Looking for PTZ for roof with OVER 90 degrees tilt

JoeShmo

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I'd like to mount a camera on my roof, upside down, so I get a full view of the sky, BUT, I'd also like to be able to view the ground around my house. 90 degrees would get me to about the horizon, maybe an extra 10-20 degrees would let me see some of my yard (further out, I'm not expecting to see right under the roof line!). I plan to mount it about 10 feet on a pole above my roof.

A normal PTZ camera mounted on the roof would give me really great images of my shingles for about 80% of the view, which is kind of silly. I suppose I could put it at one end of the house "normally", and then use a fixed camera with 3.6mm lens pointing straight up for a decent sky view... Might not catch the sunset/sunrises though. PTZ for sunrise/sunset, and straight up for the stars and meteor showers? hmm.

Anyone else have a fascination with the night sky?
 

nayr

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black face dahuas have uptilt, dunno how it'd work upside down tho... never tried.. but mounted right side up they can see quite a bit of sky if you have a horizon.. not stargazing but why use a PTZ when you can point a fixed camera straight up and leave it.. settings for looking at sky and looking at other things gonna be dramatically different, you gonna always be tweaking settings.

if your going southernly skygazing get something with an mechanical aperture, it'll help keep the sun from killing the sensor.
 

tangent

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You'll probably get better star gazing shots with a good DSLR. There are all sorts of robotic / automated things out there for this.

Dahua does make some cameras that allow much more tilt and mount from the bottom, they're a little different from your standard PTZ in the category they call "positioning system".
I'm sure they're quite expensive. PTZ12230F-LR8-N | Dahua Technology
Positioning System
 

JoeShmo

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Very good points. As I was typing that message, I started thinking about a straight up camera instead. Yes, fixed with auto-iris would make sense (or motorized iris in some fashion at least). Maybe one of the starlights would work (I've seen the reviews in your other thread). Still want a PTZ for the yard, and doing things on the cheap, so maybe just around $100-200 for stargazing.
As for the PTZ for the yard, was looking at the Sunba 2MP w/20x optical zoom for $269 (507-20XB)
 

nayr

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yep, Dahua 2MP 25x Starlight IR PTZ Network Camera (SD49225T-HN)

Sunba's have a reputation of crapping out w/out warning, and the software is buggy; you get so much more for that extra $80.. Better Optics, Better Low light sensitivity, Better Quality, Better software.

paying $280 for a Subna is throwing your money in the wind, paying $350 for a Dahua 44225T-GN is scoring a hell of a deal.. Your getting performance and reliability traditionally found in $1k+ PTZ's for a fraction of that.
 

wxman

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Sounds like you're having the same problem I am...I've fought with this issue for years, trying to get a good system for nature/sky watching without paying over $1000...

While mounting a dome upside down would typically get the job done, there's issues that come into play...For one, if it's not rated at least IP67, then there's concerns over rain...IP66 devices (most non-round domes) can handle a spray of water from any direction, but are positioned to where the water will drain off quickly rather than pool for an extended period of time. Upside down, the water may not be able to drain with time, can leak through the seals damaging the camera's internals.

Another issue with turning upside down on a PTZ unit is it can potentially put the weight of the internals on the motors. This weight stress on the motors and extra effort it requires for the motors to move the cam may damage them over extended periods of time...

I mounted a Huisun mini-ptz upside down for this purpose about a year ago with no problems thus far...That was only because the whole device was extremely lightweight, making limited possibility of weight stress on the motors and because there seemed to be no obvious places for water to pool. Plus, it was pretty cheap so I wasn't gambling too much money. It works for watching clouds, but it's not light-sensitive enough to be useful at night for cloud watching and too noisy for star gazing.

I've just put in an order for the Dahua starlight 25x to test it out...Not sure if it's going to work for my needs or not, though. Based on the pictures, I'm a little concerned about installing it upside down as there seems to be some decent-looking openings around the movable part that could potentially hold water...and with the unit weighing 4kg (almost 9 lbs), that's a lot of weight to put on a motor if the internals are designed in a fashion that this weight stress would pull down on the motors (can't say for sure as I've never seen the internal design)...I've got to do some inspecting before deciding if I want to risk mounting it upside down.

I'm in a hilly area and have lots of tall trees, so it takes a pretty significant upward tilt for me to see the sky. The 15 degree tilt mounting the unit normally will just barely reach the top of the tree line for me. What I may do is try mounting it at an angle which will let me tilt up to the sky on one side of the yard and look at the ground on all sides of the yard. Other half of the sky would be impossible to see. Not the most ideal, but maybe I'll be able to get by with it.

Other issue is not having a wiper...That can cause water splotches blocking the lens when it rains. Especially if it's pointed upward...I'm hoping that by turning the dome downward and swinging the pan/tilt from side to side a few times very quickly, it will shake off the drops rather than waiting on them to dry. Only time will tell if this works.

As a last note, if you're looking for a cam to point directly up (with 100% of the image being sky), I would want to have a cam with manual white balance setting...My experience with most cams is that when the cam goes to a 100% solid blue sky, the auto white balance changes the sky color to a strange purple shade. Unless there's puffy clouds in the sky; that will usually allow it to keep the white balance correct.
 

JoeShmo

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Yes, I also ordered that 25x 2MP Dahua starlight, not for straight up, but general roof viewing. Hopefully I get it in a week or two; hasnt left hong kong yet. Not quite sure where I'll mount it yet. For the pure sky view, instead of straight up, I'm thinking maybe under an eve, pointing as much up as I can; just above the horizon (at least for now). But as mentioned in this thread, would really need something with an iris control, low light capabilities (pref in color), and as you say, white balance that can be locked.
 

wxman

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Yes, I also ordered that 25x 2MP Dahua starlight, not for straight up, but general roof viewing. Hopefully I get it in a week or two; hasnt left hong kong yet.
Same here. I ordered the middle of last week and was supposed to ship out right away and receive it Monday...So far it's Saturday night and DHL hasn't even pickup up the package yet.
 

JoeShmo

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So I got mine on Tuesday afternoon. my Brocade POE switch will not power it (camera keeps rebooting), yet the switch says its a Class4 802.3at, then drops power. I did manage to find another POE I had kicking around, and that works.
It's been raining, so havnt had a chance to put it outside yet. Still playing with it.

Nayr, this is probably covered in your other thread (havnt read all 20 pages), but shouldn't there be some clear dome on the bottom part, or is it safe out in the elements as is? The picture of yours is without a lower dome, so I guess it's fine. Just odd having the moving parts exposed like that...
 

nayr

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what model you talking about? The Black Face PTZ"s have no domes, all that would do is ruin your night image

My black face PTZ taken countless blizzards and thunderstorms in stride; they are IP67 rated so you'll be fine putting it outside exposed to the worst nature can offer.
 

wxman

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Mine arrived Tuesday, too...Yes, it's definitely fine in the elements without a glass dome. All the motors and moving parts are inside the unit and protected by a water-tight seal. It's designed to protect against a high powered spray in all directions.
 

dalepa

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Sounds like you're having the same problem I am...I've fought with this issue for years, trying to get a good system for nature/sky watching without paying over $1000...
How is the SD49225T-HN workout for sky watching? I'm also interested in this setup.
 

wxman

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How is the SD49225T-HN workout for sky watching? I'm also interested in this setup.
Ehhh...Depends on the time as well as the amount of time and effort you want to put in...It has potential, but lots of bugs/flaws that make it a hassle and impossible to just leave in "auto" mode...WIth Hikvision and Huisun cams I've used for this purpose, it's been more of a "set it and forget it" by just putting everything in auto mode and it adjusts properly for conditions....With this one, it takes daily tweaking (sometimes several times a day) to keep it looking good...Some issues:

White Balance: The auto white balance looks horrible in my opinion during the day. It works great at sunrise/sunset and okay on a cloudy day...but on a sunny day, it's way off! It cranks up the "red" channel too much which makes my grass look brown and the sky look purple. The more sky you have in the picture, the worse this phenomenon gets! There's other preset white balance options listed (Outdoor, Indoor, Natural, Auto, ATW) but ALL of these are the exact same auto white balance. Flip back and forth between these all day and you'll never see any difference. Just that same, identical heavily red-biased auto white balance...The other options (sodium lamp and street lamp) just turn the whole image solid blue and are useless...Fortunately, it does have a manual white balance where you can adjust the red and blue channels and this is the only way to get an acceptable image for me during a sunny day. Problem is, what looks good at lunch time doesn't look good at later in the afternoon; what looks good on a completely sunny sky doesn't look good when clouds roll in. So I'm basically having to keep manually adjusting the white balance values every few hours. Not that big of a deal if you're just casually logging on from time to time to take a look around, but really a pain if you've got a constant FTP upload to the web for the public or are trying to make daily time lapses. Here's an example of a tree/sky background on the auto white balance on a sunny day:




Here's how it looks when I manually adjusted the white balance:



Much better! but again, I have to keep adjusting a few times throughout the day as the sun angle and/or cloud coverage changes in order to keep it looking that good....

Shutter Speed: This was another big disappointment to me as it does not support a 1 second shutter speed, as the specs state..It only goes to 1/3...The sky is fairly lit up in my area due to nearby city lights and I'm able to at least see clouds on 1/3, but the image is a bit noisy...A 1 second shutter speed would have really made this awesome for sky viewing at night and may get just as good of result (if not better) from a less sensitive cam (.01 or .02 LUX) that actually supports a 1 second shutter, compared to this .005 Lux that is capped at only 1/3 second shutter.

Image/Video Format: A more minor complaint, but still a bit annoying at times...The snapshots save as large Bitmap files (typically over 5mb) rather than jpg. I have to open each snap shot and resave them as a jpg...It saves video as a .DAV file rather than something more common/compatible (such as mp4)...The result; none of my players will play the files. Not even VLC, which plays almost anything! I have to play it using software from Dahua. There is a way to convert a saved DAV file to mp4, but in my experience, there's a noticeable quality loss when doing this (image washes out and colors aren't as pure)...You can upload the DAV file directly to Youtube, but it's processing does the same thing (washes out the image and color purity) and sometimes (particularly with longer videos) only part of the video will encode correctly on Youtube. I uploaded about a 2 and a half hour video on Youtube to timelapse. About the first hour and a half plays fine (other than the washed out image quality), but then the second part of the video is just a solid gray screen.

All this said and despite the specs being inaccurate, it definitely has it's pros! As mentioned, sunrise/sunsets on auto white balance look amazing (better than I've gotten with any of my other cams). The zoom is much stronger and the pan/tilt is much faster and with much more range than the Huisun mini-ptz...Wide Dynamic Range seems to work decent, haven't had many issues with images overexposing and the image is very crisp/clear. I've gotten a number of great shots (again, mostly after manually adjusting white balance and so forth).

Overall, I'd give it a rating of about a 2.5 to 3 (out of 5); about the same range as a Huisun, but they each have their different points...The Huisun mini-ptz has the better white balance/color and better automation control, but loses points for it's poor night performance, slow mechanics, limited range and (perhaps most importantly) the high failure rates that have been reported....While the Dahua improves on the range, mechanics and night performance, it loses points on the lack of automation, inaccurate specs and buggy firmware...Hopefully future firmware updates will correct some of the issues (such as the auto white balance performance) and may allow me to upgrade the score to a 3.5 or 4 out of 5 in the future...Only time will tell. Let me know if you have any questions or if there's anything I can help with.
 

hmjgriffon

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Ehhh...Depends on the time as well as the amount of time and effort you want to put in...It has potential, but lots of bugs/flaws that make it a hassle and impossible to just leave in "auto" mode...WIth Hikvision and Huisun cams I've used for this purpose, it's been more of a "set it and forget it" by just putting everything in auto mode and it adjusts properly for conditions....With this one, it takes daily tweaking (sometimes several times a day) to keep it looking good...Some issues:

White Balance: The auto white balance looks horrible in my opinion during the day. It works great at sunrise/sunset and okay on a cloudy day...but on a sunny day, it's way off! It cranks up the "red" channel too much which makes my grass look brown and the sky look purple. The more sky you have in the picture, the worse this phenomenon gets! There's other preset white balance options listed (Outdoor, Indoor, Natural, Auto, ATW) but ALL of these are the exact same auto white balance. Flip back and forth between these all day and you'll never see any difference. Just that same, identical heavily red-biased auto white balance...The other options (sodium lamp and street lamp) just turn the whole image solid blue and are useless...Fortunately, it does have a manual white balance where you can adjust the red and blue channels and this is the only way to get an acceptable image for me during a sunny day. Problem is, what looks good at lunch time doesn't look good at later in the afternoon; what looks good on a completely sunny sky doesn't look good when clouds roll in. So I'm basically having to keep manually adjusting the white balance values every few hours. Not that big of a deal if you're just casually logging on from time to time to take a look around, but really a pain if you've got a constant FTP upload to the web for the public or are trying to make daily time lapses. Here's an example of a tree/sky background on the auto white balance on a sunny day:




Here's how it looks when I manually adjusted the white balance:



Much better! but again, I have to keep adjusting a few times throughout the day as the sun angle and/or cloud coverage changes in order to keep it looking that good....

Shutter Speed: This was another big disappointment to me as it does not support a 1 second shutter speed, as the specs state..It only goes to 1/3...The sky is fairly lit up in my area due to nearby city lights and I'm able to at least see clouds on 1/3, but the image is a bit noisy...A 1 second shutter speed would have really made this awesome for sky viewing at night and may get just as good of result (if not better) from a less sensitive cam (.01 or .02 LUX) that actually supports a 1 second shutter, compared to this .005 Lux that is capped at only 1/3 second shutter.

Image/Video Format: A more minor complaint, but still a bit annoying at times...The snapshots save as large Bitmap files (typically over 5mb) rather than jpg. I have to open each snap shot and resave them as a jpg...It saves video as a .DAV file rather than something more common/compatible (such as mp4)...The result; none of my players will play the files. Not even VLC, which plays almost anything! I have to play it using software from Dahua. There is a way to convert a saved DAV file to mp4, but in my experience, there's a noticeable quality loss when doing this (image washes out and colors aren't as pure)...You can upload the DAV file directly to Youtube, but it's processing does the same thing (washes out the image and color purity) and sometimes (particularly with longer videos) only part of the video will encode correctly on Youtube. I uploaded about a 2 and a half hour video on Youtube to timelapse. About the first hour and a half plays fine (other than the washed out image quality), but then the second part of the video is just a solid gray screen.

All this said and despite the specs being inaccurate, it definitely has it's pros! As mentioned, sunrise/sunsets on auto white balance look amazing (better than I've gotten with any of my other cams). The zoom is much stronger and the pan/tilt is much faster and with much more range than the Huisun mini-ptz...Wide Dynamic Range seems to work decent, haven't had many issues with images overexposing and the image is very crisp/clear. I've gotten a number of great shots (again, mostly after manually adjusting white balance and so forth).

Overall, I'd give it a rating of about a 2.5 to 3 (out of 5); about the same range as a Huisun, but they each have their different points...The Huisun mini-ptz has the better white balance/color and better automation control, but loses points for it's poor night performance, slow mechanics, limited range and (perhaps most importantly) the high failure rates that have been reported....While the Dahua improves on the range, mechanics and night performance, it loses points on the lack of automation, inaccurate specs and buggy firmware...Hopefully future firmware updates will correct some of the issues (such as the auto white balance performance) and may allow me to upgrade the score to a 3.5 or 4 out of 5 in the future...Only time will tell. Let me know if you have any questions or if there's anything I can help with.
got a link to your youtubes?
 

wxman

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got a link to your youtubes?
Already deleted. It was just temporary tests to see if the file extension was compatible and if it could be used to make high speed time lapses...After seeing the results, I scrapped that idea. It wasn't anything worth watching anyway; just tree shadows moving on the grass. Some of the trees are starting to bud now and should be blooming soon. When they do, I'll try to get some nature eye-candy worth looking at and upload it.
 
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