences" between H264 and H265 is that in theory you can run H265 on lower bitrates. In theory many users do not see the talked about savings. Some see 10% savings, I personally saw storage savings within minutes. It is field of view dependent.

If your calculations on which NVR you need to get is based on the differences of H264 versus H265, then you need to just move to the next powerful NVR.
Well I think most modern systems made in the last few years already have h.265 encoding. In my experience, the difference between the two has always been substantial, especially with the higher resolutions where you'll see a big difference.
 

wittaj

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Like I said it is field of view dependent.

On my 4MP cams it was literally a few minutes a day of storage differences between the two

To my eyes and others that I would show video clips to in a blind taste test LOL, we all preferred the H264 video, so between H264 looking better and the storage savings not that much, I run H264. YMMV.
 

IReallyLikePizza2

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Like I said it is field of view dependent.

On my 4MP cams it was literally a few minutes a day of storage differences between the two

To my eyes and others that I would show video clips to in a blind taste test LOL, we all preferred the H264 video, so between H264 looking better and the storage savings not that much, I run H264. YMMV.
Exact same experience here
 

Jolyon39

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In addition to the bandwidth, the NVR has to be capable of the native camera resolution or the camera will not work.

Unless it is specifically called out the bandwidth available for access, storage and forwarding, the bandwidth is total bandwidth going in and out.

The 4 and 5 series are very close in terms of setting them up.

Camera bandwidth is a function of MP, FPS, and bitrate. To give an estimate, you can use the HDD calculator and then convert it so Mbps. Calculating Required Hard Drive Size
Thanks

What I found was that the 4108-4KS2 was limited to one or two High res (4K or better) cameras due to bandwidth of only 80mb/s (unless you use 8 low res cameras). This means that the NVR 4208 -4KS2 with 200MB/s incoming bandwidth was still a bit limited if I added better cameras. This has lead me to the NVR5208 -4KS2 with its 320mb/s. I want at least 8 cameras at high res to cover exterior access to the property and then internal movement. In particular a gun room with 4 safes because in my country the Police make gun ownership extremely difficult and you have to be seen to go the extra mile.

In selecting a system I am very much aware that the hype on TV crime programs where they zoom in to a number plate is rubbish. The home surveillance “Kits” sold everywhere in retail stores are assembled to a price point and often include old technology to make the price point work. To actually get an image you can zoom into a bit you need great cameras and an NVR capable of recording that great resolution.

So, the reason behind my original question was “Will an NVR5208-4KS2 handle 8 4K cameras at ”full Resolution” and will a NVR5216-4KS2 handle 16 4K cameras at full Resolution? I will be using the Dahua HDW5442 series of camera Because of everything I have read on Ipcamtalk

This all why I want to calculate a cameras performance in Mb/s, what recorder will handle all 4K or better cameras at its maximum capacity of cameras.

By the way, I used to own my own burglar alarm company and have a lot of experience on the tools. I am not phased by this at all!
 

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my better cameras are 5 MPixel at 15 fps, and are running around 8000 kbit/sec, which is 1 MByte/sec. I tried lower data rates, but the video looked messy, with pixelation. 10 of these would come close to saturating a 100baseT link.
 

Jolyon39

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I would stick with this one, for future proofing.
Thanks

This is exactly what I was thinking but as I have a very technical mind I like to understand “why” and how to calculate it……. Its strange but I like to understand the workings and then i feel comfortable versus just fit a box. Its like I need to know “why” otherwise I feel uncomfortable.

I intend to buy an NVR5208 -4KS2 as you suggest, a Version 2 from Empire Trading due to the support I see here, and currently have an NVR4108-4KS2 to practice on.
 

wittaj

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It ultimately ends up being what bitrate and FPS you use for the resolution.

I have found my 4MP camera at 15 FPS needs a bitrate of 8192, so it is pushing 10MB/s. An 8MP may need double the bitrate.

So while the NVR may be able to "handle" 8 or 16 4K cameras, does it have to be at a reduction in FPS or bitrate?

My neighbor has an 8 camera NVR and 8 4k cameras, but he is limited to 4092 bitrate if he wants all them at 4k.
 

Jolyon39

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It ultimately ends up being what bitrate and FPS you use for the resolution.

I have found my 4MP camera at 15 FPS needs a bitrate of 8192, so it is pushing 10MB/s. An 8MP may need double the bitrate.

So while the NVR may be able to "handle" 8 or 16 4K cameras, does it have to be at a reduction in FPS or bitrate?

My neighbor has an 8 camera NVR and 8 4k cameras, but he is limited to 4092 bitrate if he wants all them at 4k.
And your comment is precisely the rabbit hole I am exploring.

I want a great resolution and am aware that FPS and bit rate limit even great cameras. I would rather spend $1000 (our dollar buys 60 cents US) on a capable NVR that will kill it versus $400 and feel limited.

Hey, I am going to start with 4 cameras so at that rate the NVR5208 will kill it but what about when I add more cameras that I plan, will it still work for me?

I have ordered one HDW5442 from Andy and will get second one to really push my existing NVR4108-4KS2 (my practice unit that will later get installed in a shed)
 
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Jolyon39

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my better cameras are 5 MPixel at 15 fps, and are running around 8000 kbit/sec, which is 1 MByte/sec. I tried lower data rates, but the video looked messy, with pixelation. 10 of these would come close to saturating a 100baseT link.
Great point!

So I would need to update my router to 1GB?

What about the Poe switch? Should I get one with a 1GB uplink?
 
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The composite of all the cameras when watching remotely is not at full resolution. If you plan on using a PoE switch for cameras, attached to the NVR, it will only be an advantage IF the NVR has a 1GB port.

You can avoid the whole bandwidth problem if you use a VMS like Blue Iris plus not be locked into staying with one brand for both the cameras and NVR.
 

mat200

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So I would need to update my router to 1GB?

What about the Poe switch/ Should I get one with a 1GB uplink?
imho go with the 5216 NVR model if you think you need more than 5 cameras ... ( often we find I want just one more camera .. and fairly easy to get to 8 cameras for many of us .. )

fwiw:

Router, do not have your camera traffic go through the router on your LAN. Only use the router for when you need to VPN into your LAN remotely to view your video.
( I actually have mine separate .. )
 

Jolyon39

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The composite of all the cameras when watching remotely is not at full resolution. If you plan on using a PoE switch for cameras, attached to the NVR, it will only be an advantage IF the NVR has a 1GB port.

You can avoid the whole bandwidth problem if you use a VMS like Blue Iris plus not be locked into staying with one brand for both the cameras and NVR.
Thanks

Can you refer me to a link that explains this? I would like to read up on it and study it. It sounds like it might be the next stage after I complete my current learners steps, nothing wrong with learning one and then stepping up.
 

wittaj

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As others have said, I'd recommend you consider a Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR. Keep in mind an NVR is simply a stripped down computer after all... And this would allow you the flexibility to mix camera brands.

You don't need to buy components and build one, or buy a new computer either.

When I was looking at replacing an existing NVR, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal (the bandwidth is can process is a huge limiting factor), and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR.

Many of us buy refurbished computers that are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

A member here a couple months ago found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. You won't find a capable NVR cheaper than that...

Blue Iris has a demo, so try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

And you can disable Windows updates and set up the computer to automatically restart in a power failure, and then you have a more powerful NVR with a nice mobile viewing interface. I have found the power consumption to be comparable to an NVR and even less in some instances.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either. But we would recommend staying away from those brands even if you go the NVR route with one of those brands...
 

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note that the majority 4K (8Mpix) cameras tend to have smaller pixels, so have poorer low light capability at the sorts of shutter speeds needed to prevent motion ghosting. Right now, a 1/1.8" camera chip with 4Mpix, such as the Dahua/Loyota IPC-T5442T-xx series have the best IR night vision. I've heard some new 4K cameras are 1/1.3" chips, but I've not yet worked with one.

my IPC-T5442 is 2688 x 1520 pixels, and a 1/1.8" chip is about 7.11 x 5.33mm, this gives approximately a 2.6 micron square pixel.
a "4K" camera is 3840x2160, the one I have has a 1/2.7" sensor chip, thats about 5.33 x 4mm, thats about a 1.3 micron square pixel.

a 2.6 micron square has about 4K the area of a 1.3 micron square, so its 2 full f/stops 'faster', this trnaslates to much better night vision.

the majority of 'reliable' PoE switches are 100baseT... I have some cheap off brand chinese gigabit PoE switches, but the guys on here who install a lot of systems say these are a lot less reliable, one common failure is the external 'wall wart' power supply these switches use, the better 100baseT ones have internal PSUs.
 
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