I need recommendation for good wifi cameras for indoor and outdoor (and potentially door bell, door lock, flood lights, and garage door opener).

A

Anchal Nigam

n3wb
Jul 22, 2019
13
1
USA
First, let me start by saying that we don't need this for safety/security. My threat vector is not the same as others. But I still want adequate quality, motion detection, and clarity. Second, I cannot run wires or use powerline adapters. Everything has to be wifi/wireless.

I currently have Eufy cameras but I hate them. Their UI sucks. Their app keeps spamming me with ads. They encrypt the footage on the microSD so I can't view them on my computer. Just complete trash.

So now I'm trying to find a good alternative. Here are my needs, in order of importance:
  • wifi cameras with wall plug for power (not battery)
  • consumer grade (I don't need pro equipment)
  • motion/sound detection
  • night vision
Now, I currently record to microSD and am okay to keep doing that as long as I can easily get footage from the camera microSD card to my computer without having to take the microSD card out. So some kind of remote access to the files on the camera. I was reading Reolink has this but I can't confirm it.

I do have a Home Assistant box and I could add storage to it and use it as NVR. I don't need to do this -- it would be more a nice to have.

I figure, if the camera has a good software/features that I can do everything from their app, then I wont use HA. But if the camera software is inadequate, then I will configure them to record to my HA box. I'm not even sure how to make HA record from cameras and alert me. That's why I think if the camera software is good enough, I'll probably just use it.

Ideally I'd like a system where the company sells other things like door bell, door lock, flood lights, garage door opener, etc. These are all things I'll be needing down the road and I want to try to stay in one ecosystem.

So far I think Reolink or Amcrest are the top contenders but there is so much technical jargon on the internet that I can't make sense of heads or tails.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mat200
Anchal Nigam said:
First, let me start by saying that we don't need this for safety/security. My threat vector is not the same as others. But I still want adequate quality, motion detection, and clarity. Second, I cannot run wires or use powerline adapters. Everything has to be wifi/wireless.

I currently have Eufy cameras but I hate them. Their UI sucks. Their app keeps spamming me with ads. They encrypt the footage on the microSD so I can't view them on my computer. Just complete trash.

So now I'm trying to find a good alternative. Here are my needs, in order of importance:
  • wifi cameras with wall plug for power (not battery)
  • consumer grade (I don't need pro equipment)
  • motion/sound detection
  • night vision
Now, I currently record to microSD and am okay to keep doing that as long as I can easily get footage from the camera microSD card to my computer without having to take the microSD card out. So some kind of remote access to the files on the camera. I was reading Reolink has this but I can't confirm it.

I do have a Home Assistant box and I could add storage to it and use it as NVR. I don't need to do this -- it would be more a nice to have.

I figure, if the camera has a good software/features that I can do everything from their app, then I wont use HA. But if the camera software is inadequate, then I will configure them to record to my HA box. I'm not even sure how to make HA record from cameras and alert me. That's why I think if the camera software is good enough, I'll probably just use it.

Ideally I'd like a system where the company sells other things like door bell, door lock, flood lights, garage door opener, etc. These are all things I'll be needing down the road and I want to try to stay in one ecosystem.

So far I think Reolink or Amcrest are the top contenders but there is so much technical jargon on the internet that I can't make sense of heads or tails.
Click to expand...

Welcome @anchal

I know of no security camera that meets your requirements.

You will have to compromise someplace.

If wifi is required, then the question is can you go with wired power?

If you can not, then you will be very limited on what you can get.

If UI is important then look at Ring or Nest cloud cameras ..

If low light is important then you have to bite the bullet and go with better wired ip poe cameras ..
 
Anchal Nigam said:
I can’t run Ethernet. And power line won’t work in my house.
I’ve spent a year trying to figure something out and it’s cost prohibitive for me.

so it has to be WiFi + wall power.
Click to expand...

Do you have an attached garage ?
 
You said "But I still want adequate quality, motion detection, and clarity"

You just won't get that with consumer grade wifi cameras. They simply are not designed for that purpose, but rather for the unsuspecting property owner that likes the quick solution.

You will have to sacrifice quality, motion detection, and clarity.

Now if all you want is to possibly be notified when someone is close to your house or door and the video may or may not be of any use to the police, then yeah go for it.

Here is a thread that shows all the examples of image quality of perps from all the consumer grade cameras. Is this good enough quality for what you need?

Sadly you will find the wifi cams will work basically like you have now. Some may have a slightly better app, some may be worse.

Some are a pixelated mess because the wifi cannot keep up when there is motion.

Some miss the event all together because it depends on being connected to the manufacturer cloud and the internet was down.

Some miss the beginning of the event and are only left with the person walking away.

The Typical picture of a Perp on Nextdoor-type Apps with Consumer Grade Cameras like Ring, Nest, Arlo, Canary, Wyze, etc.

Love these posts on Nextdoor type apps LOL. This thread will be used for members to post the poor quality consumer grade type camera images that we see people post to the Nextdoor type apps. Can anyone make out this person that went thru their cars LOL.... And this thread is where members...
ipcamtalk.com ipcamtalk.com
 
  • Like
Reactions: mat200
Maybe you are fine now one day with wifi cams, but one day something will happen. A new device, neighbors microwave, etc.

Cameras connected to Wifi routers (whether wifi or not) are problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your entire system.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent, especially once you start adding distance. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a camera connected to a router and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.

So the more cameras you add, the bigger the potential for issues.

Many people unfortunately think wifi cameras are the answer and they are not. People will say what about Ring and Nest - well that is another whole host of issues that we will not discuss here LOL, but they are not streaming 24/7, only when you pull up the app. And then we see all the people come here after that system failed them because their wifi couldn't keep up when the perp came by. For streaming 24/7 to something like an NVR or Blue Iris, forget about it if you want reliability.


This was a great test that SouthernYankee tried and posted about it here:

I did a WIFI test a while back with multiple 2MP cameras each camera was set to VBR, 15 FPS, 15 Iframe, 3072kbs, h.264. Using a WIFI analyzer I selected the least busy channel (1,6,11) on the 2.4 GHZ band and set up a separate access point. With 3 cameras in direct line of sight of the AP about 25 feet away I was able to maintain a reasonable stable network with only intermittent signal drops from the cameras. Added a 4th camera and the network became totally unstable. Also add a lot of motion to the 3 cameras caused some more network instability. More data more instability.
The cameras are nearly continuously transmitting. So any lost packet causes a retry, which cause more traffic, which causes more lost packets.
WIFI does not have a flow control, or a token to transmit. So your devices transmit any time they want, more devices more collisions.
As a side note, it is very easy to jam a WIFI network. WIFI is fine for watching the bird feed but not for home surveillance and security.
The problem is like standing in a room, with multiple people talking to you at the same time about different subjects. You need to answer each person or they repeat the question.

Test do not guess.

For a 802.11G 2.4 GHZ WIFI network the Theoretical Speed is 54Mbps (6.7MBs) real word speed is nearer to 10-29Mbps (1.25-3.6 MBs) for a single channel

And TonyR recommends this (which is the preferred way IF you want to do wifi)

The only way I'd have wireless cams is the way I have them now: a dedicated 802.11n, 2.4GHz Access Point for 3 cams, nothing else uses that AP. Its assigned channel is at the max separation from another 2.4GHz channel in the house. There is no other house near me for about 300 yards and we're separated by dense foliage and trees.

Those 3 cams are indoor, non-critical pet cams (Amcrest IP2M-841's) streaming to Blue Iris and are adequately reliable for their jobs. They take their turns losing signal/reconnecting usually about every 12 hours or so for about 20 seconds which I would not tolerate for an outdoor surveillance cam pointed at my house and/or property.

But for me, this works in my situation: dedicated AP, non-critical application and periodic, short-term video loss.... if any one of those 3 conditions can't be achieved or tolerated, then I also do not recommend using wireless cams. :cool:
 
  • Like
Reactions: mat200
Anchal Nigam said:
Yes. If you’re asking to try to help me run Ethernet, I assure you it’s not an option. I’ve had professionals come. They can do it but it’ll cost way more than I want to spend.
Click to expand...

Yes I do understand thanks to the pandemic flood of cash for anyone breathing that labor rates are higher than many of would like to pay.

STILL .. if you have an attached garage there are typically ways to DIY install a wired poe set of camera from that space to get coverage of your driveway, often even walkway to the front door and sides of the house.

Trust me, we all have gone through this .. I did. I got a box of junk wifi cameras before I finally gave in and went wired ip poe with good cameras.

Did they meet all the check boxes .. no, but I can tell you that they were far superior to any of the wifi options out there in terms of image quality.

One option is keeping a few wifi cloud cameras for alerts and cloud access. Yes it does mean having different ecosystems for your cameras ..

And yes I do understand some are unable to do DIY work .. unfortunately that will mean further compromising on options.
 
wittaj said:
You just won't get that with consumer grade wifi cameras. They simply are not designed for that purpose, but rather for the unsuspecting property owner that likes the quick solution.
Click to expand...

I get all that. I want whatever is the best I can get.

I don't have an issue with the image quality of the Eufy. In fact, if I set up an NVR, the Eufy ones are nice. I am just not happy with them as a company, their support, the crappy UI, etc.

wittaj said:
Maybe you are fine now one day with wifi cams, but one day something will happen. A new device, neighbors microwave, etc.
Click to expand...

This is not a concern for me. I work in CyberSecurity so I'm quite familiar with attack vectors and risk management. I want these cameras mostly for:
  • fun (I like playing with toys)
  • catch fun/sweet moments of my family
  • quickly check in to see the house is still standing when we're away on vacation
I do not need/want them as a security control. I don't need high quality or to catch everything or see fine print. In fact, if every camera went down, it would be 0 issues for me.

So yes, I understand all the risks and issues and concerns. I get all that.

I just need help finding the best wifi camera that meets most my requirements.

mat200 said:
STILL
Click to expand...

I promise, promise, promise you it is not possible/feasible for me to run wires without tearing all my walls down. This house is old and previous owners did a lot of things that are not standard. The house is in great shape, but work like this is not possible. Please, trust me when I say I've checked this and know it's not possible.

And yes, I know I'm making compromises. I'm okay with that.

I just need/want to know the best wifi camera that meets most of my requirements. :/

I really do appreciate all the feedback and concern -- I really do -- but I know what the risks are and am okay with them.
 
Anchal Nigam said:
I get all that. I want whatever is the best I can get.

I don't have an issue with the image quality of the Eufy. In fact, if I set up an NVR, the Eufy ones are nice. I am just not happy with them as a company, their support, the crappy UI, etc.



This is not a concern for me. I work in CyberSecurity so I'm quite familiar with attack vectors and risk management. I want these cameras mostly for:
  • fun (I like playing with toys)
  • catch fun/sweet moments of my family
  • quickly check in to see the house is still standing when we're away on vacation
I do not need/want them as a security control. I don't need high quality or to catch everything or see fine print. In fact, if every camera went down, it would be 0 issues for me.

So yes, I understand all the risks and issues and concerns. I get all that.

I just need help finding the best wifi camera that meets most my requirements.



I promise, promise, promise you it is not possible/feasible for me to run wires without tearing all my walls down. This house is old and previous owners did a lot of things that are not standard. The house is in great shape, but work like this is not possible. Please, trust me when I say I've checked this and know it's not possible.

And yes, I know I'm making compromises. I'm okay with that.

I just need/want to know the best wifi camera that meets most of my requirements. :/

I really do appreciate all the feedback and concern -- I really do -- but I know what the risks are and am okay with them.
Click to expand...

How much did the contractor quote to run lines?

Wifi ..

Go with ring or Nest ..
 
Since you mention NVR, keep in mind most consumer wifi cameras are proprietary and not ONVIF compliant and only work in their platform and are unable to stream to an NVR and certainly not 24/7 reliably.

And in rare instances where someone has hacked a way, then the manufacturer blocks it. For example Ring only allows for like 15 minutes before it shuts down the feed.

And I didn't even mention the attack vector side of it. I am saying that if you throw up a few cameras you could see it slow down your system since these cameras don't buffer.

Given your constraints, simply throw up some Ring or Arlo and call it done. Throw up a little solar panel next to each and you don't even have to run a power cord. Many say those are the best apps, so if you don't like those, you probably won't like what else is out there...
 
I really do appreciate all the feedback and concern -- I re
mat200 said:
How much did the contractor quote to run lines?
Click to expand...

5k to go through multiple areas of solid concrete to get cables where they'd need to go.

wittaj said:
keep in mind most consumer wifi cameras are proprietary and not ONVIF compliant
Click to expand...

I was reading that cameras like Reolink support it and work fine with HA and other NVRs. Is that not true?

wittaj said:
And in rare instances where someone has hacked a way
Click to expand...

My FW blocks any inbound requests to my cameras.

wittaj said:
I am saying that if you throw up a few cameras you could see it slow down your system since these cameras don't buffer.
Click to expand...

My network configuration is quite robust and can handle it.

And I will check out Ring/Arlo. My research was pointing to Reolink, away from Ring. But y'all are saying Ring. I will look into them.
 
Read the context of my statement - when I said "hacked a way" it was in reference to that entire post about proprietary systems and about about people hacking ways around proprietary systems as in the user themselves hacked a way to view the Ring camera into a manner they could record it and Ring shut it down. Ring cameras need access to their cloud and after 15 minutes of viewing it shuts it down.

We haven't even touched the concerns about letting cameras touch the internet (even though you keep trying to inject that is what I am saying and haven't yet), but since you clearly don't want to hear it being a cybersecurity expert, no sense telling you about the backdoor exploits the cameras have to access and call home and many of the cameras and blocking inbound isn't enough. And many you could be looking at require internet access to work so blocking the camera from the internet renders the camera useless... Ring will not work without internet access as an example.

Reolink makes claims they are ONVIF compliant but most have found that they really do not play well with NVRs that are not Reolink. You can find posts here were people tried and in customer support with Reolink they admit it may not work well with their particular setup.


But since you don't care about the quality of the video, then go with Reolink. It would be one of the few that doesn't need internet access to work and could cobble it together to work with HA and Frigate if their AI app isn't sufficient for you.

Reolink's algorithm is designed to produce a nice bright static image at night and that comes at a cost of blur and ghost and missing body parts or the entire object at night.


Reolink does a very good job of still images. But at night perps are a complete motion blur with missing body parts LOL....

What you mean a missing hand isn't normal LOL :lmao (plus look at the blur on the face and he is barely moving and this should be ideal indoor IR bounce and it struggles):


1708801531582.png


How about missing everything but the blur of a head and upper torso :lmao:

The invisible man, where can he be. Thank goodness he is carrying around a reflective plate to see where he is LOL (hint - the person is literally in the middle of the image at the end of the fence where that rectangular reflective plate is that he is carrying around)

Maybe this is what you mean by your idea of fun is to see if you can capture your family on the camera LOL

I've seen better images on an episode of ghost hunters :lmao:



1708801585568.png





And of course, this is an example from Reolink's marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture.... Is this the type of image you want to catch fun/sweet moments of your family? The still picture looks ok though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two visible columns:


1708801599328.png



In the wifi category, you won't get much better than you already have now. And your chasing the unicorn may result in spending more money for lessor quality.

Here is the unofficial Reolink thread. It is documented in that thread as well the issues that VMS (NVR) systems have with Reolink cameras.

You can see all the attempts people have provided to demonstrate the quality of Reolink, and they are all a blurry mess at night or missing body parts or other messes.

We have challenged folks to provide a clean capture of someone moving at night with a Reolink and as you can see with over 20 pages, nobody has yet to provide a usable image with motion at night.



Reolink: Deconstruction of a dangerous misleading youtube review "Finding the BEST 4K Security Camera NVR Package (Reolink vs Amcrest vs Swann)"
 
Last edited:
wittaj said:
Read the context of my statement
Click to expand...

First, let me start by saying that I really do appreciate the thoughtful responses. I hope I am not coming off rude or disrespectful -- that is absolutely not my intention. I really do appreciate your advice and council.

And my bad for missing the context. I read too fast.

wittaj said:
backdoor exploits the cameras have to access and call home
Click to expand...

Yes, unfortunately I am intimately familiar with them. It's become one of those things that I know how bad things really are across the technology and IoT space that one more camera isn't gonna affect my risk much. With that said, if I do get everything working through HA, then I will block in/out WAN for all cameras and control what ports the cameras can use when talking to my router. But, with all that said, I'm not so concerned with security. I'm more concerned with getting what I need/want.

Right now I'm debating Reolink and Amcrest. I'm tempted to just buy a few of both and see how it goes. :/
 
If you plan to go with HA, between the two, I would go with Amcrest as it is basically watered down cheaper versions of Dahua cameras, so it will have better ONVIF support for other stuff and will be able to work with other stuff later.

If you plan to just go the app route, then go reolink as their app experience will be much better than Amcrest. If you think eufy is bad, try the apps from better cameras lol.

The better cameras figure people will use another platform for their VMS needs so they don't invest a lot in their app whereas the consumer grade cameras know the app experience will be what drives sales and they invest in the app.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom