Neighbors upset by my cameras. Help?

Blacktyde

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Looking for some advice. I recently installed some exterior security cameras. HOA heartily approved my plans and said cameras were a fantastic idea. My neighbors on either side of me highly approve.

About a week after I put them up, the neighbor across the street comes over and inquires about them/if we are recording their house or not. We're not, just the street/sidewalk across the street so we can see vehicles driving by. I offered to show them the live feed several times, they refused. We've had some issues with them before, I won't bore you with the details.

Now I was just informed I need to attend a meeting with the HOA regarding the neighbor's concern about our cameras and us taking photos of them.

I'm not sure about the taking photos part. I had repeatedly gone on a ladder figuring out camera placement and angles and snapped photos. Also normal pictures taking, kids, projects, weather, etc. No neighbor was in any of these photos.

Anyone dealt with anything similar? Should I furnish photos of my camera feeds? My understanding of local laws (Colorado) are that I can photograph anything publicly viewable, ie I could legally have the camera pointed right at their house and there's nothing they could legally do about it. In fact, the previously mentioned neighbors had a camera pointed at our house for a few months, but I didn't try to escalate it because it's not a problem.

Nevertheless, I don't want to be forced to take my cameras down if for some reason the HOA sides with my neighbor. Help!

TL;DR: Neighbors are offended I have surveillance cameras. Have a meeting with HOA to "discuss concerns". What can I do to keep my cameras up?
 

aristobrat

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Personally, I'd show up for the first HOA just to listen to the concerns, and to make sure that everyone there understood that the neighbors across the street declined your offer to view what was actually being recorded.

Have you thought about using the "masking" feature of your camera to truly not record anything past the sidewalk across the street?
 

randytsuch

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If your feeds just show your property and the street, I'd go to the meeting and show anyone interested a real time feed from my phone. Or laptop if you can get wifi at the HOA meeting.
Can't imagine they would make you pull the cameras after seeing the feeds.

And this makes me glad I don't have to deal with an HOA.

Randy
 

Blacktyde

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Yeah, that's probably what I'll do. Prior to this, these particular neighbors have made me incredibly happy to have an HOA. I've been here many years and never had HOA troubles before. They're probably just trying to retaliate.

I could use the masking feature (or just point the camera down more), but for me, one of the major benefits of having a camera in that particular location is being able to monitor the street when I'm expecting someone. By blocking the sidewalk, I'd block a good hunk of area the top of a vehicle could be in.

I'm not violating any laws (it's a publicly viewable area without any expectation of privacy), and I feel like it's really none of their business, especially considering they had a camera very obviously pointed directly at us. I just really don't want the HOA to say the cameras are "offending other residents" and force me to take them down. :/
 

Blacktyde

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Great idea, and that's exactly why the neighbors next to me are thrilled about the cameras. I think these guys are more interested in retaliation from me reporting them for loud parties, etc then any benefit of a camera.
 

Fastb

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lol!
With mics, you could document the noise of parties.
You'd need to post a sign that audio recording is underway (to get the consent of your guests), depending on local audio recording laws.
 

Blacktyde

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I would, except for the questionable legality of that. I am in a one party consent state.

I have cameras inside and out, all have mics, but only the inside ones are recording audio. I have signage at every entrance stating "audio and video surveillance in use", or something like that. But wouldn't I be technically eavesdropping (a felony) if I were to pick up a conversation from a neighbor/people walking by?
 

Fastb

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if mic was that sensitive to pick up conversations of people walking by in the street, yes, you might cross the consent line.
If you want to record LOUD parties, you might be able to get a less sensitive mic. Or lower the record level, so you're not recording conversations.
Even a mic in you r house might be aable to document loud parties, but not able to record conversations from the street.
 

Blacktyde

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That's true. And it's been more than loud enough to wake us up in the middle of the night a few times
 

bigredfish

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I would simply state the security/safety benefits for your home and family and let it be known that it perfectly within the law. As others have mentioned, show them the view, and perhaps some stories as @Fastb has suggested where the cameras helped ID/catch the bad guy.

Attached is a capture from my own driveway that helped local Law Enforcement ID and catch the perp just recently. Neighbors whose vehicles DID get broken into were grateful.

I have found from experience that certain less than legal part time pharmacists (drug dealers) don't like surveillance cameras ;)
 

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SyconsciousAu

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My understanding of local laws (Colorado) are that I can photograph anything publicly viewable, ie I could legally have the camera pointed right at their house and there's nothing they could legally do about it. In fact, the previously mentioned neighbors had a camera pointed at our house for a few months, but I didn't try to escalate it because it's not a problem.
The law is your friend in these matters. Get super familiar, and I mean chapter and verse familiar, with the laws regarding surveillance devices in your area. Print out and take a copy along to the meeting. Do the same with your home owners association by laws, and the relevant case law / constitutional law.

Expectation of Privacy

Take along screen shots of the feeds to show what is actually being recorded. Be calm and frame yourself as being the most reasonable human being on the face of the earth. Eg: I understand from our previous conversations that my neighbour has some concerns regarding privacy. I've bought along these screenshots to show them that only areas otherwise visible from the street, or any of my front windows, are captured, in the hope that might alleviate their concerns.

If that fails, and the complaint is pressed, get the complainant to particularise in detail their complaint. Get them to explain in detail what law / by law they allege is being breached by the installation of your cameras. If they claim something vague lie "privacy laws" get them to specify which privacy law they allege you are in breach of. If they run the "reasonable expectation of privacy" gambit get them to explain how there is a reasonable expectation of privacy in an area that is visible from a public street. Of course you will already know the answer to each of these questions before you ask them.

Get letters from your neighbours that do approve and submit these to the HOA as well.

Above all be reasonable, stay calm, and make them look like unreasonable idiots. Also, walk in there willing to bat on if you have to. That means that if the HOA sides with your idiot neighbours, I doubt they will but if they do, you need to be willing to take them on in another Court.
 

Blacktyde

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Most thorough advice so far, thank you!

Have about a week to prepare. Hoping to basically shut these guys down and never deal with it again.
 

Kawboy12R

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Sy has it nailed. Learn, prepare, stay calm and professional, and good luck.
 

Blacktyde

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So HOA covenants have this section: "No activity shall be carried on upon any Lot nor anything done thereon tending to cause embarrassment, discomfort, annoyance or nuisance to the neighborhood." However there's also this bit "...to which the proposed Improvement will cause intrusions of sound, light or other effects on neighboring sites beyond those to be expected in a quality area from considerate neighbors." where they state they will consider the effects of "improvements" before approving them. Also they do not consider the legality of improvements, that is up to the homeowner.

The only local law I've found is in regard to invasion of privacy via voyeurism (C.R.S. Title 18 Criminal Code § 18-3-4056), which uhm... no.

Going to Federal law we have that the First Amendment protects beyond speech (Texas v. Johnson 88-155) and photography (which local law definitions include video/live feeds in) is protected by freedom of speech so long as there is a message and an audience? Not too sure about that.

The Fourth Amendment defines what a public place is (Perry v. Perry 460 U.S. 37), and that public places have no expectation of privacy (Katz v. United States 389 U.S. 347, 88 S.CT.507)
/ whatever you chose to expose to public places has no expectation of privacy (Lewis v. United States, 385 U. S. 206, 385 U. S. 210).

Are there any laws I'm missing where cameras could arguably be used to protect property, etc?
 

Keyboard

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I believe the advice others have given you is solid (attend HOA mtg, listen, explain, keep calm, etc.)

However, having said that, what gets my attention with this neighbor is their degree of concern about whether they are being recorded. Also, the extent to which they're going through to stop you from using video cameras, especially since they refuse to review your footage.

It makes me wonder if something strange and/or maybe illegal is happening at their home. Hopefully not, but they've now drawn attention to that possibility (at least in my mind).

Good luck at your meeting, and I hope the neighbor will realize the benefit of your security cameras.
 

SyconsciousAu

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So HOA covenants have this section: "No activity shall be carried on upon any Lot nor anything done thereon tending to cause embarrassment, discomfort, annoyance or nuisance to the neighborhood." However there's also this bit "...to which the proposed Improvement will cause intrusions of sound, light or other effects on neighboring sites beyond those to be expected in a quality area from considerate neighbors." where they state they will consider the effects of "improvements" before approving them. Also they do not consider the legality of improvements, that is up to the homeowner.
I think you are good there. They would struggle to rely on that section. Again, if they try, to get them to be very specific. Remember that is to "the neighbourhood" not to the individual snowflakes in the neighbourhood.Having those letters from your neighbouhttps://ipcamtalk.com/threads/neighbors-upset-by-my-cameras-help.21048/#post-201514rs would help to paint them, and their claims, as unreasonable.

The only local law I've found is in regard to invasion of privacy via voyeurism (C.R.S. Title 18 Criminal Code § 18-3-4056), which uhm... no.
Wont be an issue unless you camera aims through their bathroom window.

Going to Federal law we have that the First Amendment protects beyond speech (Texas v. Johnson 88-155) and photography (which local law definitions include video/live feeds in) is protected by freedom of speech so long as there is a message and an audience? Not too sure about that.
Stay away from any argument that is potentially irrelevant, and is likely to confuse people.

The Fourth Amendment defines what a public place is (Perry v. Perry 460 U.S. 37), and that public places have no expectation of privacy (Katz v. United States 389 U.S. 347, 88 S.CT.507)
/ whatever you chose to expose to public places has no expectation of privacy (Lewis v. United States, 385 U. S. 206, 385 U. S. 210).
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
That's what the Fourth amendment says. It doesn't define public place. By all means take along the relevant cases in case dopey across the road makes a claim that his fourth ammendment rights are being violated. If you make a claim that is inaccurate in your submission you will lose credibility. Let them make the claims and refute them, with evidence, where you can. Dazzle them with your knowledge. Don't try to baffle them with your bullshit.
 

Mike.in.Minnesota

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HOA's can have amazingly weird covenants.

Lots of good suggestions. I like the one about staging a mock break-in, and bringing the video to the HOA meeting so everyone can see the benefit of having cameras. Maybe even organizing something with the police.


Good luck to you. Please keep us informed of what happens. I've also been concerned. I've spoken to the police, and, occasionally, the police speaks to me about happenings in the area. I've let them know about my cameras.


I have recently replaced the 6 cameras around my house (all mounted on inside windows) with HD 960P wide angle 3x digital zoom, PTZ cameras. None point to the windows of the houses on either side - just below them. My 2 front cameras get the entire front yard and driveway. street, and houses across the street.


Why all the cameras?..... (In order of occurrence)

- Attempted break in. At 2:30am one summer morning, 3-4 youths came up to my front door, opened the screen door, and wiggled my front door knob! It was locked of course. I was standing behind the door with my enforcer... a 1950's Louisville slugger baseball bat. I expected them to shoulder the door in, ransack my place, and possible injure me. I heard one say thru the door... "Opps, this isn't the house!", and they all ran away quickly. I was quite shaken by this.
I've often though since then, what house would they try to enter at 2:30am unlocked, and, how could they get confused!
I didn't have any cameras then. This is what prompted me to get ptz cameras.

- Mail was being stolen. Checks were forged totaling several hundred dollars in 2 local shops. I believe I caught the persons going thru all the mailboxes taking mail. Interestingly enough, neither the police or postal service wanted anything to do with it! Each pointing to the other. The credit card company took care of it and covered the loss. Knowing that, they refused to stop sending those stupid checks in the mail. I canceled the card.
Turned out that the person stealing the mail as a neighbor on the next street. They would send their 3 little girls (6-10 years of age) out to get the mail - from every mailbox in the area! I had it on camera! Several times! The little girls probably didn't know what they were doing. Awful parents!

- A few years ago, I was accused on being a drug dealer by a neighbor because of the cameras! I heard this from another neighbor. Hummmm, I wonder what they were worried about?

- Robbery. Several years ago a neighbor's garage was broken into across the street and thousands of dollars of items stolen. I happen to be out in my driveway talking to a neighbor when a car drove up asking if I had seen anything. Well..... I took her number and said I'd get back to her. Next day I had compiled a video from 3 cameras showing the vehicle arriving, breaking in, carrying stuff out, and leaving. Al compiled together, with a pause and zoom in n the perps and vehicle. She gave the video to the police dept. But, they were older non HD cameras, so a bit grainy. I have no idea what happened.

- Death! Several years ago, the elderly neighbor on the other side slipped and fell on his front steps after he went out to scrap the snow off his car after a snowstorm. He was only wearing a light fall jacket, and was laying there for around 6 hours - no gloves, hat, or boots. It was wintertime here in Minnesota, and, the air temp was around 10f with wind chill below 0. With the high snowdrifts, no one could see his front steps. Later that evening around 8pm, there was a frantic knock at my door asking for help. It was his son. He called the paramedics and his father was taken to the hospital. It was touch and go, but, he died later that night. The doctors said the reason he didn't die of hypothermia, was that his extremities were partially frozen, and his body was diverting blood to his body core. I felt terrible about it, and still do. If I would have moved the camera on that side over once or twice, I would have seen him and he may still be alive. Now, whenever I hear an unusual noise, I move the cameras regardless. The person who bought the place is also elderly, alone, and is having memory and health issues! He's already almost passed out in his driveway & yard several times, and quite frankly, I'm concerned about him.

- House fire across the street. Got the entire event. Total loss.
Checking back thru the previous days cameras for something else, I noticed a U-Haul truck showed up. It was the owners. They moved in a lot of furniture, Large TV, couch, Hutch... AND, also move out a lot of furniture. TV, Couch, Hutch... Speaking to the front office about the fire, I was told that the previous 2 places they lived also had fires! Hummmmm. I dropped it. They moved away. A few days later the owner confronts me about accusing him of insurance fraud! I hadn't told anyone what I had found. He only said someone told him that the "old guy across the street" said that. I told him that it wasn't me, and I'm not the only "Old Guy" across the street. He was insistent, and I stood my ground. I also let him know about my cameras. He left. Nothing happened. I think telling him about the cameras helped. He kind of looked shocked and turned a little 'whiter'.

- My new neighbor on one side asked "What's up with with all the cameras?". He seemed to be concerned about them. I told him that the previous owners, the ones he bought the house from, had their home broken into through a window. I caught the perp entering and leaving, but not the actual break in, because I don't have the cameras pointed at the windows or doors.

- Drugs & sex. It's not uncommon to see cars parked in the dark area by the lockers. Usually, another car meets them, they have an exchange of some king, and both cars leave. Or, someone on foot. What does THAT sound like?
Also, cars will park there for several minutes, then leave. What does THAT sound like?
I've spoken to the office, and they refuse to put in a street light in that area. It's a main intersection and completely dark - no light!

- Police chashing perps. Last year, one evening while watching TV, I heard sirens in the area, and dogs barking. I used ther 'Scanner Radio' app on my phone to listen to the police scanner. They had a K-9 unit looking for 2 perps. Wouldn't you know - the dogs barking out the window matched the scanner! They were between the houses! I checked my cameras, and yup! I saw the perp running at full speed around the corner, thru my yard, and, out to the back neighbors! I was calling the police to report where the perp was, when I heard on the scanner, that they found the person via the K-9. A little excitement - that I didn't need!

- Half naked man walked thru the neighbors back yard, at around 2am, to the front street, stopped, and started throwing large rocks at cars! WTH! There was a police car patrolling and saw him immediately. They conducted a field sobriety test (he failed), and arrested him. He put up resistance, and 2 other squads were called out.

Sounds like a few episoides of C.O.P.S., or, I live in a crime ridden area!

I spoke to the police last year about these types of events, and if it was unusually high. They said... "no, it's about average for an area this size"! OMG! These are only the things I caught on camera, and not everything. There have been many times I've listen to the police scanner about incidents & accidents in the area.

A few months ago, the local police issued a statement to the Township next to me, about a recent rash of robberies plaguing the area. It's a nice area with lots of very nice homes on large acreage (5+ acreas). There just a few miles away!

THIS is why I have cameras. Some are quite evident (front & Back doors), some are stealth. Maybe it's the cameras keeping the bad away. I have no idea. And, I'm not letting my guard down.
 

Blacktyde

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Whoa! That's a lot of crazy stuff!
I haven't had anything too bad happen, mostly weird stuff.

The weirdest was a few years back we found bare human footprints in the snow in the backyard. They came from the back (another yard) up to the back door, then over the fence to the front. They had to hop a 6' fence at least 3 times. We've always assumed drugs/alcohol.

Some kids at 3am got out and started unpacking luggage. Rang our bell. One of them got on the phone, and yelled "Crap. Wrong house!" And they all packed up and drove a couple of houses down.

A couple of packages stolen or never delivered over the years. Neighbors have had some vehicle break-ins. We don't park outside overnight. Ever.

Yesterday I had a unicorn. Someone actually respected my no soliciting sign (or the camera sign? Who knows). Guy came up with a bunch of fliers, looked where the signs are, did a double take and turned around. Never seen that before. Haha.

All the neighborhood cats come check out my milk boxes every night.

But on the crime map for my area, my little section of street is a hotspot for disturbances and suspicious people.
 
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