IPC-T5442 (4MP) vs. new IPC-Color4K-T?

[Santeesticks]

@Santeesticks I just acquired one of these 4k-T 2,8mm . I have a short distance to cover and like you I'm struggling with depth of field issues and trying to decide if I should send it back home and get a 5442T since the 4k-T is nearly useless with the distance I have to cover and the amount of blur. Have you opened it and tried adjusting the focus to see if you can improve the close focus better without without affecting the longer focus range you need? Is the low light sensitivity of the 4K-T that much better than the 5442T that you would take a blurry image with the 4K-T over a clean image from the 5442T?

Are you using the AI car / human detection? If so, I'm just wondering how it's been working out as far as false alarms and misses.

@IAmWatchingYou!, for additional clarification, I had a Color4K-T 2.8mm that seemed to have it's close focus set at about 18-20ish feet. I never opened it up to try to adjust it. I believe it was an early production unit and I recently exchanged it for another. The replacement I received looks like the close focus is set at about 14 feet which is what I expected per it's specifications. The video I posted above is from the new unit which for the most part I'm happy with.

At my location, and in my opinion, the larger sensor of the Color4K-T seems to more than offset the increase in MP and to me it appears to have superior light gathering capabilities compared to the 5442. When I had the 5442 set up at the same location, I didn't feel I could run it color at night with the shutter speeds and gain I like to use. If I remember right, when I was using the 5442, in order to run color at night I had to run a shutter speed of 1/60 and a gain of 0-60. (Of course the other settings were also adjusted for my scene and preference.) I wasn't happy with the captures I got at those settings so I ran it B&W and if memory serves, it was with a shutter speed of 1/120 and a gain of 0-35. With the Color4K-T I can run the higher shutter speed of 1/120 and lower gain of 0-35 and obviously it's in color. I wish I could further increase the shutter speed which I would adjust for with increased gain, but I've got a nearby streetlight that requires me to set an appropriate shutter speed to avoid flicker. Is there a little blur with vehicles, yes, but if I was using the 5442 in color it would have to be at 1/60 so there would be even more blur.

As far as motion detection goes, I use a tripwire with the camera's IVS set at maximum sensitivity and haven't noticed any false triggers. When I had the sensitivity lower I would miss some triggers when dark gray vehicles passed by at night which was expected as there simply wasn't quite enough contrast between them and the asphalt to trigger the rule, but at max sensitivity I don't seem to miss anything. If I was, I would probably just adjust the gain or brightness/contrast a bit to accommodate. I should note that I don't have much going on in my scene so there's not a high likelihood of false triggers anyhow.

If you pull out a tape measure and find the close focus of your unit to be significantly beyond 14 feet, perhaps consider exchanging it unless you're willing to open it up and tinker with it (that's beyond my comfort level.) If you need a close focus inside of 14 feet and up to about 4 feet, I'd say you're probably better off using the 5442. Also, if you don't have supplemental lighting and don't want to use the built-in spotlights of the Color4K-T, I would go with the 5442. Based on my limited experience, given the same amount of light, side by side the Color4K-T does better, but you need to prepare for the 13.8 foot close focus rating...

 

[Santeesticks]

That was my thought, especially with having just installed the LPRs, but I wasn't sure how much light was needed for adequate images. Our neighborhood relies heavily on coach lights and only has street lights at intersections. There is typically better lighting, but everyone has switched their lights over to green/purple/orange for Halloweeen.

I think staying with 3.6mm would be ideal and going to 6.0 for the overview would lose too much FOV.

@Ri22o, unfortunately sometimes there's no way to be sure other than to climb a ladder, set it up and compare the images between the cameras for a few days/nights. I have the T model, not the X, but based on my understanding and looking at your images, I think it would work well for you at that location. Before climbing up there, you could change the settings of your 5442 to evaluate how it does at night in color. If it does fine or if it's even close at the settings you prefer, I think the Color4K-X would serve you well there. If there still isn't quite enough light and you can accept using the built-in spotlights that's something to take into account as well...

 

[Santeesticks]

When you change the focus slider, is it changing the depth of view or maintaining the same depth of view and just adjusting the focal distance? I'd imagine any changes to the depth of view would require changing the aperture, which means that more depth of field would result in less light right? Is that the give-and-take that you'd be sacrificing to get more depth of field?

I'm going by what I know about photography concepts and don't know if they apply the same way to security cameras.

@camviewer43, the Color4K's have fixed lenses, not varifocal so there are no user adjustments that can be made. Perhaps there are internal alterations that could be done but those are beyond my skills...

 

[camviewer43]

@camviewer43, the Color4K's have fixed lenses, not varifocal so there are no user adjustments that can be made. Perhaps there are internal alterations that could be done but those are beyond my skills...

Oh I was aware that the lenses are fixed, meaning they're a single zoom level and you can't zoom in or out. But I thought even fixed lenses are capable of changing the aperture (impacts depth of field and light sensitivity) and focal distance (where the focal point is). I think the focus bar adjusts the focal point (focal distance). Not sure if there's an adjustment for aperture, which would make both near and far objects both "in focus" at the expense of less light.

 

[wittaj]

Oh I was aware that the lenses are fixed, meaning they're a single zoom level and you can't zoom in or out. But I thought even fixed lenses are capable of changing the aperture (impacts depth of field and light sensitivity) and focal distance (where the focal point is). I think the focus bar adjusts the focal point (focal distance). Not sure if there's an adjustment for aperture, which would make both near and far objects both "in focus" at the expense of less light.

Nope there is no focus bar on Dahua fixed lens cameras.

You can adjust the iris and that can change the depth a little, and adjusting the parameters (brightness, gamma, NR, etc.) can have an impact on focus as well.

Here was a recent thread discussing how much changing the parameters can impact focus:

which setting causes 5241E-Z12E blur with even slow motion?

I am still fighting with this camera to get readable plates when the vehicle is moving even 1mph. I will factory reset the camera but don't want to do that until the weekend when I have a few hours (in case something goes wrong). In the mean time, would a few of you share which which firmware...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Ri22o]

@Ri22o, unfortunately sometimes there's no way to be sure other than to climb a ladder, set it up and compare the images between the cameras for a few days/nights. I have the T model, not the X, but based on my understanding and looking at your images, I think it would work well for you at that location. Before climbing up there, you could change the settings of your 5442 to evaluate how it does at night in color. If it does fine or if it's even close at the settings you prefer, I think the Color4K-X would serve you well there. If there still isn't quite enough light and you can accept using the built-in spotlights that's something to take into account as well...

For that location it's just a matter of climbing out a window and changing it out.

Of all of my locations this is the only one I would place the -X in, so it's where it's going to go. I don't plan to use the spotlights as I don't think they will do much good for the height the camera will be installed. Plus it would look a little goofy, in my opinion.

 

[IAmWatchingYou!]

@Santeesticks Thanks for the super helpful info. 14' is pretty far and if you're covering an entryway or even driveway from an eve right above a garage, that seems unusable? However, you still prefer the 4K-T over the 5442T? I get great images with the supplemental lights on the property from the 4K-T, but I'm unsure how to handle the near focus issues if I were need to ID someone. Maybe I should return the camera, or maybe I should be the first to open it up and adjust the focus slightly. I'm also consider trying the Hikvision DS-2CD2387G2-LSU/SL (a new model that has a built in speaker as well as a mic, and strobe). I just tested the mic on my 4K-T and with no ambient sound I hear a ton of tinny sounding digital rapid beeping noises.

BTW, are you using a Dahua NVR with your camera? I'm not and trying to get IVS rules to show in the push notification section of my Dahua app, but they aren't showing. Do yours show?

 

[wittaj]

@Santeesticks Thanks for the super helpful info. 14' is pretty far and if you're covering an entryway or even driveway from an eve right above a garage, that seems unusable? However, you still prefer the 4K-T over the 5442T? I get great images with the supplemental lights on the property from the 4K-T, but I'm unsure how to handle the near focus issues if I were need to ID someone. Maybe I should return the camera, or maybe I should be the first to open it up and adjust the focus slightly. I'm also consider trying the Hikvision DS-2CD2387G2-LSU/SL (a new model that has a built in speaker as well as a mic, and strobe). I just tested the mic on my 4K-T and with no ambient sound I hear a ton of tinny sounding digital rapid beeping noises.

BTW, are you using a Dahua NVR with your camera? I'm not and trying to get IVS rules to show in the push notification section of my Dahua app, but they aren't showing. Do yours show?

Try turning the audio noise reduction/filter off and see if the audio improves.

 

[Ri22o]

I just swapped my 5442 out for the Color4K-X. I pulled these snapshots from UI3, but the detail when zooming in on the 4K-X snapshot is so much better. Settings between the two may not be the same, but they are similar. The biggest difference is the 4K-X is set to H264.


4K-X:





5442:

 

[IAmWatchingYou!]

@Ri22o thanks for the comparison - this is helpful. Looking at the shingles, I can definitely tell that the 5442T has much better close focus - the detail on the 5442T is far, far better. For you, with the mount location you're able to achieve, it's not a big deal since your targets will be beyond the 15' close focus range. I'm also noticing that the 5442T shows a lot more detail in the driveway and road. I wonder if anyof that is due to compression or other picture settings like gain. Do have any comparisons pics yet of night performance between the two?

@wittaj I tried turning off the noise reduction filter, but that didn't make a difference. I'm going to get a capture and post it shortly.

 

[Ri22o]

@Ri22o thanks for the comparison - this is helpful. Looking at the shingles, I can definitely tell that the 5442T has much better close focus. For you, with the mount location you're able to achieve, it's not a big deal since your targets will be beyond the 15' close focus range. Do have any comparisons pics yet of night performance between the two?

I think I posted some of the 5442, but nothing yet for the 4K-X. I will mess with it tonight and post some shots.

 

[Ri22o]

Here are some comparisons between my 5442 and the 4K-X.

As much as I was hoping the 4K-X would work. I just don't think I have enough ambient light, especially with the neighbors' coach lights being orange/purple right now.

When it initially got dark enough the street looked like day and I was super hopeful, but the motion blur was horrible when I looked at the footage. After getting the motion to what you see in the video, I just don't know if it's worth it. A passing car gives enough light for that instance though, which is nice.

Also, what is causing the video to stutter like it is? Maybe someone can offer some suggestions on the settings before I decide to put the 5442 back up?

4K-X Settings:






5442 with Tendelux IR emitters under the lower soffits:


4K-X:


Initial shot of the 4K-X before dialing it down:


4K-X after dialing it down and making motion reasonable:

 

[Timokreon]

I would try to use a constant shutter speed instead of a range to see what happens. Like 1/120, and mess around with the speed, then see where you end up with your other settings.

 

[IAmWatchingYou!]

Thanks a lot for posting these - nice to see some real world comparisons and I'm sure others will appreciate these. The 4K-X really looks good until you see some motion - I was surprised by the amount of blur. It's almost like everyone needs one 5442, and one 4K color. Do you happen to have any captures from the 5442 with the IR off? The 5442 has a 1/1.8 sensor but half the pixels to spread the light across so I'm curious how usable it is.

I was taking another look at the pics you posted earlier and also really noticed the huge difference in detail that the 5442 gives on the neighbors support post for the front porch. Everything just looks so much better. I wonder what that is? Have you found any tweaks?

 

[wittaj]

Here are some comparisons between my 5442 and the 4K-X.

As much as I was hoping the 4K-X would work. I just don't think I have enough ambient light, especially with the neighbors' coach lights being orange/purple right now.

When it initially got dark enough the street looked like day and I was super hopeful, but the motion blur was horrible when I looked at the footage. After getting the motion to what you see in the video, I just don't know if it's worth it. A passing car gives enough light for that instance though, which is nice.

Also, what is causing the video to stutter like it is? Maybe someone can offer some suggestions on the settings before I decide to put the 5442 back up?

4K-X Settings:
View attachment 144299

View attachment 144301

View attachment 144302

5442 with Tendelux IR emitters under the lower soffits:


4K-X:


Initial shot of the 4K-X before dialing it down:
View attachment 144297

4K-X after dialing it down and making motion reasonable:
View attachment 144296

So you are starting to see and recognize what we say often:

• The bright static image at night usually results in motion blur. I can make a cheap $40 camera look like noon out when it is midnight, but the motion is ghost/blur city.
• Once you dial it in, the image gets darker
• A great camera in a bad location results in poor performance
• A fixed-lens camera on a 2nd story will not provide IDENTIFY images no matter how great the camera is. Even if you had ZERO motion blur, you still won't IDENTIFY. It makes a good OBSERVE location though.

So a couple of suggestions.

1. You need to decide the purpose of this camera. As you are seeing, even with a super fast shutter, you still won't IDENTIFY, so make it an OBSERVE overview location. So slow the shutter down to the point that you can start to make out color of cars and whether it is a two or four door, along with ability to ID clothing color and skin of a person.
2. The roof is preventing a lot of light from getting to this camera and is inevitably ruining the exposure. The roof is essentially acting like a sun visor on a car, well in this case a light visor from the bottom. Either accept that and run the camera as more OBSERVE and RECOGNIZE or move it down.
3. Consider a varifocal here like the 5442-Z4E or the 5241-Z12E so that you can OPTICALLY zoom in to a pinch point in order to get the IDENTIFY shot if that is your goal.
4. Try bumping the gain to 50 or 55 and drop the NR to 40.

The stutter is a limitation in your system - either the cameras are going thru the router and it can't keep up or a peripheral along the way is bottle necked, or the computer cannot keep up.

 

[wittaj]

Thanks a lot for posting these - nice to see some real world comparisons and I'm sure others will appreciate these. The 4K-X really looks good until you see some motion - I was surprised by the amount of blur. It's almost like everyone needs one 5442, and one 4K color. Do you happen to have any captures from the 5442 with the IR off? The 5442 has a 1/1.8 sensor but half the pixels to spread the light across so I'm curious how usable it is.

I was taking another look at the pics you posted earlier and also really noticed the huge difference in detail that the 5442 gives on the neighbors support post for the front porch. Everything just looks so much better. I wonder what that is? Have you found any tweaks?

The 4K/X sees motion blue due to the limitations I mentioned above, and then trying to overcompensate with the settings. All cameras need light. And while he has a ton of light there, it is all backlit conditions and the black roof isn't helping the exposure any.

We cannot stress enough a great camera placed in a bad location or trying to do too much with one field of view usually results in poor performance.

The 5442 with the IR off will be a much worse image.

 

[IAmWatchingYou!]

I'm definitely curious to see just how worse the image on the 5442 would be without IR.

I have my 4K-T for the house temporarily mounted above the garage on a corner with a couple of zip ties while I experiment with location. I just walked out front and with 2 60 watt white lights on each side of the garage, I could definitely do an ID about 30' out and there is hardly any motion blur. I was originally wanting to keep the 4K-T's out of a tall person's reach to prevent theft / vandalism. @Ri22o not sure if you have any other cameras or location placement and mounting options available to you, but it seems like a better scenario might be to have the 4K-x down closer to the front of the house, and keep the 5442 as an overview camera? That is, if you have enough lighting in front of the house. I'm still trying to decide what cameras to buy and where to place them, so your vids help a lot. The 4K-X/T's seem decent only if you have ample ambient lighting or a willing to leave the built-in LEDs on, and can handle the poor focal depth from the f1.0 lens in trade for getting better light sensitivity.

I think I'm going to end up with 2 2.8mm 4K's with the 1/1.2 sensor (either the Dahua or Hikvision) up front since things seem good with the lighting I have and I need to cover about 25' for ID. For the rear, I'm still deciding if I want to have it lit up or not at night, or, if I just want to have it lit up when there's motion. I have a fence that I want to cover in the case that someone jumps over it. Do I just want to know if a human is detected back there, or do I want to be able to provide a more usable ID to tell things like color clothing, etc?

I'm also planning on integrating my cams with my home automation system so that they'll behave differently when I'm home, away, sleeping, etc.

 

[DanDenver]

I'm also planning on integrating my cams with my home automation system so that they'll behave differently when I'm home, away, sleeping, etc.

Yep, I tied HomeSeer (home automation) with Blue Iris and it works well and reliably (over two years).
For instance, I have a LUX meter tied into HomeSeer (HS) and it changes the three profiles on my Dahua camera (day/night/general) throughout the day based on how bright/dark it is.
HS also manages the BI profiles based on various triggers around the house (house door positions, garage door position, etc)

 

[CCTVCam]

I think IR light reflects more strongly than visible light. So the bugs flying near an IR camera messes with the image a lot more than visible light camera. It's like a strong glare.

Simple answer, don't use the camera LED's. Install a separate LED light either a floodlight with motion sensor (there will be a slight swiotchover delay as the camera adapts although with the latest cams it's minimal), or buy a wall light, put an LED bulb in it and leave it on all night as you would the camera LED's. LED's have pretty much the same brightness limitation these days so a bulb will be a similar brightness as the camera LED@s watt for watt. By having a separate light away from the camera, you won't attract bugs to the camera. Just then leave the camera LED's off.

 

[CCTVCam]

@Santeesticks I just acquired one of these 4k-T 2,8mm . I have a short distance to cover and like you I'm struggling with depth of field issues and trying to decide if I should send it back home and get a 5442T since the 4k-T is nearly useless with the distance I have to cover and the amount of blur. Have you opened it and tried adjusting the focus to see if you can improve the close focus better without without affecting the longer focus range you need? Is the low light sensitivity of the 4K-T that much better than the 5442T that you would take a blurry image with the 4K-T over a clean image from the 5442T?

Are you using the AI car / human detection? If so, I'm just wondering how it's been working out as far as false alarms and misses.

If you've opened it and played with it you probably voided the warranty.