intel i5 nuc ... mini nvr

[icerabbit]

It may be a bit of a gamble, but hopefully it will work out. I took delivery of some bits and pieces the past week: intel i5 nuc dual drive (msata + 9.5mm 2.5 hdd/ssd), 2x4gb ram, 120gb msata, 2tb purple wd drive (already had a spare hdd enclosure, keyboard, mouse), windows disc etc. paired with a touch screen. Put it together, installed windows 8.1 and am giving ivms 4200 a whirl. Since axxon is not showing the 2732 domes and not the most user friendly.

I'm cautiously optimistic that it will work out, as this little i5 @ 1.3 ghz (2ghz turbo) is not like some high ghz quad core i7 monster that has plenty of extra power in reserve. Opted for msata for the base drive to avoid hdd slowness, and futureproofing. Then for 8gb ram instead of 16, as that seemed too much. Did 2x4 as that supposedly is faster due to being dual channel, vs one single stick of 8. 2x2 might be enough, but futureproofing. (also should this not pan out, the nuc could be a small general use system) One could use the 2nd drive slot for a laptop drive to record onto. Initially I was going to do that, but then worried about heat. So went external for recording.

Win8 of course is a bit different, so that some neat system monitoring utilities from earlier generations that just put numbers in the tray or taskbar, don't work. Performance monitor raises the cpu, so after some hunting, found a little program that floats on top, has various options, and has transparency adjustment too.

My two little worries are cpu usage and heat.

Ivms with 4 3mp cams at 1920x1080, on top of windows; keeps the overall cpu needle at 25% ( It hovers 19-20-22-28-30-31) And I'm a bit worried how high that is going to go, as more cameras will get added later, and I have not seemed to record motion yet (rtfm some more?) ... plus we wanted to keep the ivms client open on screen for easy reference. So we would just have the storage server recording and save the ivms client cycles). And part of the issue is, I think, is that ivms doesn't seem to let me select the substream for the mosaic, which might save some cpu cycles as far as downscaling for the viewscreen. Then add remote access / streaming? It could get a bit intense for the little cpu.

The unit does run a tad warm to the touch. The utility is saying the cpu is 67C, msata drive 40C, and worryingly, the motherboard cpu temp is stated as 123C ...
Wonder if that is an error? Or a problem ... May have to contact intel.
May have to increase ventilation?

Network i/o 2MB/s (must have things on somewhat average settings or vbr)

Ram used is 1.76gb

I may test other software too, I just need to catch up on some settings first, ivms recording, remote viewing, updating the bios on this thing (press f7 during boot, but never works with two keyboards tried)

Matching approved parts was key. Plus need an adpter for mini displayport or mini hdmi, which I forgot to order ... then worst buy wanted $50 for $5 cable.

Anyway: intel nuc D5420WYKH, Crucial CT120M500SSD3 & CT2CP51264BF160B are the main bits in this thing.

To be continued.

 

[icerabbit]

Mmmm. This evening the system is inexplicably running >50% cpu (task manager says the system is running 80% at 2.3 GHz). Doesn't make any sense. It is dark out. Less video data. No changes to iVMS.
Only thing I did this afternoon was apply the intel bios update from 21 to 26 and half of the driver updates (graphics, display, lan, audio, ...) figuring maybe with the bios and some of the extra drivers there'd be some extra efficiencies and/or bugs ironed out, making it run better.

As soon as I closed iVMS, CPU down to single digits on all cores, rather than >50% on all four.

 

[networkcameracritic]

Got mine put together over the weekend, the i5 NUC with 4GB 204 pin ddr3l ram, Win 7 Pro, mini-hdmi adapter and 2TB 95mm drive. This is a good step up from what I have now for my 10 cameras.

Takes a long time to get all the Windows updates current as I'm starting with an original Win 7 disk. Even at high CPU it runs slightly warm to the touch but I don't have an msata drive in it. Spent time making it perform, like taking Aero off, power saving mode off, remove wallpaper, removed Win7 widgets, unnecessary stuff disabled and such. For what it's worth, I got a Windows Experience Score of 5.1. Ready for Milestone software that I'll probably do tomorrow.

When I'm done playing with it, I stick in my desk drawer, how many PC's can you that with. Take that Apple with your HUGE Mac Mini, LOL.

FWIW, I ran the Experience Index on my Win8 desktop with an i7-4770 and it got a lower score of 5.0, LOL. The CPU & RAM scores were clearly much higher at 8.2 vs. 5.9 on the NUC. Disk score was about the same despite that my desktop has a 1TB 7200 RPM drive and the NUC has a 2TB 5400 rpm drive.

 

[icerabbit]

My mini might be twice as fast though, theoretically , as my little nuc, but it has too many cables sticking out of it to be comfortable in a drawer. I think all but one port is filled.

Between bios updates, firmware updates, driver updates and then windows updates it can take all day to get a machine up to speed and current. Advantage win 8.1. Less of a long road to travel to get up to date. 8.1 (even though I think the UI is a step in the wrong direction, concept may be good, but execution is poor and style is horrible, anyway) - primarily because it is easier on resources. I've seen some small mobile devices absolutely fly with win 8.1, using only 768mb of ram, meeting the right criteria for instant boot, etc. I haven't bothered tweaking windows on the nuc yet. I've done so plenty of times with older hardware. Haven't felt the need for it yet.

The thing I'm in a pickle about is, like I said, the heat and how far I can push this thing cpu wise.

I've been using something called MooO monitor, because it seemed one of the better free ones that works with 8.1. I guess 8 broke several of them. The motherboard temp it reports is really high. CPU is quite a bit elevated too during ongoing use, with 4 cams on screen. I was going to leave the nuc on 24/7 with all cameras live on screen, obviously allowing the display to go standby, but so that a tap of the keyboard, mouse or screen wakes it up and gives an instant live view of all the cameras. My worry is, that will be too much with 8 or 10 cams.

Using just the nuc for the recording aspect should be fine, but then I need to have a remote client system at the ready for displaying; meaning now I've got two machines running. Avoiding the scenario of grab this/that, fire it up, login in or fingerprint, find app, start client, connecting, etc.

One of my ideas was to redistribute the live mosaic of cams throughout the house. No sweat with the right hardware added, but I just don't know about the nuc handling the live view with 10 cams, without catching fire so to speak.

I think I;m going to need to do some benchmarking between the i7 and nuc i5 to see what's what, because I really wanted to leave the recording machine tapped in "live" with all cameras on screen. On the i7 that took 15% CPU overall. On the nuc I'm at 50%. Something is up. Need to know.

I may fire up Axxon Next again too, and see if that makes it better. I'm familiar enough with it now, that it wouldn't take me too much time to configure it without a manual, but I'm waiting to hear why the 2732 domes show no video.

What do you typically do to have a live monitor of all cameras at the ready?

You have one system record all the time and then tap in with a mobile device as needed? Into the recording system? Or into the cameras? I've got that a little bit with the hikvision ios software, where I added all the cameras.

 

[networkcameracritic]

Milestone has the option of using the sub stream for live view but record at full resolution. So if I wanted display say 9 cameras that are 3MP, it's not like I have the resolution on my 1080P TV to see them all at that resolution at the same time, so I can watch them at VGA resolution each which looks fine on a TV. Then if I want to go back and playback, It's a full resolution and I don't need to see all 9 cameras at the same time. I can playback as it's recording, so it's 3MP.

Also, it allows for layouts of cameras, so I may have a layout of 4 cameras that's the front, maybe 4 that's the sides and back and a few indoors cameras. Since I have 4 cameras I want to see most of the time, that's what I display all day. When I want to see more, then it's going to push the CPU but it's temporary.

Also, for me, the NUC is purely a server, hidden away, only purpose is to record. When I view it's on my desktop or if I'm say in bed and I hear a noise, I have a tablet at bedside, I can quickly start the app, view cameras, zoom in to see things. Imagine turning on the TV because you hear a noise, it's going to wake up my wife, it's going to blind me coming out of total darkness and if there is an intruder, it's going to alert them of my whereabouts.

 

[icerabbit]

Yes, recording will be fine. Nothing too taxing going on with that.

I actually have the dual drive H model NUC, with the idea that it could be self contained, with separation between main drive and data drive.

It would help tremendously (I hope) if iVMS allowed substream for the main screen. Doesn't seem to do it by default or to allow to switch down. One thought I had was to see if I had to add the cameras twice. Once for main stream, once for substream. Group them differently. Set the main ones to detect and record. Then drag the sub ones to the main screen.

I think Axxon intelligently scales down the main stream, to the viewing screen, at some cpu cost. Will have to give it a go on the NUC.

I know you like milestone. I was hoping not to get into per camera and / or licensing extras; just yet. I may have to give it go. There's probably not a perfect solution out there, but if you like it, that means a lot

 

[networkcameracritic]

At least with Axxonsoft, you only need a 1TB drive with the free version. Mine can take an msata and hdd but chose to only do the hdd to save costs + heat/electricity. I have different brands of cameras so I can't run iVMS, otherwise I would.

 

[networkcameracritic]

Got Milestone 2013 installed, running an average of 8% busy (fluctuates between 6% to 10% but stays at 7% the most), so it's as I expected. Half the cameras are setup with camera side motion detect, the other half use server side motion detect.

 

[icerabbit]

Just did an i5 (nuc) vs previous gen core i7 comparion using Novabench. The i7 scores double overall, faster on RAM, more than double on CPU, lower graphics, double on hardware (SSD/HDD). I really thought the i5 CPU would stack up a bit better. Hard to believe now call a core i5 fine for general purpose needs and an i7 for processor intensive tasks; when you consider where we come from in the past 40 years.

FYI for those interested, some Novabench numbers, in case they want to compare it to a system they currently have.
Novabench only takes a couple min time, whereas some others take forever (sisoft cough)

Novabench
System Score: 671
RAM 192 (11311 MB/s)
CPU 359
Graphics 105 (327 fps)
Hardware 15 (64 GB drive, 115MB/s) *

* That last bit has me disappointed. I'm now seeing the approved M500 msata I picked has a write max of 130MB/s. Should have dared to try the Crucial M550 I guess, which wasn't listed. Not a bad unit. Just could be the 3x faster for an extra $25 and score probably higher.

Still for iVMS live viewing CPU seems to be where it is at; and I'd really like to simulcast a live view mosaic screen of all cameras, with one single system.

On a positive note. The NUC running just iVMS StorageServer idle ... is using 0-1-2% overall. Great start for recording.

 

[icerabbit]

Got Milestone 2013 installed, running an average of 8% busy (fluctuates between 6% to 10% but stays at 7% the most), so it's as I expected. Half the cameras are setup with camera side motion detect, the other half use server side motion detect.

Without ongoing live view, right?

But still that's pretty good if it has to analyze 4 hd streams. I presume you have it analyze the 4 main streams?

I'll probably play around some more with other software, in upcoming days.

No word yet from Axxon on the 2732 dome's blank video, which were going to be the primaries in the setup.

 

[networkcameracritic]

That's with 9 cameras (10th is temporary for reviews). I have three 1.3MP cameras, six 3MP, 20fps. No live view, just as a server.

This is not a real i5, heck a Haswell i3 is way faster, so you can't compare to a real i7. It's a low power i5 and that's why I wanted it, 30W for the entire computer or 1/4th what my i3 was using.

 

[icerabbit]

Have you done data review with iVMS or with MileStone.

iVMS may be out of the picture for me, had something I needed to review tonight (unknown vehicle going off pavement in a nonchalant U-turn, driving over some plants in the front yard). One little Foscam recording to its SD and two Hikvision to HDD.

Nuc was on with iVMS recording. Time to hit review. Start the client, try to find the segment. The NUC's CPU was pegged a solid 90-100%. No (forensic) search function by selected area on screen. No scrubbing. Only click in the time bar with vague video response. Fuzzy coordination between play head line in the time bar & video (despite picking today's recordings it shows yesterday's date). Play with manual 1x 2x 4x 8x FF works. Once you come to incident time in the recording, ... all you have is pause. Frame button doesn't work. NO play speed adjustment. No frame by frame back/forth to look for clues. No FWD or REV. No direct way to export that clip. Jumping through hoops, have to start over, FF play searching over again, hit manual record during playback ... recording nowhere to be found. WTH? I've got quite a bit of computer experience, and this small incident review on iVMS falls quite short of modern nvr expectations; in terms of isolating a segment of time, reviewing it and safeguarding it. And, despite identical detection and recording settings between HV dome and HV bullet, only the dome recorded. Nothing from the telephoto bullet ... which had the clear shot of the tag.
AND, despite having recorded some other driveway / plant / truck incident ... the extra little 720p Foscam that's supposed to record everything it thinks is motion independently, to its SD card, well it apparently stopped recording last week.

I think my Nuc is going axxon.

...

 

[networkcameracritic]

I have not been impressed with Hikvision software. I tried iVMS4200 and just this weekend, iVMS4500 and maybe you get used to it, but far from intuitive.

 

[icerabbit]

Probably more intuitive than Axxon stuff, but maybe not by much. Axxon is really geared to live 24/7 monitoring & instant review of data.

But, iVMS reviewing options misses the basics, like how we used to have on decent tape editing vcrs (frame fwd back, ffw, rev, play ffw, play rev, ... ) I can't believe something that basic and essential is not part of their system.

The other thing I just saw is that iVMS only does 32 bit. Milestone does 64. And I think Axxon does both. Had not really thought about it as important before, but it could come into play with efficient use of resources.

 

[networkcameracritic]

OK, got Milestone 2014 installed and ran some tests. I have 9 cameras currently, 6 are 3MP, 3 are 1.3MP. All set at their max frame rate and high quality. Live viewing 9 cameras before got the CPU to 100%, using the Live Sub-Stream mode in Milestone it hovers in the mid 20's, say 24-29% (the baseline with no video displaying is 7-10%). Similar results using Mobile Client with 4 cameras at 3MP showing about 80% busy, forget 9 cameras, it's pegged, but with sub-streams I'm seeing 20-24% CPU with 9 cameras.

When live viewing, it works fine when looking at the multi-camera display. Obviously digital zooming in breaks up big time, but I can go into Playback and watch it at 3MP. On my phone I can't even tell the difference as it's so small but refreshes are quicker, less bandwidth on the phone connection.

Sucks about Milestone dropping the 32-bit option because I had to go in a few installs and upgrade Windows to 64-bit. Other than that, no big deal, works the same and I can leverage over 3.2GB RAM, but actually it only uses about 2-2.5GB anyway.

 

[dr.]

Have you done data review with iVMS or with MileStone.

iVMS may be out of the picture for me, had something I needed to review tonight (unknown vehicle going off pavement in a nonchalant U-turn, driving over some plants in the front yard). One little Foscam recording to its SD and two Hikvision to HDD.

Nuc was on with iVMS recording. Time to hit review. Start the client, try to find the segment. The NUC's CPU was pegged a solid 90-100%. No (forensic) search function by selected area on screen. No scrubbing. Only click in the time bar with vague video response. Fuzzy coordination between play head line in the time bar & video (despite picking today's recordings it shows yesterday's date). Play with manual 1x 2x 4x 8x FF works. Once you come to incident time in the recording, ... all you have is pause. Frame button doesn't work. NO play speed adjustment. No frame by frame back/forth to look for clues. No FWD or REV. No direct way to export that clip. Jumping through hoops, have to start over, FF play searching over again, hit manual record during playback ... recording nowhere to be found. WTH? I've got quite a bit of computer experience, and this small incident review on iVMS falls quite short of modern nvr expectations; in terms of isolating a segment of time, reviewing it and safeguarding it. And, despite identical detection and recording settings between HV dome and HV bullet, only the dome recorded. Nothing from the telephoto bullet ... which had the clear shot of the tag.
AND, despite having recorded some other driveway / plant / truck incident ... the extra little 720p Foscam that's supposed to record everything it thinks is motion independently, to its SD card, well it apparently stopped recording last week.

I think my Nuc is going axxon.

...

Wrong recording date show = likely you don't have your time synced on machine/cameras.

No scrubbing but you have the ability to export clips. It even throws up a notification that it was successful. Exported clips are saved in the ivms directory.

Playback thrashing the CPU - how many cameras were displayed? i.e. Camera 1 or Camera 1-4. If you have more than one, forget about it. A full desktop i7 will choke on 4-5. That is too much for CPU's to do.

____________

Axxon is awesome for scrubing and review.

 

[dr.]

I have not been impressed with Hikvision software. I tried iVMS4200 and just this weekend, iVMS4500 and maybe you get used to it, but far from intuitive.

Could there be more hand-holding? Yes, but it's not that bad.

The only intuitive UI is axxon. Grab the camera you want and just start srubbing video/events/flags. When finished just exit out

 

[dr.]

Yes, recording will be fine. Nothing too taxing going on with that.

I actually have the dual drive H model NUC, with the idea that it could be self contained, with separation between main drive and data drive.

It would help tremendously (I hope) if iVMS allowed substream for the main screen. Doesn't seem to do it by default or to allow to switch down. One thought I had was to see if I had to add the cameras twice. Once for main stream, once for substream. Group them differently. Set the main ones to detect and record. Then drag the sub ones to the main screen.

I think Axxon intelligently scales down the main stream, to the viewing screen, at some cpu cost. Will have to give it a go on the NUC.

I know you like milestone. I was hoping not to get into per camera and / or licensing extras; just yet. I may have to give it go. There's probably not a perfect solution out there, but if you like it, that means a lot

**** There is a bug in iVMS-4200 likely causing your issues.

With the auto-switch selected in the settings (double click substream -> displays main stream -> double click drops back down sub stream). There is a bug where the main stream will stick when it is supposed to change back. So if you did this to all your cameras, all your cameras would now to displaying the main stream and causing CPU strain.

Force the live view to sub-stream. Disable auto swtich in settings, stop all cameras in the live view, right click on each camera to sub stream, and then enable the live view again.

 

[icerabbit]

Thank you dr.

Like I said in the the other thread
I may try this again at some point in the future. I'm testing with axxon currently, because I couldn't figure out the above to reduce the cpu load, between my own brain, the manual, poking around, ...

 

[pcmcg]

Please let me know if the NUC i5 can handling running Axxon. The last reports said it was a CPU hog.