New to NVRs, keen to learn!

[Squigz]

Hello wonderful people of ipcamtalk!

"Squigz, I saw the size of your post, and I need a short version"

Absolutely: In West Aus, have 15m frontage, ~20m side, only 1 Ethernet port to front corner for POE, no power elsewhere so wireless and battery. Well lit enough. Dodgy ppl around, want to deter, catch / ID added bonus. Send help!
Need 1 IP POE camera for front, patrol and track people coming onto property. Street lights are OK.
Also want 2 wifi battery cameras for side and back. Less important.

"OK not that short. This is an intro forum. Talk about yourself."

Well, I'll start by saying I'm in Australia, Perth to be exact. So all monetary values are in AUD, and have been trying to source from Aus to keep warranties and ease of returns or assistance with complications etc.
I'm a control systems engineer and my dad is keen on photography so I understand most of the principles involved, but I often fall down rabbit holes and end up unable to decide between choices in excess of what I really needed.

"OK, OK Squigz. You're on the intro forum, we want to know how you got here!"

Well my friends, I hope you are comfortable and have a warm beverage.


So, I did the adult thing and built a house, and have been in for coming up to a year now.
We live in a low economic area - but the immediate neighbours are great, but there's tales of people knocking on doors asking for entry at 3am under all kinds of guises, break ins here and there, people whistling to check for dogs, etc.
So... We've decided "hey, cameras would be great! And so started my search for some cheap security cameras that would at least act as a deterrent (light, alarm, and if they stared right at the camera like an idiot for a few seconds, ID).

When drawing the plans for my house (that I'm proud of, but boy did I miss a few things hahaha), I had to build a 2nd storey after some space restrictions, but didn't remember to put external conduit around the place - so I only have 1 place I actually routed ethernet cable to for IP (front corner of house, to overlook driveway and front window, far side gate etc. Frontage of the house is about 15m).
Everything else has to be wireless, woops!!!

"You've already used up double the characters others use to introduce yourself, and haven't even started saying why you're here. Get to it!!"

You're right, I'm sorry. Here's how it went:

Now, Initially I thought "surely I can get some cheap battery powered wifi cameras for now right? $30 each and be done, while I research?"
Evidently not. Nothing under 80AUD I can find that doesn't seem like it's made of cardboard.

I came across a solar charged battery powered camera I immediately thought was too good to be true - $160, PT, 4x zoom, 8MP, auto tracking, zone / intrusion detection, solar panel included. Seems great on paper! Until the reviews were heavily polar, heaps of 1 star saying it is crap with no support, all china based and no customer service and does everything, but as crudely as possible (maybe still OK for my purposes?). Plenty of reviews saying they were offered money to take the review down, but never a full refund. Biiig red flag, OK, moving on.

"We have a few sayings here, one is You get what you pay for."
OK, cheap cameras are cheap. Cool, makes sense. YGWYPF. I moved on to looking at POE cameras (no power able to be router outside either), and started looking in the $200-400 range.
Then I found Riolink (I don't want to get anyone started. I'll just say I have read about them here, I get it...). Seemed good! Another 8MP camera, PT, 5x Zoom, motion tracking, floodlights, IR, etc etc etc. Seemed good, but for $400, suddenly I'm thinking "for this price, I can do better".

Now I'm hunting for a good IP camera that can be powered over ethernet, for the front of the house. It's going to be responsible for looking at the driveway and frontage (window), so wanted one that could patrol, and could detect someone entering the zone, zoom and track them, possibly ID them. I found Dahua. I don't need an 8MP camera (I don't think), though low light shouldn't be a huge problem either because I am not on a farm, the driveway is all of 5m long, and there's streetlights.
So was thinking 4MP?

"Right so.... What do you want?"
Well, I wish I knew...

I'm after one with lights so I can use it as a sensor light too if possible (can just buy a sensor light, but wanted the smarts to be able to turn the light off and have IR, only put light on if someone stays in view for a while or comes even closer? Not sure).
Definitely need IR. I'm pretty sold on that (though if low light is good enough, maybe I'll never use it).

I -think- I want a turret form factor, rather than dome. But honestly don't mind, and some of the people who lurk at night are the kinds to take out a camera with a bat, so... Maybe dome is good? Is there a lot of glare from their domes? The domes seem cheaper for the same features so I am sceptical...

I'm honestly not sure what I need apart from that. I am lost in the 20 or so cameras that narrows it down to.

I also read here that the auto tracking is not present in later firmwares, but on the websites I see from Aus retailers (online, eastern states based), and on the Dahua website, it is still a feature?
I've been looking at securitywholesalers.com.au, though am trusting their site less and less as the descriptions don't match the datasheets. Seems copy/pasted with little effort.

I also read about Andy - not sure if Aus and specifcially West Aus people have bought from him before? Is it advisable, or is getting it locally better? Any advice from WA goers who have bought ones before would be great! I am happy to pay a little extra for guarenteed support and easy returns etc.


Apart from that, I am still curious about what I should do about the other cameras (want a cheap one for the side, doesn't need PTZ, and a wide angle or PTZ for the back), which need to be wireless and battery (preferably solar charging).


Sorry for the huuuuge post. I have learned that people on these kinds of forums (I posted on an AV forum when I had a similar thing looking for kitting out my theatre) enjoy excessive detail over too little. I hope the storytelling elements made it more enjoyable than a solid wall of text.

 

[Flintstone61]

Don't buy a cheap auto tracking PTZ Camera.
I know someguys who come in here with their broken dreams and a Jidetech,BioNtech, Sunba, Shitbob, yensun, whatever, Funxwe, YoLuke, PTZ's with the shitty User interface translated from Cyborg.

They dissappoint. Unless you want to use it as a fixed Camera LOL.
They have good optical hardware and cheesy firmware.
Yes you can see an Ant taking a piss from 100 feet, but it will fail you in some other way.
We have plenty of these guys here. I'm one of them
I'm going to take mine to Niagra falls and throw over the side.

 

[Flintstone61]

I should be the Poster Child for " Do NOt Buy Cheap PTZ's"

 

[sebastiantombs]

My recommendation is to do whatever it takes to get some CAT cable in to every place you want a camera. WiFi and surveillance cameras are mutually exclusive terms as far too many have found out after spending money on "wonderful" WiFi cameras. For that matter, a WiFI camera needs power so you need wire for that as well. May as well just run a CAT cable and get a decent camera. More than two or three WiFi cameras will overload the WiFI and cause all kinds of problems for the cameras as well as anything else on WiFi.

 

[Squigz]

My recommendation is to do whatever it takes to get some CAT cable in to every place you want a camera. WiFi and surveillance cameras are mutually exclusive terms as far too many have found out after spending money on "wonderful" WiFi cameras. For that matter, a WiFI camera needs power so you need wire for that as well. May as well just run a CAT cable and get a decent camera. More than two or three WiFi cameras will overload the WiFI and cause all kinds of problems for the cameras as well as anything else on WiFi.

Ahh. It will be very difficult without $1000s of renovations and repainting (would need to knock down exterior and interior walls).

I was 100% going to get solar or battery wifi cameras for the others.
Honestly, we are surrounded by other houses, they would need to be already in someone else's property ro jump the fence into ours for all but the front, so the side and back are 'nice to have's'. I don't want to be able to ID, I want people to see a camera and keep running if they're already jumping fences.
I was going to just get fake cameras and motion lights for a few tens of dollars and be done with it, but if I can find half decent wifi cameras without costing much, even better.

Wifi wise, I already have a separate wifi for smart devices in the home, and will be getting a separate router specifically for the security network, on it's own subnet. I have routers I can change the broadcast band on to minimise interference. Number of wifi devices and "clogging up the network" won't be an issue.

I'm curious as to why wifi and security cameras are seen as mutually exclusive by many? Wifi has had some serious improvements since it came out - I would have thought it would be like wireless gaming mice - they used to be trash, and people buy cheap ones and think they're still trash, but good ones are just fine.

 

[Squigz]

My recommendation is to do whatever it takes to get some CAT cable in to every place you want a camera. WiFi and surveillance cameras are mutually exclusive terms as far too many have found out after spending money on "wonderful" WiFi cameras. For that matter, a WiFI camera needs power so you need wire for that as well. May as well just run a CAT cable and get a decent camera. More than two or three WiFi cameras will overload the WiFI and cause all kinds of problems for the cameras as well as anything else on WiFi.

Also thank you for the welcome
I don't mean to be rude either, I am happy to learn and hear the experience of others.
If I had my mind made up, I wouldn't be here

 

[Squigz]

Don't buy a cheap auto tracking PTZ Camera.
I know someguys who come in here with their broken dreams and a Jidetech,BioNtech, Sunba, Shitbob, yensun, whatever, Funxwe, YoLuke, PTZ's with the shitty User interface translated from Cyborg.

They dissappoint. Unless you want to use it as a fixed Camera LOL.
They have good optical hardware and cheesy firmware.
Yes you can see an Ant taking a piss from 100 feet, but it will fail you in some other way.
We have plenty of these guys here. I'm one of them
I'm going to take mine to Niagra falls and throw over the side.

What kind of issues did you have?
I would assume that cheap ones don't know the difference between a moth and a person, and cannot be relied on to actually capture anything / not capture junk.
That goes for non PTZ though.
Specifically for PTZ, as long as it moves when told to, even if it takes a while, none of the cheap ones say they have presets or patrol etc anyway so, it is only able to be moved live.


That aside, yeah, I have already learned that cheap ones are not great and, security of your home is worth doing well.

So for the front, definitely will be getting a decent IP cam. Just gotta decide which one.

Anyone know if Andy ships to Aus, or who the best retailer would be? What about the firmware issues I read about before?

 

[Flintstone61]

Its the translated user interface that is lacking in features for tunability and is muddy, lacks clarity. Not to say you cant buy one. Just know that it will work, just don’t have high expectations.
Having a seperate wifi network from your phones and laptops, computers…will help. Hope you can find a solution.
Be interesting to see how it works out.
My Nephew has a business with 8 cams all on a wifi NVR. The system was left in place when he took over the business.
So the Cams are talking to the NVR not the router.

 

[Flintstone61]

He thought it worked well enough to put a different wifi NVR in his house. But I can tell you, my phone lags on his wifi now. So if I need to get to a Web page I turn off Wifi and use cellular. Not sure how that system is implemented.

 

[Squigz]

He thought it worked well enough to put a different wifi NVR in his house. But I can tell you, my phone lags on his wifi now. So if I need to get to a Web page I turn off Wifi and use cellular. Not sure how that system is implemented.

I'll be sure to keep you updated, and will keep an eye on the network.
Worst case, I separate the networks and have a DMZ between them so only specific devices can access the cameras.
The streams may be set up to broadcast, rather than stream on request. This can use a lot of network bandwidth.
Same with unicast vs multicast.

I don't intend to have them always available to the rest of the network, only when requested. It's OK if there's a delay in retrieving the stream.
So, should be good

Again, will keep everyone updated on my journey though ')

 

[garycrist]

A simple cell phone jammer will render any WIFI useless regardless of cost or sophistication!
If I can build radio systems that are hidden from HOA Nazis and run RG8 or 9913, then I bet
you will not need to "knock down walls".

As a giggle, we up here in the states have invented and made in China, a device called a drill and bits
to put our cats through the wall, Unless you live in Coober Pedy, then I would understand.....HA HA HA

 

[Squigz]

A simple cell phone jammer will render any WIFI useless regardless of cost or sophistication!
If I can build radio systems that are hidden from HOA Nazis and run RG8 or 9913, then I bet
you will not need to "knock down walls".

As a giggle, we up here in the states have invented and made in China, a device called a drill and bits
to put our cats through the wall, Unless you live in Coober Pedy, then I would understand.....HA HA HA

Ohh see, I have a 2nd storey, and a steel framed home that would require me to take the ceiling and walls apart to run cable through it (unless you have a tool that can navigate insulation batts and find and go through pre-made holes in steel frames and studs).

Also, if I do electrical work or drill more holes in the steel, my insurance will be void (they'll do whatever they can to void insurance) when it comes to fire or collapse respectively. So I am hesitant to do something that will involve drilling through the steel.

Open to suggestions though!

As for jamming the network - indeed, it is that simple. So is cutting the power - And the people in question have already targeted some homes by cutting the power and waiting for 2 hours then coming back, when they know people are not home for a while. They haven't jammed any wifi yet though, they just use crude tools so far hahaha.
I don't intend to fork out for a UPS that can power the system for hours.
If my home is targeted by an organised attack, that's what insurance is for. The good thing about insurance companies here is, if they feel the attack could be repeated, they'll pay themselves to upgrade the system to protect their money

 

[wittaj]

Ahh. It will be very difficult without $1000s of renovations and repainting (would need to knock down exterior and interior walls).

I was 100% going to get solar or battery wifi cameras for the others.
Honestly, we are surrounded by other houses, they would need to be already in someone else's property ro jump the fence into ours for all but the front, so the side and back are 'nice to have's'. I don't want to be able to ID, I want people to see a camera and keep running if they're already jumping fences.
I was going to just get fake cameras and motion lights for a few tens of dollars and be done with it, but if I can find half decent wifi cameras without costing much, even better.

Wifi wise, I already have a separate wifi for smart devices in the home, and will be getting a separate router specifically for the security network, on it's own subnet. I have routers I can change the broadcast band on to minimise interference. Number of wifi devices and "clogging up the network" won't be an issue.

I'm curious as to why wifi and security cameras are seen as mutually exclusive by many? Wifi has had some serious improvements since it came out - I would have thought it would be like wireless gaming mice - they used to be trash, and people buy cheap ones and think they're still trash, but good ones are just fine.

Wifi cameras connected to Wifi routers are problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your system. And then any distance will slow the speed even more.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a wifi camera and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.

 

[sebastiantombs]

The only saving grace you have is if you use motion activated cameras for the battery/WiFi locations. That will reduce the traffic versus a camera that transmits and records 24/7 but the down side is that you will miss lots of motion detection that way. The problem there is that the camera has to boot, or wake up, once it is triggered by a PIR, or other traditional, motion sensor. That takes time, anything from a second or two to as high as 30 seconds to a minute. Even a second or two of delay can be a critical difference when a critical event happens.

When you say WiFi has come a long way, it still can't avoid the physics of a radio channel. Those are inherent to any form of RF communication especially when multiple transmitters are on the same channel. Think of it like you standing at one end of a room filled with people all trying to talk to you simultaneously. Yes, you'll hear some words, all jumbled together, from those closest to you but as the people get further away from you you'll hear less and less. Shouting works for a few seconds until everyone is shouting, then the same thing happens. WiFi has that same type of problem with real surveillance cameras versus the consumer end cameras that only activate if they detect motion.

In terms of fishing wire through walls filled with insulation, I've installed alarms, video systems and electrical systems for years and have always managed to get wiring to every device without tearing out a single wall at any time. Sometimes it becomes a real challenge, especially with insulation in the wall, but with careful planning and some patience it can be done with very little impact on walls, and no impact on framing. It is not an impossible task at all. I have only made one mistake when drilling holes in probably 40 years of doing this kind of stuff. Planning is the key.

Andy, EmpireTech, does ship to AU with no problems. In fact you'll probably get faster shipping times than we do here in the States since you're so much closer to Hong Kong.

 

[Flintstone61]

One time a drilled a hole in Cement, and the Chicago Fire Department showed up. At a Hospital. They nearly threw me off the job. But the next day a suspect in custody being treated for GSW grabbed an officers gun and got loose in the Hospital. So they kinda forgot about my Screw up pretty quickly ( Cement dust triggers smoke Alarms)

 

[Squigz]

In terms of fishing wire through walls filled with insulation, I've installed alarms, video systems and electrical systems for years and have always managed to get wiring to every device without tearing out a single wall at any time. Sometimes it becomes a real challenge, especially with insulation in the wall, but with careful planning and some patience it can be done with very little impact on walls, and no impact on framing. It is not an impossible task at all. I have only made one mistake when drilling holes in probably 40 years of doing this kind of stuff. Planning is the key.

Are you able to talk me through this process at all?
I can't imagine how I could go about drilling a hole outside, and feeding a line and somehow navigating the 4 separate walls it would need to to make it to the destination (several bends), or up, bend to go along the roof, down, to the destination - while having steel frames every 1.5m or less in the walls, and every 1m or less in the roof, unable to "go into the roof" as there is a 2nd storey so there is no roof cavity above the places in question.

I'd be quite happy to lay ethernet cable if it were simple enough.

Also, punching straight through the walls and having cables run through the inside of the house, even in conduit that sits on the walls, will not pass the WAF - before it gets mentioned.

 

[Squigz]

Wifi cameras connected to Wifi routers are problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your system. And then any distance will slow the speed even more.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a wifi camera and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.

Absolutely! Most consumer grade switching equipment (routers, etc) will have the same pitfalls on ethernet as they will on WiFi (everything can hear everything else, there's interference). That's why I intend on putting them on their own router on a separate band, and only have 2 of them. If they still do not behave adequately, I have no problem having them record and "save to SD" a few seconds before and after the motion event, and not actually broadcast. As long as I can request the video feed if I wish to view live, through a web-page, etc. That would only happen to one at a time, and I wouldn't expect there to be any issues.
That's the route I was going to go down anyway, I'm not sure if I want the side and back ones constantly recording. They're really only for if someone goes around the back after having already been picked up by the front camera (which will be IP). I don't expect them to do anything except be able to follow them to see what they do. I'm not attempting to get an ID from them. More "at 6:45, they broke the side window and entered the house". If it's jittery, or only 2 FPS, that's fine.
I don't get people's apparent need to read sign language or make publishable movies out of the footage they record. I'm not doing LPR in my back yard so I don't care if I get tearing or lost frames. If there was a car in my back yard I'd have MUCH bigger issues.