New to PoE cams. This site seems to be a great source of information.

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Hello all,

This site is a gold mine of information. Thanks for having me here.

I'm a first time home owner. I'm coming from SimpliSafe outdoor wireless cameras that were absolute garbage. What I want to achieve is:
  • 5 camera PoE system with a budget of roughly $300/camera.
  • Ability to view cameras and receive alerts via phone.
  • Great low-light capability.
  • Great human detection/vehicle detection with a low amount of false alarms. The ability to set up trip wires is also important to me. Crisp/clear video is important. Just not as important as low light and AI features. I want to make sure nobody is on my property at night.
  • "Plug and play" PoE NVR. I'm not interested in building/configuring my own Blue Iris system just yet. Budget of $500.
I've done a fairly large amount of research at this point. This is some of what I've learned:
  • Blue Iris is incredible. I'm just not ready to dive that deep yet.
  • All roads seem to lead to Dahua and Hikvision.
  • Most of the internet is saying to buy from EmpireTech.
  • Sensor size is often overlooked by newbies and can be much more important than Megapixels.
  • If my goal is great night vision I should probably be going with the EmpireTech IPC-Color4K-T 8MP 1/1.2" cameras. I can probably use the T180 1/1.8" models for areas that need more coverage.
Here's what I'm still not totally clear on:
  • Does EmpireTech's cameras and NVRs have all of the same SMD technology and AI detection functions as other sellers of Dahua tech? I ask because I might be willing to spend more if I'm missing out on big features.
  • It looks like you can buy cameras directly from Dahua dealers. Is there any reason why I would want to do that instead of buying from EmpireTech?
  • I see on Dahua's website that they have an application called DSS Pro. Will that work with EmpireTech cameras? is there any reason why I would even want/need that?
  • This is a big one for me. I think I'm fundamentally misunderstanding SMD technology and what hardware supports it or is required for it to work properly. The cameras I mentioned above boast SMD 3.0 and 4.0, yet all of EmpireTech's NVRs only mention SMD+. However, I notice the same thing on other websites selling Dahua equipment. Even some companies selling 5-series and 6-series NVRs have nothing about SMD 3.0/4.0 in their NVR specs, it only says SMD+. Does an NVR have to mention SMD 3.0/4.0 or does that technology live on the camera's hardware?
  • What is the difference between lite/pro/wiz NVRs from EmpireTech?
If anything I mentioned "learning" above is wrong, please correct me, as I want to make the best informed decision I can. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!

edit: added some items to list of things I'm not clear on and things I want to achieve.
 
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camdensnyder

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I would definitely go with this system. They’re all varifocal so you don’t have to worry about finding the right 2.8, 3.6, 6mm camera for your situation. I have this system and it’s amazing. The cameras in it are the most recommended on the site and the NVR is the newest one also!
 

wittaj

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Welcome!

To answer your questions.

Andy's (@EMPIRETECANDY) cameras are Dahua equipment sold under the names Loryta and Empiretech. He also supplies them to the ipcamtalk store.

Some of my cameras I have bought from Andy from his Amazon store come as Dahua cams in Dahua boxes with Dahua logos, and some are not logo'd - I think it depends on how many cameras Andy buys if he gets them with the Dahua Logo or not. But regardless, they are Dahua units. If you get a unit that has Dahua on it, then the camera GUI will say Dahua; otherwise it will simply say IP Camera but looks identical except without the logo. Some of his cameras may come with EmpireTech stamped on them as well.

As long you you buy from the vendor EmpireTech or Loryta on Amazon or his website or via DM, they are Andy cams and Dahua OEM.

His cameras and NVRs are international models and many of them are not available through Dahua USA authorized dealers, but his cameras and NVRs are usually better than what you can find from a USA authorized dealer.

You can update the firmware on Andy's cameras and NVRs from the Dahua website, thus proving they are real Dahua. But you will find that the firmware we get from him is actually better and more recent than what is on the Dahua website because many members here provide feedback to Andy and then Dahua makes modifications to the firmware and sends back to him and then he sends out to his customers. These have been great improvements that Dahua doesn't even update their firmware and add to their website. So many of us are running a newer firmware than those that purchase Dahua cameras through professional installers. Smart IR on the 5442 series is one such improvement. Autotracking on the 49225 and 49425 PTZ is another. We got the next version of AI SMD 3.0 prior to anyone else as well.

Look at the threads here where members are actually testing firmware and improving it for Dahua - find a Dahua dealer with that type of relationship that Andy has with Dahua - I don't think you will find it. Look at the Dahua 4k camera on the 1/1.2" sensor as an example - Dahua provides cameras to Andy to sell before Dahua even made it available and look at all the improvements being made to the firmware from input from customers right here on this site. And the kicker is, we are not Dahua's target market - it is the professional installers...

You do have to be careful with some rebranded cameras purchased from other vendors as they are either fake Dahua cameras or are cameras that are for the Chinese region but have been hacked into English but then are not able to be updated or they will brick. Buying from a reputable source is key to make sure that doesn't happen.


It says you are in the USA, so if you go to an authorized USA Dealer, you will find that you will be spending anywhere from double to five times the amount for a Dahua camera than you can buy from Andy. And as I mentioned, most of the options are not as good as the international selections.


Many USA dealers try to push 5MP cameras and there is no 5MP camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio. You want a camera in the green:

1706975554302.png

Many members here have found this site after being burned by purchasing authorized Dahua USA cameras and replaced many, and sometimes all, of their cameras with cameras from Andy.


DSSPro will work, but it will be a waste of your time and effort. Use the DMSS app for your mobile devices and SmartPSS for your computer.


Don't get caught up in the marketing jargon of SMD, SMD+, Wizmind, etc.

Basically WizMind and WizSense are simply marketing terms for the capabilities covered under each.

WizSense is geared towards the smaller installations (and usually cheaper cameras) and WizMind is geared towards businesses (usually more expensive cameras) - so things like people counting, loitering, etc. are important to them (although some of the 5442 series has those as well).

So you just look for the features you want and purchase the correct camera for what you are trying to accomplish.

Regarding SMD, you will find that most here do not even use SMD. The IVS rules are much more accurate. Getting a camera that has AI is much more important.


You would only want to buy the lite version cameras if you do not need AI capabilities. For most of us, spending a few more dollars and getting the ability to trigger on human or vehicles instead of shadows is enough reason to buy a camera with AI.


These types of systems, even the NVR, are not plug-n-play.

It is the consumer grade Ring and Arlos and Reolink and Blink and SimpliSafe and whatever you can buy at a big box store (or the peddlers going door-to-door) that sells just that - simplicity plug-n-play devices with very little ability to tweak settings. But that simplicity comes at the expense of usable video with motion, especially at night, as well as losing the ability to dial in trigger configurations. My neighbor got a Ring system and had me help them get it going. Like literally scan the code and draw an area and it was done. But they get false triggers all the time (and worse missing triggers) and there is no customization available to tweak it.


Even a great system like Dahua, if you use it on the default/auto settings will result in poor performance. You will have to log into each camera and tweak the settings (shutter speed, brightness, contrast, gamma, etc.) to your field of view in order to get optimal performance.

Do not be amazed and accept the great static image the camera will provide on auto/default settings. At night, it will result in motion blur.

Same with the NVR, you will have to get in and make adjustments to get the system to perform like you want.

I totally get your hesitancy about wanting to jump right into Blue Iris, but wanted to make you aware that the NVR is not plug-n-play either. Having come from the NVRs to BI, I feel like BI is easier to setup and has way more options and flexibility. The only advantage towards "plug-n-play" that an NVR has over BI is that you simply plug the camera into the POE port on the back of the NVR and the NVR finds the camera and the video starts playing (plug-n-play LOL). In BI you have to manually enter the IP address and username and password of the camera in order for BI to see it. Some have had success with simply hitting the find/inspect button on BI, but the best practice is to manually input it. But typing in those 3 things are not deal killers.


Keep in mind the two cameras you have "selected" cannot see infrared, so if you do not have enough light or are not willing to use the built-in white light of the camera, then the camera is useless at night. The cameras you selected are great overview cameras and identify at 15 feet out if the cameras are installed no higher than 8 feet.

You will be shocked how much light is needed on these little sensors. And then it gets back to what I said about not running the cameras on default/auto settings. In order to get freeze frame capabilities, you need a shutter of at least 1/60s or faster. The faster the shutter the more light that is needed.

Most here recommend buying cameras with infrared capabilities in the event you don't have enough visible light.


Along with not chasing MP that you have identified in your research, you have to select the right camera for the distance you want to IDENTIFY. A great wide angle 2.8mm lens camera like the 4K/T or the 180 you "selected" is the wrong camera to IDENTIFY a perp at 40 feet away.


See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection
 
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I would definitely go with this system. They’re all varifocal so you don’t have to worry about finding the right 2.8, 3.6, 6mm camera for your situation. I have this system and it’s amazing. The cameras in it are the most recommended on the site and the NVR is the newest one also!
Thank you! I'll look into it.
 
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Welcome!

To answer your questions.

Andy's (@EMPIRETECANDY) cameras are Dahua equipment sold under the names Loryta and Empiretech. He also supplies them to the ipcamtalk store.

Some of my cameras I have bought from Andy from his Amazon store come as Dahua cams in Dahua boxes with Dahua logos, and some are not logo'd - I think it depends on how many cameras Andy buys if he gets them with the Dahua Logo or not. But regardless, they are Dahua units. If you get a unit that has Dahua on it, then the camera GUI will say Dahua; otherwise it will simply say IP Camera but looks identical except without the logo. Some of his cameras may come with EmpireTech stamped on them as well.

As long you you buy from the vendor EmpireTech or Loryta on Amazon or his website or via DM, they are Andy cams and Dahua OEM.

His cameras and NVRs are international models and many of them are not available through Dahua USA authorized dealers, but his cameras and NVRs are usually better than what you can find from a USA authorized dealer.

You can update the firmware on Andy's cameras and NVRs from the Dahua website, thus proving they are real Dahua. But you will find that the firmware we get from him is actually better and more recent than what is on the Dahua website because many members here provide feedback to Andy and then Dahua makes modifications to the firmware and sends back to him and then he sends out to his customers. These have been great improvements that Dahua doesn't even update their firmware and add to their website. So many of us are running a newer firmware than those that purchase Dahua cameras through professional installers. Smart IR on the 5442 series is one such improvement. Autotracking on the 49225 and 49425 PTZ is another. We got the next version of AI SMD 3.0 prior to anyone else as well.

Look at the threads here where members are actually testing firmware and improving it for Dahua - find a Dahua dealer with that type of relationship that Andy has with Dahua - I don't think you will find it. Look at the Dahua 4k camera on the 1/1.2" sensor as an example - Dahua provides cameras to Andy to sell before Dahua even made it available and look at all the improvements being made to the firmware from input from customers right here on this site. And the kicker is, we are not Dahua's target market - it is the professional installers...

You do have to be careful with some rebranded cameras purchased from other vendors as they are either fake Dahua cameras or are cameras that are for the Chinese region but have been hacked into English but then are not able to be updated or they will brick. Buying from a reputable source is key to make sure that doesn't happen.


It says you are in the USA, so if you go to an authorized USA Dealer, you will find that you will be spending anywhere from double to five times the amount for a Dahua camera than you can buy from Andy. And as I mentioned, most of the options are not as good as the international selections.


Many USA dealers try to push 5MP cameras and there is no 5MP camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio. You want a camera in the green:

View attachment 185075

Many members here have found this site after being burned by purchasing authorized Dahua USA cameras and replaced many, and sometimes all, of their cameras with cameras from Andy.


DSSPro will work, but it will be a waste of your time and effort. Use the DMSS app for your mobile devices and SmartPSS for your computer.


Don't get caught up in the marketing jargon of SMD, SMD+, Wizmind, etc.

Basically WizMind and WizSense are simply marketing terms for the capabilities covered under each.

WizSense is geared towards the smaller installations (and usually cheaper cameras) and WizMind is geared towards businesses (usually more expensive cameras) - so things like people counting, loitering, etc. are important to them (although some of the 5442 series has those as well).

So you just look for the features you want and purchase the correct camera for what you are trying to accomplish.

Regarding SMD, you will find that most here do not even use SMD. The IVS rules are much more accurate. Getting a camera that has AI is much more important.


You would only want to buy the lite version cameras if you do not need AI capabilities. For most of us, spending a few more dollars and getting the ability to trigger on human or vehicles instead of shadows is enough reason to buy a camera with AI.


These types of systems, even the NVR, are not plug-n-play.

It is the consumer grade Ring and Arlos and Reolink and Blink and SimpliSafe and whatever you can buy at a big box store (or the peddlers going door-to-door) that sells just that - simplicity plug-n-play devices with very little ability to tweak settings. But that simplicity comes at the expense of usable video with motion, especially at night, as well as losing the ability to dial in trigger configurations. My neighbor got a Ring system and had me help them get it going. Like literally scan the code and draw an area and it was done. But they get false triggers all the time (and worse missing triggers) and there is no customization available to tweak it.


Even a great system like Dahua, if you use it on the default/auto settings will result in poor performance. You will have to log into each camera and tweak the settings (shutter speed, brightness, contrast, gamma, etc.) to your field of view in order to get optimal performance.

Do not be amazed and accept the great static image the camera will provide on auto/default settings. At night, it will result in motion blur.

Same with the NVR, you will have to get in and make adjustments to get the system to perform like you want.

I totally get your hesitancy about wanting to jump right into Blue Iris, but wanted to make you aware that the NVR is not plug-n-play either. Having come from the NVRs to BI, I feel like BI is easier to setup and has way more options and flexibility. The only advantage towards "plug-n-play" that an NVR has over BI is that you simply plug the camera into the POE port on the back of the NVR and the NVR finds the camera and the video starts playing (plug-n-play LOL). In BI you have to manually enter the IP address and username and password of the camera in order for BI to see it. Some have had success with simply hitting the find/inspect button on BI, but the best practice is to manually input it. But typing in those 3 things are not deal killers.


Keep in mind the two cameras you have "selected" cannot see infrared, so if you do not have enough light or are not willing to use the built-in white light of the camera, then the camera is useless at night. The cameras you selected are great overview cameras and identify at 15 feet out if the cameras are installed no higher than 8 feet.

You will be shocked how much light is needed on these little sensors. And then it gets back to what I said about not running the cameras on default/auto settings. In order to get freeze frame capabilities, you need a shutter of at least 1/60s or faster. The faster the shutter the more light that is needed.

Most here recommend buying cameras with infrared capabilities in the event you don't have enough visible light.


Along with not chasing MP that you have identified in your research, you have to select the right camera for the distance you want to IDENTIFY. A great wide angle 2.8mm lens camera like the 4K/T or the 180 you "selected" is the wrong camera to IDENTIFY a perp at 40 feet away.


See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection
Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed, comprehensive response. I read through everything you shared. I also dug into all of the links you supplied and dug further into other threads provided inside of those. I learned a lot. I really was blind to the importance of focal length before going through your post. It sounds like a lot of people go through the experience of buying a new system only to realize after the fact it's not really the system they need. I'm going to go back to the drawing board and plan my layout based on my plot plan and some of the DORI specs I want to meet. You'll probably see another post from me in the coming weeks with my property layout and my desired functions of cameras at different spots. Also, I heard everything you said about the DVR and cameras not being plug-n-play. I'm ready to do all of that configuration.

I still can't for the life of me tell the difference between the NVRs on EmpireTech's site except for the obvious things like # of ports and HDDs supported. I'll continue to research that, though.
 

wittaj

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I am glad you found it informative and hopefully you can start off not making the same mistakes many of us did!

Chasing MP and not understanding the importance of focal lengths are the two biggest mistakes people make. We see them zoom in on TV and the movies and read plates and people expect that is what you can really do.
 

Ri22o

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Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed, comprehensive response. I read through everything you shared. I also dug into all of the links you supplied and dug further into other threads provided inside of those. I learned a lot. I really was blind to the importance of focal length before going through your post. It sounds like a lot of people go through the experience of buying a new system only to realize after the fact it's not really the system they need. I'm going to go back to the drawing board and plan my layout based on my plot plan and some of the DORI specs I want to meet. You'll probably see another post from me in the coming weeks with my property layout and my desired functions of cameras at different spots. Also, I heard everything you said about the DVR and cameras not being plug-n-play. I'm ready to do all of that configuration.

I still can't for the life of me tell the difference between the NVRs on EmpireTech's site except for the obvious things like # of ports and HDDs supported. I'll continue to research that, though.
Seeing everything is great until something happens and you realize you want (or need) a lot more detail. I'm not sure if you perused my thread, but I learned a lot with everything in the front of my house that allowed me to better plan when it came time to deploy everything in the backyard.

I believe @bigredfish is the resident NVR brain. He might be able to help you narrow down the differences between the different units.
 

steve1225

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I'm a first time home owner. I'm coming from SimpliSafe outdoor wireless cameras that were absolute garbage. What I want to achieve is:
  • 5 camera PoE system with a budget of roughly $300/camera.
  • Ability to view cameras and receive alerts via phone.
  • Great low-light capability.
  • Great human detection/vehicle detection with a low amount of false alarms. The ability to set up trip wires is also important to me. Crisp/clear video is important. Just not as important as low light and AI features. I want to make sure nobody is on my property at night.
  • "Plug and play" PoE NVR. I'm not interested in building/configuring my own Blue Iris system just yet. Budget of $500.
Cam with best day/night/AI performance per price & most universal to different scenarios is varifocal 5442-S3.. 4 mpx, big very good image sensor & image procesor, optical zoom with range 1-3x (wide/normal/zoomed), lots of AI modes, available in turret, bullet & dome chassis, white & black color, stable firmware with many working features.. It works best with actual 5xxx-EI NVR models from Dahua.

Andy is selling this as kits:


If You want some bullets, you must add them manually to the basket.

  • If my goal is great night vision I should probably be going with the EmpireTech IPC-Color4K-T 8MP 1/1.2" cameras. I can probably use the T180 1/1.8" models for areas that need more coverage.
You don't want to build system based on all Color4K cams.. they have very good night performance, but there are many problems with them. 3 most important:
  • they have shallow depth of field.. Very big sensor (1/1.2") & very open aperture (F1.0) create Bokeh effect (Bokeh - Wikipedia). Only objects at a certain distance are optically sharp, everything close or very far from the camera is more or less blurry. Dahua try to hide that using digital sharpening, but this is a problem.
  • no varifocal (zoom) options, only fixed lens 2.8 & 3.6mm.. You will get very good overview wide image, but no details for objects at distance.. for that You need optical zoom..
  • many problems with firmware, which is not stable...

You can order 1 or 2 Color4K cams for locations where You want 4K overview image and where You have second zoomed camera to take street/paths/gates etc.. But most of the system should be based on varifocals (cams with optical zoom) with good night performance.

  • Does EmpireTech's cameras and NVRs have all of the same SMD technology and AI detection functions as other sellers of Dahua tech? I ask because I might be willing to spend more if I'm missing out on big features.
Yes, it is the same. The same base functionality of NVR, the same AI modes & performance. There is no difference in hardware or firmware between Andy & official chanel. The only difference is missing Dahua logo - Dahua OEM partners (they are hundreds of them) must sell cams/NVR under own Brand (not Dahua).

Sometimes Andy have dedicated firmware versions done by Dahua engineers for Andy based on problems we report on forum. But You can use original firmware from Dahua site.

  • It looks like you can buy cameras directly from Dahua dealers. Is there any reason why I would want to do that instead of buying from EmpireTech?
In case of Dahua channels (dealers), You will receive support from Dahua channel (dealers). In some countries it works better, in some it is almost non existing. In case Andy, support is done by Andy & this forum. Hardware & firmware wise there are the same cams. Only difference is logo & chanel support.

  • I see on Dahua's website that they have an application called DSS Pro. Will that work with EmpireTech cameras? is there any reason why I would even want/need that?
it will work, but DSS Pro is enterprise solution. When You have many NVR with hundreds (or more) of cams in many locations and You want to integrate those in to one big central system.

  • This is a big one for me. I think I'm fundamentally misunderstanding SMD technology and what hardware supports it or is required for it to work properly. The cameras I mentioned above boast SMD 3.0 and 4.0, yet all of EmpireTech's NVRs only mention SMD+. However, I notice the same thing on other websites selling Dahua equipment. Even some companies selling 5-series and 6-series NVRs have nothing about SMD 3.0/4.0 in their NVR specs, it only says SMD+. Does an NVR have to mention SMD 3.0/4.0 or does that technology live on the camera's hardware?
Don't look at this - SMD/IVS specification for AI NVR's are for situation when You have older dumb (no AI) cams and want to add AI detections from that cams on NVR. NVR have AI processor and can do this capability for many cams at once. But yes - SMD 3.0/4.0 is supported only on newer cams, if you have dumb cam then You must use SMD+ on NVR.

You will order modern cams with local AI, so no more AI processing is required on NVR. Everything is done on cams.. NVR is only storing AI events on HDD to database & allow to search them.

  • What is the difference between lite/pro/wiz NVRs from EmpireTech?
lite/pro are old Dahua line names for non-AI equipment. You don't want this.

WizSense & WizMind are a new names for AI based equipment. WizSense is base line, with SMD and basic IVS functionality & lower performance AI processor. WizMind usually have much more AI modes & higher performance AI processor - so it can work faster & better (it works on higher resolution image).
 
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Cam with best day/night/AI performance per price & most universal to different scenarios is varifocal 5442-S3.. 4 mpx, big very good image sensor & image procesor, optical zoom with range 1-3x (wide/normal/zoomed), lots of AI modes, available in turret, bullet & dome chassis, white & black color, stable firmware with many working features.. It works best with actual 5xxx-EI NVR models from Dahua.

Andy is selling this as kits:


If You want some bullets, you must add them manually to the basket.



You don't want to build system based on all Color4K cams.. they have very good night performance, but there are many problems with them. 3 most important:
  • they have shallow depth of field.. Very big sensor (1/1.2") & very open aperture (F1.0) create Bokeh effect (Bokeh - Wikipedia). Only objects at a certain distance are optically sharp, everything close or very far from the camera is more or less blurry. Dahua try to hide that using digital sharpening, but this is a problem.
  • no varifocal (zoom) options, only fixed lens 2.8 & 3.6mm.. You will get very good overview wide image, but no details for objects at distance.. for that You need optical zoom..
  • many problems with firmware, which is not stable...

You can order 1 or 2 Color4K cams for locations where You want 4K overview image and where You have second zoomed camera to take street/paths/gates etc.. But most of the system should be based on varifocals (cams with optical zoom) with good night performance.



Yes, it is the same. The same base functionality of NVR, the same AI modes & performance. There is no difference in hardware or firmware between Andy & official chanel. The only difference is missing Dahua logo - Dahua OEM partners (they are hundreds of them) must sell cams/NVR under own Brand (not Dahua).

Sometimes Andy have dedicated firmware versions done by Dahua engineers for Andy based on problems we report on forum. But You can use original firmware from Dahua site.



In case of Dahua channels (dealers), You will receive support from Dahua channel (dealers). In some countries it works better, in some it is almost non existing. In case Andy, support is done by Andy & this forum. Hardware & firmware wise there are the same cams. Only difference is logo & chanel support.



it will work, but DSS Pro is enterprise solution. When You have many NVR with hundreds (or more) of cams in many locations and You want to integrate those in to one big central system.



Don't look at this - SMD/IVS specification for AI NVR's are for situation when You have older dumb (no AI) cams and want to add AI detections from that cams on NVR. NVR have AI processor and can do this capability for many cams at once. But yes - SMD 3.0/4.0 is supported only on newer cams, if you have dumb cam then You must use SMD+ on NVR.

You will order modern cams with local AI, so no more AI processing is required on NVR. Everything is done on cams.. NVR is only storing AI events on HDD to database & allow to search them.



lite/pro are old Dahua line names for non-AI equipment. You don't want this.

WizSense & WizMind are a new names for AI based equipment. WizSense is base line, with SMD and basic IVS functionality & lower performance AI processor. WizMind usually have much more AI modes & higher performance AI processor - so it can work faster & better (it works on higher resolution image).
Thank you for the thorough response. You answered a bunch of my questions, especially about the NVRs. Really appreciate it.
 
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