New Fiber Run

[R. Rod]

Is the commitment to fiber a personal or environmental choice? I ask because depending on the bandwidth requirements you might also be able to just create a point to point wireless link if line-of-sight is clear.

There is a poor line of sight and I don't want to touch the vegetation in between the 2 cabins to improve it (we want as much privacy on each cabin as possible).
I went back and forth between fiber and a ptp wireless alternative... The latter has too many moving parts, and since these are airbnb properties that are pretty far from me, I decided to err on the side of caution and bet on the most reliable alternative.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Once a wireless link is installed, anything from 10 minutes to half an hour, there are no moving parts. Weather, if band selection is made carefully depending on distance and expected weather conditions, is not a factor either. Keep in mind that for many years all telephone conversations that weren't local were carried by microwave links with virtually no downtime.

 

[R. Rod]

Once a wireless link is installed, anything from 10 minutes to half an hour, there are no moving parts. Weather, if band selection is made carefully depending on distance and expected weather conditions, is not a factor either. Keep in mind that for many years all telephone conversations that weren't local were carried by microwave links with virtually no downtime.

Changes in the thickness of the vegetation is another variable for me.
I have to admit I have 0 experience with ptp wireless setups, but I was scared by a comment in one of the Facebook groups where I seeked support:
"Do you want to be in the rental business or in the business of troubleshooting wireless?"

Yes, the wired alternative has more initial work, but once things are up and running it should be solid...
With wireless, I'm not sure...

 

[crw030]

There is a poor line of sight and I don't want to touch the vegetation in between the 2 cabins to improve it (we want as much privacy on each cabin as possible).

No worries, sounds like you have considered other options. Make sure you have evaluated P2P wireless (dedicated link stuff) I wasn't talking about traditional wireless "WiFi" service, but the wireless alternative to dedicated wired/fiber link. I personally love fiber as an option for lots of things (I have a 10Gb link running 60 feet in my basement to a breakout switch so every computer has dedicated 1Gb connection to avoid running a new bundle of 10 cables through my finished basement).

However, in your case there is definitely a different level of cost/effort/property damage required to bury direct-burial fiber than setting up P2P wireless. Since you cannot get line of sight, P2P probably isn't a great option for this use case, I just wanted to throw it out there in case it would work. If you can drop in a robust, direct burial fiber link, get the permits, do the trenching etc, I think you will have a solution that could last 50+ years so provided you can get the return on your fiber infrastructure investment I doubt you will ever have regrets doing it.

Sorry wasn't trying to derail the conversation. Just sometimes a P2P link will work and it's faster/cheaper/easier to setup. You have to consider your time/cost versus benefit. At least you are looking at something much better than typical "free wifi" option where your clients may or may not have a decent experience.

 

[R. Rod]

No worries, sounds like you have considered other options. I personally love fiber as an option for lots of things (I have a 10Gb link running 60 feet in my basement to a breakout switch so every computer has dedicated 1Gb connection to avoid running a new bundle of cables through my finished basement).

However, in your case there is definitely a different level of cost/effort/property damage required to bury direct-burial fiber than setting up P2P wireless. Since you cannot get line of sight, P2P probably isn't a great option for this use case, I just wanted to throw it out there in case it would work.

Trust me, if I could be 100% certain that 2.4Ghz would be rock solid (nanostations or similar) I wouldn't be getting into trenching and connecting fiber.

This link needs to support

• 3 x 2MP camera streams
• 1 smart TV
• 1 SFF pc running automation
• 1 AP with as many wireless devices as the guests will bring (less assume 2 phones and 2 pcs since the capacity is up to 2 guests)

So 150Mbps should be enough...
But I'm not sure about reliability.

 

[Teken]

Just another point as it pertains to direct burial vs conduit is if the area is known to have any rodents of any kind. It doesn't matter if its voles, moles, rats, ground hogs, anything that digs investing finances into conduit offers a higher survivability vs any type of cable. Only you know the terrain and what types of animals are present so follow what you know and apply best practices if and when possible.

It goes without saying pulling a standard CAT6 shielded line just makes sense given the time to trench. In the worst case scenario you said IM gonna throw in the cheapest CAT5e cable in that pit

Sure, why not its there and if anything was to happen to the fiber you have a really cheap back up!

 

[R. Rod]

No worries, sounds like you have considered other options. Make sure you have evaluated P2P wireless (dedicated link stuff) I wasn't talking about traditional wireless "WiFi" service, but the wireless alternative to dedicated wired/fiber link. I personally love fiber as an option for lots of things (I have a 10Gb link running 60 feet in my basement to a breakout switch so every computer has dedicated 1Gb connection to avoid running a new bundle of 10 cables through my finished basement).

However, in your case there is definitely a different level of cost/effort/property damage required to bury direct-burial fiber than setting up P2P wireless. Since you cannot get line of sight, P2P probably isn't a great option for this use case, I just wanted to throw it out there in case it would work. If you can drop in a robust, direct burial fiber link, get the permits, do the trenching etc, I think you will have a solution that could last 50+ years so provided you can get the return on your fiber infrastructure investment I doubt you will ever have regrets doing it.

Sorry wasn't trying to derail the conversation. Just sometimes a P2P link will work and it's faster/cheaper/easier to setup. You have to consider your time/cost versus benefit. At least you are looking at something much better than typical "free wifi" option where your clients may or may not have a decent experience.

I’m at the property today and I was able to take these pictures that, hopefully, show the LOS I have, as well as the terrain.
2 were taken from one cabin and 2 from the other.
From 2 different points I could use to mount the radios if wireless is an option given the LOS

 

[sebastiantombs]

Without some major tree trimming, stick with the fiber run. Either way, it's going to be a lot of work.

 

[crw030]

I’m at the property today and I was able to take these pictures that, hopefully, show the LOS I have, as well as the terrain.

I feel like if these are rentals the individual cabin privacy will probably be appreciated and heavy trimming to accommodate wireless link is probably not as good an option as fiber cable run. Agree with @sebastiantombs and your original assessment about LoS viability.

 

[user2600844]

Being a communications tech, installing fiber, copper, and wireless networks, the cheapest route if not wifi, would be running burial CAT6 cable. With only 150 feet, you should be good. Also look at direct wifi antenna's on Amazon. Even with all the vegetation you have in the way as shown on your pics, your signal (dB) levels should be good at 150 feet. The good thing with Amazon is, if you go to try out the antennas, and they dont work, you can return them for a refund. If budget is no concern, I would run a minimum of Multimode OM3 fiber.

 

[R. Rod]

Being a communications tech, installing fiber, copper, and wireless networks, the cheapest route if not wifi, would be running burial CAT6 cable. With only 150 feet, you should be good. Also look at direct wifi antenna's on Amazon. Even with all the vegetation you have in the way as shown on your pics, your signal (dB) levels should be good at 150 feet. The good thing with Amazon is, if you go to try out the antennas, and they dont work, you can return them for a refund. If budget is no concern, I would run a minimum of Multimode OM3 fiber.

I agree wrt Cat6; I have avoided due to lightning concerns, just to come back full circle after deciding in armored, direct-burial fiber that I will be grounding anyways
I haven't been able to find armored (to avoid conduit and protect from rodents), direct-burial cat6 cables, other than this one

Yes, I was planning on using OM3.

 

[R. Rod]

I agree wrt Cat6; I have avoided due to lightning concerns, just to come back full circle after deciding in armored, direct-burial fiber that I will be grounding anyways
I haven't been able to find armored (to avoid conduit and protect from rodents), direct-burial cat6 cables, other than this one

Yes, I was planning on using OM3.

Actually the one I provided is not direct-burial grade

 

[The Automation Guy]

I agree wrt Cat6; I have avoided due to lightning concerns, just to come back full circle after deciding in armored, direct-burial fiber that I will be grounding anyways
I haven't been able to find armored (to avoid conduit and protect from rodents), direct-burial cat6 cables, other than this one

Yes, I was planning on using OM3.

I was going to raise the lightning risk when using copper cable. 150' doesn't sound like a lot, but it's basically a 150' antenna that has the potential to "capture" any nearby lightning strike. With all of those trees around the property, the risk is very real. I realize the risk can be mitigated with proper grounding, but personally I would use fiber for this reason alone.

At least you are aware of it and can make an informed decision!

 

[Teken]

I was going to raise the lightning risk when using copper cable. 150' doesn't sound like a lot, but it's basically a 150' antenna that has the potential to "capture" any nearby lightning strike. With all of those trees around the property, the risk is very real. I realize the risk can be mitigated with proper grounding, but personally I would use fiber for this reason alone.

At least you are aware of it and can make an informed decision!

I agree when you break 100 feet of any type of wiring. You’re literally just waiting for that collect call from God. Having said this the amount of time, money, and resources to trench and pull any type of cable should consider running shielded CAT cable.

If properly bonded to a single point earth ground this problem is drastically reduced. Remember shielded cable is just one portion of the equation and must be followed by everything being shielded and grounded.

That’s any patch panel, RJ45 connectors, switch, and server cabinet. Shielded cable alone isn’t enough to provide proper grounding.

Which leads to the next discussion of the proper use of TVSS / SPD’s. Any exposed wiring under the ground / in the air must use some form of surge protection. Grounding in the ideal world would handle 100% of a lightning strike.

But this isn’t a lightning rod, telecom tower, or even a flag pole! So even proper earth grounding in a home / business isn’t enough so installing in line TVSS / SPD’s in a layered manner will capture the 90 / 10.

Meaning the last 10% of stray and manageable current flow should be handled by a sacrificial TVSS / SPD. Remember just because someone uses optical fibre doesn’t mean they are Immune from lightning. Because guess what that fibre runs to a SFP / SFP+ port in a switch or a media converter!

Which is tied to what?

The 120-240 single split phase electrical of the home! When people are able to wade through all of the junk science and trendy marketing from A-Z. They will realize surge protection is a thing and real. Anyone who doubts the need to use any form of surge protection needs only look at any serious environment.

Think Military, Hospital, Telco, Energy, etc. None of these professions and industries are buying and using TVSS / SPD’s because it’s the latest fad or rage. It’s used and deployed because grounding simply isn’t enough to capture the last 10% or the Earth grounding of less than 25 ohms can not be achieved in all areas of a building.

Lastly, if the cable is installed that cable can simply be left sitting on the floor not connected to anything on both ends. Absolutely no way lightning will cause damage to something ten feet away.

Good Luck

 

[R. Rod]

I agree when you break 100 feet of any type of wiring. You’re literally just waiting for that collect call from God. Having said this the amount of time, money, and resources to trench and pull any type of cable should consider running shielded CAT cable.

If properly bonded to a single point earth ground this problem is drastically reduced. Remember shielded cable is just one portion of the equation and must be followed by everything being shielded and grounded.

That’s any patch panel, RJ45 connectors, switch, and server cabinet. Shielded cable alone isn’t enough to provide proper grounding.

Which leads to the next discussion of the proper use of TVSS / SPD’s. Any exposed wiring under the ground / in the air must use some form of surge protection. Grounding in the ideal world would handle 100% of a lightning strike.

But this isn’t a lightning rod, telecom tower, or even a flag pole! So even proper earth grounding in a home / business isn’t enough so installing in line TVSS / SPD’s in a layered manner will capture the 90 / 10.

Meaning the last 10% of stray and manageable current flow should be handled by a sacrificial TVSS / SPD. Remember just because someone uses optical fibre doesn’t mean they are Immune from lightning. Because guess what that fibre runs to a SFP / SFP+ port in a switch or a media converter!

Which is tied to what?

The 120-240 single split phase electrical of the home! When people are able to wade through all of the junk science and trendy marketing from A-Z. They will realize surge protection is a thing and real. Anyone who doubts the need to use any form of surge protection needs only look at any serious environment.

Think Military, Hospital, Telco, Energy, etc. None of these professions and industries are buying and using TVSS / SPD’s because it’s the latest fad or rage. It’s used and deployed because grounding simply isn’t enough to capture the last 10% or the Earth grounding of less than 25 ohms can not be achieved in all areas of a building.

Lastly, if the cable is installed that cable can simply be left sitting on the floor not connected to anything on both ends. Absolutely no way lightning will cause damage to something ten feet away.

Good Luck

Thanks for your input.

My current plan:

1. Run armored, direct-burial OM3 fiber from cabin#1 to cabin#2
2. Terminate the run on a fiber termination box on each cabin.
3. Bond and ground one of the ends of the run at cabin#2 only - will run gauge 6 bare copper to the ground rod there.
   1. Anything that "hits" the run should go to the single grounding point.
4. Use fiber patch cables from both termination boxes to my network switches - My intention is to eliminate any current going from the termination box to the network closet.
5. Both network closets are properly grounded - I use shielded ethernet cables for my cameras, grounded at the patch panel, switch, etc.

I don't think this is a bullet-proof plan, but I think I'm comfortable with it.

Thanks,
R.

 

[Holbs]

Thanks for your input.

My current plan:

1. Run armored, direct-burial OM3 fiber from cabin#1 to cabin#2
2. Terminate the run on a fiber termination box on each cabin.
3. Bond and ground one of the ends of the run at cabin#2 only - will run gauge 6 bare copper to the ground rod there.
   1. Anything that "hits" the run should go to the single grounding point.
4. Use fiber patch cables from both termination boxes to my network switches - My intention is to eliminate any current going from the termination box to the network closet.
5. Both network closets are properly grounded - I use shielded ethernet cables for my cameras, grounded at the patch panel, switch, etc.

I don't think this is a bullet-proof plan, but I think I'm comfortable with it.

Thanks,
R.

don't forget what others have mentioned before... toss in 1 or even 2 pull boxes inbetween the cabins. You can thank us later
Everything else looks AOK. A simple project.
Please tell us the entire $$$ tag of this DIY project when completed. It will let other folks get a financial idea of this popular issue.

 

[crw030]

I agree wrt Cat6; I have avoided due to lightning concerns, just to come back full circle after deciding in armored, direct-burial fiber that I will be grounding anyways
I haven't been able to find armored (to avoid conduit and protect from rodents), direct-burial cat6 cables, other than this one
Yes, I was planning on using OM3.

I guess since I don't do this for a living I will defer to someone with practical experience running copper wire underground. I just feel like fewer metal conductors would reduce the risks of lightning getting carried to both structures. I guess some direct burial fiber cables would have both metal armor shield and possibly even reinforcing metal cable in the middle, so YMMV.

 

[Teken]

Thanks for your input.

My current plan:

1. Run armored, direct-burial OM3 fiber from cabin#1 to cabin#2
2. Terminate the run on a fiber termination box on each cabin.
3. Bond and ground one of the ends of the run at cabin#2 only - will run gauge 6 bare copper to the ground rod there.
   1. Anything that "hits" the run should go to the single grounding point.
4. Use fiber patch cables from both termination boxes to my network switches - My intention is to eliminate any current going from the termination box to the network closet.
5. Both network closets are properly grounded - I use shielded ethernet cables for my cameras, grounded at the patch panel, switch, etc.

I don't think this is a bullet-proof plan, but I think I'm comfortable with it.

Thanks,
R.

So long as cabin 2 is where the main service feed comes from the POCO. Grounding (bonding) should happen there. SPD / TVSS that span Type 1-4 should be considered and in place.

Type 3 are point of use and can be anything from a outlet, power bar, etc.

Type 2 SPD / TVSS are installed at the service panel.

Type 1 SPD / TVSS are installed at the meter or service entrance.

Type 4 which is mainly seen in commercial environments are installed in line before any device but can be used in a residential home like furnace, washer, dryer, dishwasher, fridge / freezer etc.

Lastly any communication lines such as telco, satellite, HAM, CB, etc are points of entry and thus always need some form of SPD / TVSS.

So when anyone thinks about an antenna consider how many (IP Camera) wires spanning 50-320 feet are acting like a antenna each and every day and there is no SPD / TVSS anywhere in line!

Just think of all the 120-240 AC lines running around a standard home.