Need advice on cameras...CAT6 may or may not be possible!

[Stealth22]

Hey all,

I've been doing some reading on this forum, as I'm looking to install some IP cameras in my house. Problem is, while most rooms in the interior of the house are wired with CAT5e, the exterior is not.

The company that originally wired the house when it was built say they can't do it because there are no paths for them to run the wires on the inside, and they refuse to run wires on the outside of the house. I've got another vendor coming out next week to see if its possible and to give an estimate, and waiting on replies from a couple others. My plan, if possible, is going to be to build a new desktop (or re-purpose my old i7 tower), and run BlueIris on it to handle the recording.

Now for the cameras...of course, being in IT, my preference is to buy a PoE switch, and run CAT6 out to the camera locations. IF that is not going to be possible, then that either severely limits my options, or puts the brakes on this project completely. From the reading I've been doing here, wireless cameras are complete pieces of crap that should not be used for any recording, unless you just want to look at the live camera feed from time to time.

If running new CAT6 lines isn't going to happen, is powerline networking an option at all? I mean, the cameras still need power, hence my preference to run CAT6. I read someone post that powerline networking is a much better option compared to wireless cameras.

But the one thing I haven't been able to find an answer to is, do powerline adapters work outdoors? Keep in mind, I live in Canada, where temperatures in the winter routinely go down to -20 or -25 degrees Celsius. Extremes would be -35 or -40, but that's more rare. I just did a quick Google search for powerline ethernet, and I found a TRENDnet unit on Amazon, which according to the specs, can be stored at -20C, but it's minimum operating temp is 0. Are there other models that will work outside in the winter?

Also, I've been reading here that Foscam units are mostly junk, and Hikvisions appear to be the best bang for your buck. Last question...how do you tell, when purchasing a Hikvision camera, that you're getting a real US/English version, and not just a Chinese camera with hacked firmware? Some of the listings I've seen, particularly on Amazon, are pretty ambiguous in that regard.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[bp2008]

Hello. Welcome! See my replies in red text below.

Hey all,

I've been doing some reading on this forum, as I'm looking to install some IP cameras in my house. Problem is, while most rooms in the interior of the house are wired with CAT5e, the exterior is not.

The company that originally wired the house when it was built say they can't do it because there are no paths for them to run the wires on the inside, and they refuse to run wires on the outside of the house. I've got another vendor coming out next week to see if its possible and to give an estimate, and waiting on replies from a couple others.

Of course, being in IT, my preference is to buy a PoE switch, and run CAT6 out to the camera locations. IF that is not going to be possible, then that either severely limits my options, or puts the brakes on this project completely. From the reading I've been doing here, wireless cameras are complete pieces of crap that should not be used for any recording, unless you just want to look at the live camera feed from time to time.

They aren't always crap, but often, yes.

If running new CAT6 lines isn't going to happen, is powerline networking an option at all? I mean, the cameras still need power, hence my preference to run CAT6. I read someone post that powerline networking is a much better option compared to wireless cameras.

Definitely an option. Powerline networking isn't perfect and often won't deliver anything close to the advertised speeds, but it won't interfere with wifi or receive interference from wifi. It will interfere a lot with certain lower frequency communications, so you might piss off the local HAMs if you have any radio operators across the street. LOL.

But the one thing I haven't been able to find an answer to is, do powerline adapters work outdoors? Keep in mind, I live in Canada, where temperatures in the winter routinely go down to -20 or -25 degrees Celsius. Extremes would be -35 or -40, but that's more rare. I just did a quick Google search for powerline ethernet, and I found a TRENDnet unit on Amazon, which according to the specs, can be stored at -20C, but it's minimum operating temp is 0. Are there other models that will work outside in the winter?

I do not know about cold weather usage, since I am only using one kit indoors, but I expect if it is reasonably sheltered (in a box) then it would probably be fine. Better if the box is insulated and maybe even heated. Just don't plug one into a surge protector because those tend to filter out the network signals. If you need an extra power outlet, get a powerline adapter that has a pass-through outlet on it, or get a simple no-surge-protection outlet multiplier.

Also, I've been reading here that Foscam units are mostly junk, and Hikvisions appear to be the best bang for your buck. Last question...how do you tell, when purchasing a Hikvision camera, that you're getting a real US/English version, and not just a Chinese camera with hacked firmware? Some of the listings I've seen, particularly on Amazon, are pretty ambiguous in that regard.

What you've read is mostly true. Dahua has some good cameras at good prices too, but Hikvision is more popular around here. There is nothing wrong with a Chinese camera if you use an NVR that doesn't care (like a PC running Blue Iris or a Hikvision NVR that is also Chinese and hacked to english). Just don't try to update the firmware if you have a Chinese cam -- Chinese Hikvision cams have the letters "CH" around the middle of the serial number. Western region cams have "WR" instead.

If you want to be certain you are going to get a real western region camera, buy from a trusted seller; I don't know if Nelly's Security can ship to Canada or if it would be cost effective for you with your import duty, but they would be a trustworthy seller. Forum member milkisbad also works for a USA-based seller and may be able to help. Again, I am not sure since you are in Canada.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Stealth22]

Hello. Welcome! See my replies in red text below.

Thanks for the reply! That helps a lot!

I checked into Nelly's...looks like they do ship to Canada for an additional cost. I pretended to add 7 or 8 cameras to the cart, and it quoted me about $50 USD extra, which isn't terrible. Looks like they have a 5% promo for IPCT members too, which basically negates the shipping!

The currency exchange is the difficult part since the Canadian dollar isn't doing so hot right now. Although buying them from the States, even after the currency exchange, still looks to be cheaper than a Canadian dealer that I found online.

I guess I'll have to wait and see about the wiring, then. That's my first problem. If I can find a vendor that can do the wiring at a decent price, the cameras look to be the easy part.

Meanwhile, if anyone knows if powerline adapters work outdoors, that would be great.

Also, I found this set of 2 cams on the Canadian Costco website: http://www.costco.ca/Swann™---1080p-2-Pack-HD-NVR-IP-Bullet-Cameras.product.100148894.html

They look pretty similar to the Hikvision bullet cams, but I'm not sure. Are they just re-badged Hikvisions, or would they be a completely different product?

Thanks!

 

[fenderman]

You can run ethernet in wall in almost any structure...find a low voltage contractor (try phone guys or true alarm guys(not the wifi sticky type installers).

 

[Stealth22]

You can run ethernet in wall in almost any structure...find a low voltage contractor (try phone guys or true alarm guys(not the wifi sticky type installers).

Thanks...I figured that what I want to do has to be possible. I should know more by the end of next week after I've had an installer or two come out to have a look.

EDIT: @bp2008, I replied to your post as well, but I got a message saying my post needed to be approved by a mod. This one went up immediately. Thanks for your advice as well! I checked into Nelly's, and their shipping is pretty reasonable. Even after the currency exchange ($1 USD = $1.32 CAD right now!!) and shipping, they're cheaper than a Canadian dealer I found!

 

[bp2008]

The costco cams look like Hikvision 2MP to me, and those aren't bad but you might be able to find 4MP with WDR (wide dynamic range; good for a lot of outdoor scenes) for close to the same price. I'm not sure how the price compares after currency conversion, import fees, etc.

 

[Stealth22]

The costco cams look like Hikvision 2MP to me, and those aren't bad but you might be able to find 4MP with WDR (wide dynamic range; good for a lot of outdoor scenes) for close to the same price. I'm not sure how the price compares after currency conversion, import fees, etc.

It will be slightly more, but not a huge amount. Once I get an idea of the wiring cost, I can plan the cameras accordingly.

I still need to learn more about things like WDR and lens size.

 

[tomw]

It may seem like a last resort, but assuming you have plaster walls, it is extremely easy to cut a hole and run the cable down then plaster over the hole. Extremely easy.

I did my brick vaneer the hard way but now if I need to run an extra cable, just cut a hole in the plaster to get access and then repair & paint. Done in half the time.

Plenty of videos of this on youtube.

 

[Stealth22]

It may seem like a last resort, but assuming you have plaster walls, it is extremely easy to cut a hole and run the cable down then plaster over the hole. Extremely easy.

I did my brick vaneer the hard way but now if I need to run an extra cable, just cut a hole in the plaster to get access and then repair & paint. Done in half the time.

Plenty of videos of this on youtube.

Yeah, it doesn't seem like it will be too difficult. Should know more next week.

 

[Stealth22]

The costco cams look like Hikvision 2MP to me, and those aren't bad but you might be able to find 4MP with WDR (wide dynamic range; good for a lot of outdoor scenes) for close to the same price. I'm not sure how the price compares after currency conversion, import fees, etc.

Is there any advantage to buying a camera that's >2MP if I only intend to record at 1080p? (i.e. Would a 3MP or 4MP cam have a sensor that's capable of a 'better' image at 1080p?)

 

[Abbell]

I have run a fair share of wiring and repaired more than enough "ugly" jobs. The worst was a client who lived in a home that was once owned by a concrete contractor. I kid you not, the entire house including the basement ceiling was concrete...ack!

Some cameras can be purchased with "deep bases" which means you can keep the larger connector stored inside the camera. You can also run conduit to access points and when properly painted they are barely able to be seen. But Fenderman is right, any company that is worth a darn that does low voltage installs should be able to run cable through almost any structure. My own house was easier because I have vinyl siding... just run up underneath and then a 18" drill bit and fiberglass rods to finish it.

 

[nayr]

why not record at full resolution? forget your home theatre calculations, for IPCams its all about pixels and the more pixels you have of a face the more likely your going to get an ID.. all things equal I'd take double the pixels and half the framerate for most every environment.

so a 2MP capture and a 4MP capture of the same scene you'll get 2x the detail when you blow up the face.

all those shitty camera captures the news posts and you think, well good fucking luck that guy's own mother wouldn't recognize them.. is because they went with wide angle and low resolution, horrible combination when you need that ID.. if you go high resolution you can do wide angle within a somewhat reasonable range, 10-15ft.. otherwise you need to zoom and that means your installing more cameras to get good coverage.

only thing to watch out for is some high MP cameras have poorer low light specs than there 1080p counterparts, but if you have adequate external lighting that might not be a concern.. and thats not a hard fast rule, there are 5MP sensors out now that kick some ass in low light, they use bigger sensors.. if you keep the ccd the same size and just increase sensitivity it hurts low light as your trying to get more data out of the same amount of photons.. if you scale the sensor up proportionally you gain performance as more light can land on it.. but more light means more over exposure and that requires more processing of the image (Higher WDR) and now your looking at the more expensive 'Starlight' capable cameras that are really only needed for very low light environments.

ps: great work reading and researching before posting, props.

 

[Stealth22]

[snip]

Thanks for the advice! Just planning out the costs and other stuff right now. I'm probably going to have more questions for you pretty soon!

What kind of processing power am I going to need for 8 cams at between 2 and 4 MP? I've got an old desktop that has an i7 2600 (Sandy Bridge..it MIGHT be a 2600K) and 16GB of RAM. Enough?

 

[Abbell]

That should be good for starters.... you can use that and see how it handles works. With the right settings you should be fine. My system hovers around 31% cpu usage, but I am not running 8 MP cams...yet.

 

[Stealth22]

That should be good for starters.... you can use that and see how it handles works. With the right settings you should be fine. My system hovers around 31% cpu usage, but I am not running 8 MP cams...yet.

Alright, thanks. Based on the reading I've done, that i7 (which I confirmed, is a 2600K, FWIW) should be more than enough to handle the load that I'm going to put on it. We don't get the outlet deals on PC's that you guys in the States do. For me to spend upwards of $600 on a refurbished PC with a slightly better processor, at this point, just isn't worth it, when I have a desktop that isn't doing anything anymore.

Time to do some proper planning tonight!! Almost ready for the ball to start rolling!!