Is there a such thing as a camera system that is not complete trash? Suggestions?

wittaj

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Hello, good morning.

And comparing these two boards, which of the two would have better illumination at night?
You have now reached the stage we refer to as "paralysis by analysis" ;)

You know the answer to this. Reread what I said in your other post....

 

Robertomcat

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You have now reached the stage we refer to as "paralysis by analysis" ;)
Yes, that's how I am, in a state of paralysis, analysing the best option without being able to take the definitive step. Although the decision is in those two cameras that I have put in the screenshots.

You know the answer to this. Reread what I said in your other post....
Read, I've read it 100 times, but the technical specifications in these two cases vary and I think they vary favourably towards the SD8C845FG-HNF.
 

wittaj

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Yes, that's how I am, in a state of paralysis, analysing the best option without being able to take the definitive step. Although the decision is in those two cameras that I have put in the screenshots.


Read, I've read it 100 times, but the technical specifications in these two cases vary and I think they vary favourably towards the SD8C845FG-HNF.
Given those minimum illumination specs do not give any indication as to how the camera was set up (what if one was a 1/3 shutter and the other was 1/30 shutter) to determine that number, you do not know if it is an equal apples to apples comparison.

The one thing we have seen is MP/sensor ratio seems to be the one consistent when comparing cameras.
 

The Automation Guy

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And comparing these two boards, which of the two would have better illumination at night?
Looking at the actual specs for those two cameras, I would have to say that while the performance is likely going to be similar, I would give the edge to the 4mp 1/18" PTZ85448-HNF-PA camera. I say this because it has a slightly larger max aperture at both ends of the zoom spectrum. A larger aperture will allow more light to be absorbed by the sensor. That being said, I think the real world experience would be very similar, so you probably need to pick the camera that will match your overall needs the best. Obviously having 4k resolution can be a huge advantage if the low light performance is about the same (which I believe it probably is).

 

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Looking at the actual specs for those two cameras, I would have to say that while the performance is likely going to be similar, I would give the edge to the 4mp 1/18" PTZ85448-HNF-PA camera. I say this because it has a slightly larger max aperture at both ends of the zoom spectrum. A larger aperture will allow more light to be absorbed by the sensor. That being said, I think the real world experience would be very similar, so you probably need to pick the camera that will match your overall needs the best. Obviously having 4k resolution can be a huge advantage if the low light performance is about the same (which I believe it probably is).

OK, thank you very much. I will keep that in mind.

To the list of these two cameras, I had also thought of adding a third one, which is the PTZ85260-HNF-PA.
 

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wittaj

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OK, thank you very much. I will keep that in mind.

To the list of these two cameras, I had also thought of adding a third one, which is the PTZ85260-HNF-PA.
See that one has the worse minimum illumination specs of the ones you added, but how can a 2MP on a 1/1.8" sensor need more light than a 4MP on the same 1/1.8" sensor?

It isn't an apples to apples comparison.

What you are failing to realize is there is more "pixel screen" material on the 8MP, so two cameras of different MP on the same size sensor will result in the higher MP having more opaque "screen" material that impacts how much light gets thru. So two different cams on same sensor means the lower MP will allow more light on the sensor.

Use a Window for example. Which one is clearer to look thru the one with a screen or one without? The more holes a screen is produced with, the more material there is as well.

These sensors are small and we need to get as much light to them as possible.

An analogy to try to understand why cameras need so much more light - let's look at an 8MP camera and this 8MP needs at least four times the amount of light as a 2MP for the same sensor. The sensor size is the same in each camera, but when you spread the "screen" of 8MP worth of pixel holes across the same sensor, it now has 4 times the holes, but also 4 times the "screen material" than the 2MP.

Kind of hard to explain, but lets try to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it (that represents 2MP) and looking out through the screen is a little darker outside because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has four times the amount of holes (now it represents 8MP) and it will be darker looking through it because (while the resolution would be better) there is a lot more screen material.

So if your house is like most where the top pane is glass with no screen and the bottom half is window with the screen and you see something outside during the daytime - do you sit down to look out through the screen or do you stand up to look a the object through the window with no screen?

And that is accentuated even more at night time. Look out your window with and without the screen and it will be darker looking through the screen than without it. If you are looking out your window to see the stars or the moon, do you look out the part of the window with the screen, or the upper portion without the screen material?

Now obviously as it relates to a camera, you need to balance the amount of pixel holes with the screen material - too few holes (and thus less screen material) and the resolution suffers, and too many holes (and thus more screen material) and the more light that is needed.

Look at a window screen and available meshes. The actual window opening does not change size, so that is the sensor. The screen material is the "pixel screen" that makes up the MP. Which one of these is going to let more light thru?


1675883791761.png



So if you are taking a 22 mesh screen and trying to get the same amount of brightness thru into the house as the 4 or 14 mesh screen, it will need A LOT more light.

A close comparison would be the 22 mesh screen is an 8MP and the 14 mesh is a 4MP. So if you have the same amount of light going thru a 14 mesh screen as you do a 22 mesh screen, it will be darker for the 22 mesh screen and any parameter adjustment you do to brighten it (gain, iris, brightness) will add more noise.

Even if the downrez from 8MP to 4MPhappens before any other processing, it is still starting with a darker image than a native 4MP camera so that will introduce more artifacts.

This is how outside sun shades work. The darker/more shade it provides, the more holes the shade has. More holes equals more screen material which means more light that is needed to penetrate it.
 

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To the list of these two cameras, I had also thought of adding a third one, which is the PTZ85260-HNF-PA.
I would normally say that this third option would provide better low/no light performance than the other two choices. I have no idea why the "min illumination" spec is lower on this model - I suspect those specs are simply not that accurate between camera models. I think the actual low light performance is probably better on that camera. That's because it is only a 2mp sensor that is the same size as the previous 4mp sensor. This means the individual sensors are twice as large and therefore can absorb twice as much light as the 4mp sensor. The downside is the resolution is lower. That is usually a non-issue with a PTZ camera because you can always zoom in to get the detail that you need, but it's always a balancing act between getting the detail you need and zooming in so much that you miss activity that is outside the field of view of the camera. It's certainly a detail that needs to be considered.
 

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Use a Window for example. Which one is clearer to look thru the one with a screen or one without? The more holes a screen is produced with, the more material there is as well.
Don't worry, your explanation is clear and lucid, it is perfectly understandable. Thank you very much.

I would normally say that this third option would provide better low/no light performance than the other two choices. I have no idea why the "min illumination" spec is lower on this model - I suspect those specs are simply not that accurate between camera models. I think the actual low light performance is probably better on that camera. That's because it is only a 2mp sensor that is the same size as the previous 4mp sensor. This means the individual sensors are twice as large and therefore can absorb twice as much light as the 4mp sensor. The downside is the resolution is lower. That is usually a non-issue with a PTZ camera because you can always zoom in to get the detail that you need, but it's always a balancing act between getting the detail you need and zooming in so much that you miss activity that is outside the field of view of the camera. It's certainly a detail that needs to be considered.
What I didn't mention is that my question was related to capturing the image in colour, in B/W mode the image looks different.

I think the best option is the 4 Mpx, which would be the most balanced between a good resolution, and a good light capture setting. I appreciate your comment and explanation. Thank you very much.
 

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Don't worry, your explanation is clear and lucid, it is perfectly understandable. Thank you very much.


What I didn't mention is that my question was related to capturing the image in colour, in B/W mode the image looks different.

I think the best option is the 4 Mpx, which would be the most balanced between a good resolution, and a good light capture setting. I appreciate your comment and explanation. Thank you very much.
Obviously full time color is going to require more overall ambient light to get adequate performance vs allowing the camera to go into B&W mode, but color vs B&W really doesn't matter when trying to pick the best performing low/no light camera. What I mean by that is if you force all three cameras to full time color, they will generally perform in the same order they would if you forced them into B&W mode. (Of course the answer isn't quite that simple because usually in B&W mode the camera uses it's IR emitters to help supplement the available light, so actual B&W performance is going to be affected by the amount of IR light the camera is outputting). However the physics of sensor size, aperture, lens quality, etc are going to affect the color performance in the same way it affects the B&W performance. So a camera with a larger sensor is going to perform better in full time color more vs a camera with a smaller sensor, all things being equal. Hopefully that all makes sense!
 
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