newb wants to monitor metal pole building and house

[Lootenny]

Hello all, newb to security/cams here. I've done a bit of reading and searching, and could use some advice.

My house is in a rural setting 10 minutes from "civilization", and the county sheriff can be a ways off. I just built a metal pole building as a shop for my cars that is about 170' from the house. I buried a 1" PVC conduit when the gas/water/electric was trenched out just for any possible data or entertainment connection. The wifi reception in a metal building is always bad, so I had planned on putting a wifi router inside the shop and hardwiring it to the router in the house. My reading on that subject about the dangers of running a parallel metal path such as Cat5 or 6 between buildings (different electrical ground planes and the danger of distant lightning strikes frying components) has led me to purchase pre-terminated fiber optic cable and media converters to use as my data connection.

Then I found you people! I'd like to keep an eye on the place when not home. I initially thought that a cam system with some sort of motion-sensing alert sent to me would be ideal, but I've read some opinions on here that "a cam system isn't an alarm, if you want an alarm, get an alarm." So I'm open to getting an alarm also, but as I check a lot of false alarms in my job, I don't want the cops called every time the alarm is triggered. I'd like to get an alert, then pull up the cams and have a look around.

So. As I see it, my choices are run two separate 3-4 cam systems in the two buildings, or run the 3 cams I'd like in/around the shop to a switch, from the switch to the shop router, over the fiber optic to the router/internet connection in the house, where the house cams would also be connected with a switch to the router, then the router to the NVR. Will this work?

I'm very grateful for any advice. Frankly, there is so much good info (and jargon) on here, that it's tough for a new guy to sort through all of the options.

 

[nayr]

You got a great plan, very well executed to find your self wanting IPCams and having fiber in the ground.. props.

Yeah tha'll be perfectly fine, Normal HD IP Cameras use ~10Mbit of bandwidth maxed out, 4k UHD Cams ~20Mbit.. you should have plenty of throughput on that link between buildings to not worry about it, more so if that uplinks only other use is mainly to provide wifi internet.. if at any point in the future you run into throughput issues (Gigabit Internet) you can upgrade both switches and get 10GBit between buildings, your sitting pretty right now.

 

[Kawboy12R]

So. As I see it, my choices are run two separate 3-4 cam systems in the two buildings, or run the 3 cams I'd like in/around the shop to a switch, from the switch to the shop router, over the fiber optic to the router/internet connection in the house, where the house cams would also be connected with a switch to the router, then the router to the NVR. Will this work?

Yes possibly, but you might have some issues that can be tricky to deal with when assigning static IPs and going through two routers. I'd run the cable from the house router to the pole barn into a switch out there and plug the cameras plus a Picostation (to provide the wifi) into the barn's switch. If you want to get fancy, mount a Pico outside up high to give wifi to the whole property (I suppose that depends on how big the property is) and one inside the tin barn for good reception in there as well.

Add at least some cameras with alarm IO to add some door sensors and Optex PIRs for really good intrusion alerts, but it can be tricky to build your own security system through cams and an NVR. Cams are really for evidence rather than also a good turnkey alarm system.

Here's what I mean by a Picostation- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0ED-0005-00099&cm_re=picostation-_-0ED-0005-00099-_-Product

They plug into a router or switch through their own special flavour of PoE, so if you've got standard 48v PoE switches don't confuse them with Ubiquiti's 24v PoE scheme and try to plug the Pico directly into a PoE switch without using their supplied 24v PoE injector or you'll let out the magic smoke.

 

[Lootenny]

Thank you to both of you gentlemen!

I have not purchased switches yet. I have a Netgear Nighthawk router in the house, and supplying power in the shop is not an issue. What switches would you recommend with my router in the house and the Ubiquiti picostation in the shop? Am I understanding that the picostation will act as a remote antenna for the Netgear router? The shop is one big 1700sq ft room, so one cam inside and two outside lets me see everything but the back of the building, which is visible from the house. The house may get more cams in the future, as it seems everyone gets infected with "cam fever" once they get started!

 

[Kawboy12R]

My favourite 10/100 home desktop PoE switch is probably the ZyXEL 8 port with 4 PoE ports if you don't need gigabit (a cam only switch won't unless you're, say, running computer or backup traffic through it) and 4 is what you need for PoE or don't mind adding a PoE injector or two if you need more than 4. http://www.amazon.com/ZyXEL-ES1100-8P-8-Port-Ethernet-Unmanaged/dp/B005GRETPO

Remember that you'll need at least one of the ports on an 8 port switch to connect to the router. Also, I've used other cheaper (TP-Link, TRENDnet) 8 port PoE switches with good luck. The ZyXEL just to me has the best form factor for a desktop switch, has the full 802.3af 15.4w/port power budget for all ports, and doesn't have a big fat power pack screwing up the power cord.

If you need PoE+ (the 802.3at standard for more than 15.4w for some PTZ cameras or some cams with built-in heaters) or gigabit, I'm currently running this switch on my home server/Blue Iris installation- http://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Business-Desktop-Gigabit-LGS108P/dp/B004O9M6DW/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1457831985&sr=1-1&keywords=linksys+8+port+gigabit+poe

Personally, I prefer rear ports on a desktop switch though. Front ports are for rackmounts but I got this one on a good sale to free up my ZyXEL for other uses. I also hung it on the wall with all the ports facing down which is less annoying than having 8 cables coming out the front all over my desk.

The Picostation isn't exactly an antenna for your router. Among other things it can do, it is a standalone wifi access point that you can plug into your router via Cat5E cable to give you another wifi source at the end of the wire run, often at a distance or outdoors. You could also use one on your house to tie multiple buildings together with Nanostations and share your home internet and LAN with each of them.

If you wanted to skip the fiber link to your pole building, you could use, say, a LocoM5 Nanostation mounted on the house to form a bridge (basically a dedicated wifi link indistinguishable to your router from a cable) to another LocoM5 on the building. Run the wire inside to the Ubiquiti 24v PoE injector and then to the switch and plug your cameras and a Pico in access point mode (to provide wifi for smartphones, etc) into the switch. Wired is better than wifi even though the Nanos are excellent products so it'd be a step down from your fiber link. I'm not trying to convince you to switch, just providing an example. Nanos are more often used for point to point bridges than Picos because Nanos have directional antennas in them. Picos have omnis although they're replaceable with an external directional antenna if you need it. Picos make good central receiving points for a number of directional Nanos pointed at them or for broadcasting as a wifi access point. Your fiber link will also have better bandwidth than a Nano link.

 

[bp2008]

Kawboy's advice is solid. You don't want a second router for your other building. You want an access point. I would suggest instead of a PicoStation, use a Unifi AC access point: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B015PR20GY or http://www.amazon.com/dp/B015PRCBBI -- you can get one for the metal building and another one or two for the house if your coverage at home is spotty, and they work together seamlessly.


As for a PoE switch, a more cost-effective option is this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003CFATT2 This one is smaller and cheaper than the ZyXEL switch, but it has an external power brick which I know some people don't like.

 

[nayr]

Pico's are nice but I wouldn't bother with them anymore, not with the UniFi AC ones that are pretty damn decent cost... I am getting tremendous performance out of a few well placed UniFi AC access points.

If your building a new wifi network i would suggest those, put a few inside your house, one in your shed and then maby one outside somewhere and you'll have like wire speed wireless nearly everywhere.. the Pico's are nice but suffer from a few issues: one they are way to powerfull, the weakest link is your phone/tablet/laptop and having an access point sending a signal 4x stronger than the client wont help range, just makes roaming harder as it thinks it has a good connection when it wont.. when you run multiple access points the client uses signal strength to judge distance, with a Picostation on the WiFi it'll always look like its the closest even when your ontop of a faster one. Lastly they are not MIMO, so speed and noise handling will never be great..

I have a few retired Picostations I cant find much use for anymore, your end with up such a better network when you increase access point density and decrease power.. as opposed to trying to run a few big power access points.. this allows your battery powered mobile devices to maintain a fast connection at minimal radio power, you can double your devices battery life at home if you give it a great network that it dont have to fight for access.

With smartphones I can pull >100Mbit over 2.4G WiFi nearly anywhere on my property now, and 300-400Mbps on 5G when I am near enough to an AP, which is hard to get away from em when I have 3 in 1200sqft.

 

[Lootenny]

Okay, I ordered switches. Seems odd that the UniFi AC is $20-$40 more than the picostation. I understand the logic behind not wanting a super-powerful AP (hey! I'm learning some acronyms!) overriding better connections. I wonder if it matters inside an all-metal building acting as a Faraday cage? More curiosity, $20 isn't a big deal at this point, my motto is "once and done." It's why I spent the extra money for gigabit switches.


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[nayr]

if you want wifi outside your metal building and inside your metal building you'll need an Access Point on both sides.. that UniFi access points have GigE ports on them and can use them!

put them in the most central locations you can where your going to spend most time.. mine are: 1 - Office Wall / 2 - Living Room Celing / 3 - Wall right outside all 3 bedroom doors.

I have an Outdoor+ on a pole outside, its not hooked up.. the 3 inside ones been doing better and I just havent taken it down yet.. outside I'd suggest you just get the longrange AC and put it in a plastic sprinkler enclosure on the side facing your house, it'll give you good wifi in the yard in-between.. if you have other rec areas like lake/pool/grille you want great wifi we can work on that later.

 

[Kawboy12R]

I certainly won't argue against the Unifi units but the power can be turned down on Picos for short range use.

 

[Lootenny]

When I replaced my old router with the Nighthawk, I was stunned at how much better the range was, it covers my 2000 sq ft ranch no problem, and much of the yard. If I stand at a window in the shop I can get a bar or two of wifi, but step away and it's The Cone of Silence. Whether I use the pico station or the UniFi, it will be to provide wifi inside the shop only.


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[bp2008]

I still recommend UniFi AC even if you only need one. They support 802.11ac wifi, whereas no current picostation does.

 

[Lootenny]

UniFi AC ordered! Now to figure out which NVR and cameras I need!


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[ncwbob]

If you are often gone for 24-48 hours at a time and you are going to have valuable automotive hardware, tools and cars in that shop then I would follow the good advice already said here concerning cams but I would also hard wire that shop and maybe also the house with switches on every entry point that trip when the door is opened or window is broken. This type of system should be pretty reliable and give few false alarms.

I would hook that up to a cellular based system to dial out to your cell phone and trigger outside alarms that are loud. This together with cam based alarms that email or text you should be good. Be sure to purchase UPS - un-interuptable power supplies and run your cams and alarms on those in case of power outage or buglers turning off your power, it would be the very first thing I would do if I were them and I broke in.

Concerning security I always look at it this way, if I wanted to rob myself how would I do it? I always assume the thieves are as smart or smarter then me.

Most thieves are stupid drugged out idiots but some are smart so....

Many burglaries are perpetrated by people you know or even neighbors and these people can easily learn when to hit you and even how from being at your house so keep this in mind and keep your mouth shut when talking to any one about your security system and cams. I have been robbed by friends/acquaintances before!

I would put a large PTZ auto tracking style camera right out front mounted on the side of the house or on a pole beside the driveway and make sure it is on a 360 degree patrol pattern with auto tracking enabled. People walking by or even cars driving by are freaked out when a large camera is seen to be tracking them, they have no idea it is an automatic feature and assume a person is controlling it, from ether in the house or near by, but if you blab to your neighbors about how it works automatically, you just possibly gave up a really great way to freak out potential thieves.

I would put up yard lights that come on automatically and a street light style light that comes on every evening and stays on all night in front of your shop.

I would go so far as to inquire with a local security company about monitoring your system for you 24/7. One company local in my area has monitoring for about 30.00 per month. Presuming you can afford it and you got a lot of nice stuff and... as you said, you are often gone for 24-48 hours at a time, this might turn out to be a good option both in actual protection and piece of mind during those periods you are gone for 2 days at a time. I guarantee you get hit hard one time and you will wish you had stepped up and had a better system or had the security company monitoring.

I love techy stuff, so I tend to go over board with this stuff so hopefully this is useful info for you.

Bob