Need advice on cameras and system please?

[squirrellydw]

Hi everyone, I’m new here as I just registered on the site. So I have some questions that I hope you can help me with.

I’m looking to install some cameras on the outside of my house, thinking about 6 to start out with, 3 for out front and 3 out back. One of the three in the front and back I would like to cover the front and back doors and the other four to cover the front and back of the house/yard. They will be installed on the outside of the house under the roof on the second story. The two covering the front and back door will be installed right above the door on the first story roof. I would like them to be HD quality, looking to spend no more than $200 on each camera and less would be better.

I would also like to know what software I could use for this and what type of computer specs I would need. I would like to have them record 24/7. I can build and wire everything myself or I could buy a kit if that’s the best way to go but I doubt it since I have found it’s usually cheaper to build your own system.

So what do you guys recommend for cameras to cover the yard and the front and back doors and for the computer software and hardware. I would also like to power the cameras with CAT 6 if I can.

Thanks

 

[bp2008]

These 3 cameras models from Hikvision are what I would recommend:

DS-2CD2032-I

DS-2CD2332-I

DS-2CD2532-IS

a.k.a. the 2032, 2332, and 2532

All 3 are outdoor rated and have more or less the same great image quality. All support standard 802.3af PoE. All are less than $200 each.

The first type (bullet / 2032) is the easiest to mount on just about any surface and is really easy to aim the way you want.

The second type (turret / 2332) is available with the widest lens (2.8mm) whereas the bullet only goes down to 4mm. It requires a little more effort to mount and aim, compared to the bullet. The night vision on this turret model comes from one powerful LED instead of multiple less-powerful LEDs, but is otherwise about the same.

Both are good choices for a general-purpose cam.

The third one (mini dome / 2532) is a little more specialized. It has significantly weaker infrared for night vision, and is a bit more likely to have IR bleeding problems due to the LEDs being behind the same glass as the lens. To compensate, it is really small, somewhat vandal resistant, and has a built in microphone and SD card storage. These might be the ones you want to put on your doors. I would choose another model for the higher-up cams, due to having less need for audio or vandal resistance.

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The best prices will be on aliexpress (I recommend the seller named CCTV CAMERA CHINA, though any well-rated seller should be okay). A note of caution, if you buy these from aliexpress or some of the Amazon.com sellers, you are getting them direct from China. They will be Chinese region cameras which means you may find yourself with the web interface in Chinese unless you hack the firmware (some sellers will hack it for you). If you want English versions with a warranty (assuming you live in USA), check out

http://www.nellyssecurity.com/
http://wrightwoodsurveillance.com/
or contact the forum member milkisbad who has a thread here: http://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php?257-Good-source-to-buy-Hikvision-items-at

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For the computer hardware, you have some choices. If you like, you don't even need a PC. You can get a dedicated NVR box. This will get the job done but with limited flexibility.

If you want to go with a PC and a software NVR product, then the specific software you want to run will be the main factor. Most NVR software would be fine on a modern Intel i3 system, including Hikvision's free iVMS software. If you ever want to mix and match camera brands like a lot of us do, I recommend the software Blue Iris. Blue Iris uses a lot of CPU so you'd be best off with an i7. Any i7 in the 3xxx or 4xxx series would be fine, though the ones I would recommend most at this time are the i7-5820K or i7-4970k.

 

[paarlberg]

I use the 2532 above my main front and back door and the 2332 at all other locations. I used wrightwood for mine, the 2532 is about $220 each, the 2332 is about $170 each. So the average would be less than $200 each.

The software mentioned above is the cost effective way to do it. I use BlueIris since I have had a mix of camera manufacturers in the past.

I don't have any light bleed on the 2532, it has a nice gasket that seals it well.

 

[bp2008]

I didn't really say anything about lens sizes or hard drive space.... so here it is.

Today's HD cameras work best at bit rates between 4 and 8 Mbps. Assuming 8 Mbps times 6 cameras you have 48 Mbps total data to write, and according to Google, (48 Mbps) * (1 weeks) = 3.6288 terabytes. So you could expect one week of storage from a 4 TB hard drive if you ran 6 cams at 8 Mbps bit rate. Two weeks if you ran them all at 4 Mbps.

For the lens size, I believe all the cameras I mentioned come with a 4mm lens by default. The lens size affects how wide the camera's field of view will be. Smaller millimeter count (e.g. 2.8mm) indicates wider field of view. Larger millimeter count (e.g. 6 or 12mm) indicates a more narrow or zoomed in view. The field of view (in degrees) of each lens size is shown in the specs for the camera at the manufacturer's site. Consider carefully the amount of area you want to cover with each camera, and buy the appropriate lens size from the start because it is a pain in the butt to replace a lens yourself.

Cameras just above a door will be mainly intended for looking at targets just a few feet away, so a 2.8mm lens would work out very well. Without knowing more about your property and reasons for the cameras, I can't say much more for certain. If you have a long, straight driveway then maybe you want one of your cams to have a 12mm lens so you get a good zoomed in view of the appropriate area. Cameras on the 2nd story eave will be pretty far from their targets, and pretty high up. This is great if you just want to know what was where, but not if you want to identify someone. If you want to identify people, you honestly want the cameras as low as possible because a high-up camera will be defeated by something as simple as the person looking down, and even a first-story roof cam can be defeated by a hat. But also if your cameras are within reach, they are easily vandalized or stolen so there are definite tradeoffs.

 

[bp2008]

I use the 2532 above my main front and back door and the 2332 at all other locations. I used wrightwood for mine, the 2532 is about $220 each, the 2332 is about $170 each. So the average would be less than $200 each.

The software mentioned above is the cost effective way to do it. I use BlueIris since I have had a mix of camera manufacturers in the past.

I don't have any light bleed on the 2532, it has a nice gasket that seals it well.

Glad to hear there was no light bleed. Usually this is the case. But it has been known to happen more often with domes.

Yikes. I just looked at wrightwood and nellys' prices and warranties and it isn't looking very good for them.

Nellys includes 3 year warranty, but costs the most.
Wrightwood includes ~1 year warranty, costs a bit less.
LTS (via milkisbad) on the other hand includes a 3 year warranty and costs significantly less than either. I guess that is because their business targets security professionals so they don't have a support staff...?

And then of course there is aliexpress as mentioned before, which gives you no warranty and slow shipping but the biggest savings by a large margin. (and Chinese region cameras)

I've purchased from all 4 of these places and never had any problems with any of them, FYI.

 

[squirrellydw]

thank you for the great help and links. I think I will go with building a PC but if I don't what NVR box would you recommend?

As for mounting the cameras under the eave it is just easier to mount them there then on the side of the house. I don't have any security issues currently where I live but you never know. Where else do people mount them on a two story house?

When the cameras are recording at night do you see the LED light on the camera, not sure how that works?

Also how do you hack the firmware so it's in english?

Has anyone recently build a PC that would work with what I want to do, would like to see what they used

 

[bp2008]

3 or 4 TB will be fine if you only need a few days of recording time. Blue Iris will record to more than one disk if you want, though it isn't very efficient in doing this. The typical solution for multiple hard drives is to merge the drives together with RAID or some kind of disk pooling software. Windows 8 can do this natively with Storage Spaces. I'm pretty sure all dedicated NVR hardware does this too.

It is easy to mount cameras on walls, too. It does help if the surface is flat and solid though. I mounted a 2332 on my vinyl siding and it could have gone better. The 2332 expects to be mounted on a hard, flat surface I guess, because it has this removable plastic ring that goes around the base of the camera to hide the screws. But vinyl siding is fairly flexible, so when screwing down the camera it sinks into the siding a bit. The ring won't quite fit on the camera anymore because the siding gets in the way. This wouldn't be an issue with a bullet cam.

The infrared LEDs are very slightly visible at night. They appear as a very dim red glow. It is enough to easily locate a camera if you know what you're looking for, but not much more.

 

[paarlberg]

Mine is actually a 3332, not a 2332.

 

[bp2008]

I'm not even sure what the difference is, if there is one...

 

[squirrellydw]

thanks again bp2008, I edited my last post while you were responding I guess. Could you answer

what NVR box would you recommend if I don't build a PC

Also how do you hack the firmware so it's in english?

Has anyone recently build a PC that would work with what I want to do, would like to see what they used

 

[bp2008]

No idea about the NVR box. I don't use them myself. Something from Hikvision, if used with Hikvision cameras, though. Milkisbad has a variety of them and could probably recommend one.

Typically you use a hex editor to replace certain portions of a firmware image before you upload it to the camera. Here is one example: http://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php?162-How-to-hack-5-1-2-firmware-on-China-region-cameras-to-English Alternatively you could buy CBX's region change program to permanently change Chinese region cameras to English.

For a Blue Iris PC, besides buying the fastest CPU you can afford, 8 GB of RAM and a lot of storage space is really all else that matters. Good system cooling is a plus, since you'll run it pretty heavily 24 hours a day. The same is true for any other NVR PC really, except CPU speed doesn't matter as much for most other software. Often you can find used/refurbished business-class systems with i7-4xxx CPUs, 8+ GB of RAM, and 500GB-1TB of hard drive space for $500 give or take $100, including a 3 year next-business-day warranty. The 3 year warranty in particular is a bit harder to find, but really nice to have.

 

[squirrellydw]

So where would you mount the cameras on my house?

 

[paarlberg]

I would mount 1 between the garage doors just above the header facing the drive. Mount 1 next to the front door on the garage wall facing the door and right side.

Do you have access to the ceiling in the porch on the back? Possibly via the garage ceiling? Might be able to get conduit from the garage inside the ceiling of the porch to a point on the back wall.

if you have a crawl space, might be able to access it via the garage and then you could run out to any place you need with conduit and paint to match the house.

 

[bp2008]

Hmm. Lots of tall vegetation, so a second story cam or two might actually come in handy. Here is what I would consider. Keep in mind I am not a professional camera installer or system designer.

I would probably first install a motion activated driveway light between the garage doors, like on my house here.



Something like this: http://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00002N7FP

Above this spotlight, I'd put a wide angle camera (2.8mm or 4mm lens) to provide low detail coverage of the entire driveway and a significant amount of the front yard. Make sure there are no obstructions anywhere near the IR (Infrared) light path from the camera's LEDs. If IR reflects strongly off a nearby object (like the eave of the house or the backside of the spotlight bulbs), it will scatter back at the camera and cause unwanted image issues like a lens flare or a "foggy" appearance. Kind of like having a bright light source pointed directly at the camera.

For example, look at my picture above. None of the cameras in this picture have IR reflection problems, but some are really close. Both of the dark colored bullet cams above the motion-activated spotlight were really close to having IR reflection issues. See, my eave has a small lip jutting down, and even though it was not visible in the camera's picture, IR would reflect very strongly off this eave and back into the camera, causing a foggy/washed out image. Until I pointed the cams down a little bit, so the IR didn't hit the eave. The white bullet cam above doesn't have infrared, so it wasn't an issue there. The round white cam on the right is a Hikvision 2332 which could easily have had an IR reflection issue if it was mounted just a few inches closer to the lamp... or if it was pointed more towards the lamp.

So keep this stuff in mind when you choose camera locations. If there is any doubt about whether there will be IR reflection problems or not, then try your desired location first by hand, using a phone or something to view the live video over WiFi. Don't do your final mounting until you know it will work the way you want it to. An inch difference or a slight angle adjustment can be all it takes to turn a bad location into a good location.

Ok, with all that said, I've only suggested one camera location. A wide angle cam won't be able to read a license plate unless it gets really close, or do a very good job of identifying a person very far out. So I'd also consider putting a narrow lens camera (12mm) either right next to the first one, or up on the second story corner directly above the middle of the garage, pointing down at the driveway. I'd probably choose the lower installation point not only because it is easier but because it is closer to the target area and gets a better angle on things. However if you regularly park vehicles in your driveway then the higher mounting point would help to see over them.

Obviously you want one cam at each of your doors. Probably 2.8mm lenses for these, as anyone who walks up to either door will be getting pretty close to the camera so you don't need a longer lens to capture details. For the front door particularly, there are some options. You can put a cam at the door, facing outward, or you could put one on the side of the garage facing back in toward your house. This position may allow you to see packages on your doorstep which is a big plus IMHO.

For the remaining cams, I'd use 2.8mm lenses up on the second story eaves, and try to cover as much area as possible with them. They won't be much good for identifying a person but they will fill in some massive blind spots without making you install an excessive number of cameras.

I've attached a modified version of your house pictures with dots on the suggested locations.

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Later on, you'll probably want more cameras... they are fun. I currently run 20 cams and as you can see here some of them are in my garage.

 

[squirrellydw]

thanks for the ideas guys and bp2008 thanks for the IR info and suggested lenses. So two more questions, what cameras that you recommend earlier would you use and where?

Also I'm a little confused about the front door cam location. I thought it would be mount above the door looking down and out towards the front but you also suggested having it mounted on the garage wall facing the door?? How will that identify someone? Also if it's mounted on the ceiling above the door facing out wouldn't I also be able to see and packages left at the door?

 

[bp2008]

If it is legal for security cameras to record audio in your state, I'd try to use the 2532 model at the doors.

Otherwise, it is really a matter of personal preference. If you like the looks of one camera over the other, then go with the one you like. Otherwise the main differences are camera size, ease of install, and lens options. The 2032 is smaller, easier to install, and often cheaper to buy, but the downside is they don't have a 2.8mm lens option.

In my camera grid some posts above, 9 of the cameras are 2032 bullets all with 4mm lenses, running 1920x1080 for an angle of view of 79 degrees. You can tell which are this type of camera if you inspect the timestamps. The timestamp on the Hikvision cameras often has both black and white lettering depending on the background.

The 2nd row middle camera is my one and only 2332 turret. It has a 2.8mm lens running 2048x1536 resolution, the angle of view is 86 degrees (it would be 98.5 degrees if I used 1920x1080 resolution on it). I don't have anything against the turrets, in fact if they had come out sooner I would have bought several more of them for their wider angle lenses, and fewer bullet cameras.

Either way, I'm happy with all my Hikvision cameras and I'm sure you will be too.

 

[squirrellydw]

thank you very much, you have been a great help.

 

[squirrellydw]

OK, one more question. What Dahua cameras would you recommend that are similar to HikVison?