In-ground conduit for cam related cables

[Virga]

From input in other threads regarding where to locate a camera(s) at a gate and on connecting a camera PoE switch from around 330-plus feet away, the cameras grew to seven, and it is clear that the long run network connection should be fiber optic. The existing buried conduit is ¾”, which is limiting. Additional conduit runs could become feasible by making a project planned for later happen sooner. I’ve been thinking about an irrigation project which involves trenching for water supply lines. Once you have trenches, it is a matter of more PVC conduit for camera related cable.

1. For the 330 foot run, what size conduit should I install in the ground? If 1” schedule 40 conduit is $X/foot, 1½” is 2X, and 2” is 3X, approximately speaking. I’m thinking of one conduit for the FO cable, and a second one for other TBD future use. 1” water line also in the same trench. The trenching machine makes a 6” trench in the ground.

2. Can copper ethernet cable be run in the same conduit as 24V irrigation valve control wires? The irrigation controller that energizes the control wires has a transformer that is specified as: “Transformer output (24 VAC): 1 A”
Since there will be trenching for water lines, I’m going to put irrigation solenoid valve control wires in conduit, rather than direct bury the wires. Control wires for irrigation are 18 AWG and carry 24V to operate the solenoid valves. For irrigation typically only one zone runs at one time because water is the constraint, though in any case the transformer output (above) is limited.

With all this trenching, it may be feasible to expand the reach of future camera locations by having a conduit in the ground on three sides of my house. Approximately half the distance would have irrigation control wires (in conduit) anyways, and I’d be adding conduit where there will anyways be trenching for water lines. So incremental cost will be conduit. Disadvantage of buried conduits is that I’ll have to use burial grade ethernet cable in the future.
Alternatives could be don’t run network wires in ground or install dedicated camera-cable-only conduit in the ground.

Request input.

 

[fergenheimer]

I do not see a problem running the irrigation and ethernet cable in the same conduit. I think though at that distance, the voltage drop in the irrigation cable will be excessive. I use Voltage Drop Calculator | Southwire to calculate drop. Unfortunately, they only go down to 14 gauge on the calculator. To make it happen, you might be able to use a higher voltage dc adapter or go with nonstandard irrigation wire. I would go with the 1-1/2" conduit. The fiber ends would be tough to run through 1" conduit. The cheap orange fiber might still be limited at 330 feet. Single mode yellow might be better at that run length. They are more expensive but might be needed.

 

[tigerwillow1]

Can copper ethernet cable be run in the same conduit as 24V irrigation valve control wires?

I think that's a good question, and for me only generates more questions. I assume there's no safety issue at the 24 volt level. I wonder what NEC says about it, don't know offhand. The 24 VAC wire will surely generate a 60 Hz. field when energized. In theory, the twisted pairs should cancel it out. Does reality match the theory? There will be switching transients when the valves go on and off, but they are so infrequent that I wouldn't consider them a problem even if they momentarily glitch the data stream. Most of my buried conduits carry multiple cat6 cables and are 1-1/4 or 1-1/2. I went down to 1" only when I was confident that there wouldn't be more than 2 or 3 cables. It's a bummer than PVC has gotten so expensive.

 

[Virga]

Thank you @fergenheimer and @tigerwillow1.

The major cost will be the trenching operation and closing up, and this is going to be a one-time shot for me.
Am inclined towards 2", because we all know how regret tastes later. Wire conduits of these lengths should be at least 1½” (in this case 1" for water will be fine, given water flow volume and pressure loss).
When in doubt about interaction between wires, am inclined to stick in another 1" conduit which should be fine for a couple of wires. For instance, in irrigation you can install a flow meter that communicates water flow information to the controller. Specs call for shielded cable and one would think that it should be fine in the same conduit with valve control wires. But there appears to be some doubt about that, so am thinking about dropping in a dedicated 1" conduit, run below 100 feet.
Thing is, then I wonder if I am going overboard, and perhaps these conduit $'s will be better towards more cams.

A wiring reference table from Hunter Industries, purveyor of all things irrigation, seems to indicate that with 18 AWG wire one could go 850'.
18 AWG feels skinny, and perhaps I'm reading the table too simplistically and not factoring all the tech variables.

 

[Heavyopp]

I’ve been installing irrigation systems professionally for almost 40 years. Never have I run irrigation multi strand wire in a conduit. NEVER!

I don’t even start to think about voltage drop till 500 feet from the control. Plan your valve manifold locations accordingly. Pipe is cheaper than wire.

Don’t use Hunter valves!

 

[Virga]

Thanks @Heavyopp, would have been great if you were located nearby.
People in the irrigation business around here do not inspire confidence and the situation has prompted some traveling on the learning curve.
Got one each of a Hunter PGV, and Rainbird DVF and PGA valves to check them out, and the PGA seems the most substantial.

Wire in conduit only because it would allow future changes/additions without digging up again, even with spare conductors available.
There is an argument that direct burial of cable provides better "shielding."
Two primary manifolds will be are around 90 to 100 feet apart, and the controller near one of them.
The third manifold will be around 450 feet from the controller, though could get that to around 350 feet resulting in a modest increase in run to one of the manifolds (this was the original plan and may go back to it).

 

[TonyR]

Just be aware that all cables or wires you put in conduit underground should have a jacket rated for direct burial as water will eventually make it into the conduit.

Unless you completely seal all conduits ends and NEVER allow any portion of it to exit the ground and not have access to the atmosphere via above-ground fittings it will, over time accumulate water in the low points and the conductors will be in water 24/7/365.

 

[Heavyopp]

Are you planning pvc or poly for your irrigation system? I am pvc only. I still maintain pvc systems that my dad put it when he knew he was drafted to Vietnam.

If you’re using PVC then I would suggest using this valve:

Irritrol 2400 Inline Valve 1 in. Slip | 2400S

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Rarely get problems with this valve. I have probably purchased and installed over 10,000 of these and still use it today. 1st made by richdel then taken over by irritrol. It is a glue valve. No need to get caught up in all that manifold fitting crap just use 1” tees and elbows and some schedule 40 pipe.

How many zones are you planning? What controller? What heads are you thinking?

How about your back flow preventer?

 

[Ri22o]

All things camera related aside, I really like the Hunter PGP Ultra heads and have been switching my PGP-ADJs out for them as I need to make adjustments for changes in the lawn/landscaping. The Ultras have so many more nozzle choices for low angle, short radius, etc.

 

[Virga]

Thanks @Heavyopp and @Ri22o.

The evolving plan is:

1” sched 40 PVC all the way because stuff happens in the yard and class 200 PVC pipe is less forgiving. Water flow volume will not be enough that the increased internal size of class 200 pipe is a meaningful benefit in this instance.

Controller in service is a Hunter HPC-400, and plan is to use it though will have to add/replace a module.

Plan is to build out all 23 zones, though four may be stubbed out for future use, and three are supplies to planter beds and may not be in service for a while

Thinking Hunter MP Rotators on a 20’ grid because they work on the site with variations as necessary, and have a low application rate. Hunter Pro-Spray bodies.

One zone at 30 psi and others at 45 or 50 psi to achieve varying spray rotation angles and radius needed.

Water from well is the constraint and trying to keep zones at 6 -7 gpm, couple slightly lower and one higher (this one is for aesthetic fun).

@Heavyopp will check out the valve you suggested.
@Ri22o had looked at the PGP Ultra, so far it does not appear to work for my site though things are evolving.

Turns out there is quite a bit to irrigation. Come to think of it, there is a co-relation between cams and irrigation in the sense that both involve distribution/network, location, selection based on angle and distance, and so forth.

 

[Heavyopp]

I’ve never used the hunter mp rotator that you suggested although I have pulled a few of them out. They are a maintenance monster. None of those rotator spray nozzles are worth much and as a professional I will never install one.

Why not use a head actually designed to rotate? Rain bird 5004pc.

I know I’m screwing up all your plans and research. Lets start at the beginning. 6-7 gpm is rough. Is this a dedicated irrigation well or are you running the house/daily living things too?

How much surface area are we looking at. 1 acre, 5 acres, 75x100 lot? Grass or shrubs? Climate?

23 zones on a household well that puts out 6gpm, when the system is running you won’t have water for anything else.

 

[Virga]

Now is the better time for robust discussion than when stuff is in the ground.
Likely will be 16 active zones (23 less three plant beds and four stub-outs).
One well for everything, and some of the zones that I have not worked out in detail yet will be lower volume.
Timing of running zones will be key and if now and then there is grass burn out so be it.
Area is less than half an acre of actual turf, though not in convenient rectangles.
Irrigation equivalent to one inch/week of precipitation is what they say around here.
Tree shading and site conditions mean some zones are OK with lesser water.
When I built my house I had a water meter at hand and the plumber put it in.
Domestic water consumption is minor relative to irrigation and naturally is the priority.
Will look at the Rainbird 5004PC.

 

[Heavyopp]

Also no real need to run schedule 40 for the whole thing. I’ll use it if there is a rough spot but generally only use sch.40 when coming out of house or anything above ground.

Sometimes you want the pipe to break when disturbed. It’s never any fun showing up to a repair where a backhoe caught a pipe with a tooth and pulled up 60 feet of pipe because it didn’t break.

I generally try and avoid doing separate shrub zones. Once again, shrub zones are a lot of maintenance. What is in the right spot today isn’t correct next spring. Shrubs grow, people plant things, just always needing attention. Sometimes it cannot be avoided or the customer will insist. those zones usually get shut off a few years down the road. Mature plants are not living on the water a shrub zone puts out in 6 minutes of run time. Weeds are. If you are a flower person then yes, water them.

The biggest trick to watering with a well is to keep the pump on. You do not want to have your well cycling on and off for 10 hours every other day. Figure out at what gpm your well will stay running at 50 -60 psi working pressure ideally. Design your zones around that gpm.

The rain bird heads just plain work. Buy them as ”blanks”, no nozzle installed. Install the proper nozzle as you go. Heads will come with a nozzle set. The 5004 has 4 low angle nozzles, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 3.0 gpm nozzles. 1.5 up to like 8 gpm high angle nozzles included too. Distance depends on working pressure.

 

[Heavyopp]

And no need for 1” if you only have 6 gpm to work with...

 

[Ri22o]

I also went with these in some areas where the PGPs just couldn't get short enough. I watched a video on the MP Rotators and they said the Pro Adjustable were a much better choice.

Hunter PRO-SPRAY Spray Head 4 in. | PROS-04

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Hunter Pro Adjustable Spray Nozzle (15 ft.) | PRO-15A

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Have you looked into the Irrigreen system? I would like to switch to that at some point, but it sounds like you may not have enough volume or pressure.

 

[Ri22o]

I would watch the entire video, but it will start at the comparison and when to use the MP Rotators.

 

[Virga]

Thanks @Heavyopp and @Ri22o.

I see the point about wanting pipe to break at a spot rather than have a long section get ripped out of the ground. Also the point about low utilization of shrub zones.

I've lived on well pumps for quite a few years. When building my current house I learned about constant pressure pumps. You don’t have a pressure/storage tank. Just like for cams where we use appropriate hard drives and SD cards, constant pressure pumps are designed for a different duty cycle. The rate of pumping is electronically adjusted by the controller to keep your water system at a constant pressure (within reason).

The constraint with a well is how it recharges from the aquifer (from where ground water enters the well shaft/casing). You can control how you pump water out of your well, including the rate of pumping. However, nature is in charge of how your well itself re-charges with water from the aquifer, the rate is not constant, and there is seasonality. For instance, 15 minutes in, your well may recharge at a brisk rate, but say two hours later, the aquifer around the well has depleted (and itself needs to recharge from further out areas) and the well recharges at a slower rate. There is drill report for every well, that states a “Yield” gpm. I talked to multiple well guys and nobody seems to know how long that is supposed to be good for. 10 minutes of pumping? 60? Two hours? 24 hours?

MP Rotators are designed for a low rate of application, which would help more of the delivered water be absorbed into the soil rather than run-off. The “Matched Precipitation” part of MP Rotators would be useful because with head-to-head coverage, with varying radius on adjacent nozzles, the water application rate is the same.

With many things, there are multiple reasonable and feasible solutions, and there are opinions. At some point one has to pick a path and do a good job of execution.