No clue about security camera's and what have you

[pjdevries]

Hi,

New here and no clue about security camera's and what have you. So please be gentle.

Like so many on this forum, I could use some objective advice and help with selection of a set of cameras and accompanying software. At first glance this forum seems to have a lot of information available. On the other hand it seems to be rather biased towards Dahua hardware and Blue Iris software. Nevertheless I would appreciate some general hints. I am working through the Cliff Notes, but it's quite a lot of information. For a noob, it's not easy to wrap my head around all of that.

What I am looking for, is a manageable system of a few outdoor camera's. It's a combined project of me and my neighbour. Nothing huge. Just two not very big, neighbouring houses on a dyke. We want to keep an eye on, front sides and back. The wish list I can think of, more or less looks like this:

• Stating the obvious, but good quality images, both during the day and at night. Scoundrels should be clearly recognisable.
• Remotely accessible but secure.
• Good quality, user friendly software. Preferably not on a dedicated PC.

A bit paranoid, especially after reading various articles about insecure, easily hackable camera's, I'm very hesitant to make a choice. I looked for well known, European and other non Chinese brands, but quickly had to decide it's financially out of my range. I read and think I understand the pro's (good with well lighted conditions) and con's (not so good with low light conditions) of 4MP/8K camera's, but I'm having a hard time what to look for to come as close as possible to the wish list. Although quite expensive compared to the competition, I had a good feeling about the UniFi Protect G4-PRO Camera in combination with the UniFi Cloud Key Plus for some time. Both in terms of quality and easy of operation. But then I read I read some disappointing reviews. So I really have no idea what to do and Black Friday and Cyber Monday are around the corner

I have a few questions:

• What are the most important elements to look for?
• Are there affordable 4K/8MP brands/models with the pro's but not the con's?
• Does anybody have hands on experience with the UniFi products?
• Are there any alternatives comparable to the UniFi combo?

Thanks in advance for any help and advice.

 

[Sphinxicus]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

You have started in the right place by reading the cliff notes. I wouldnt say that the forum is biased towards Dahua/Blue Iris combo per say. There just happens to be a lot of members who have taken their time to write up their expriences with both brands vs others. However, there is a good reason why so many members have chosen this path. If the cameras and software did not make the grade, would so many keep using it and stay quiet about it?

To answer some of your questions:

• What are the most important elements to look for?
  • From my limited experience, this completely depends on what the aim of your setup is. Are you looking for overview cameras or quality face shots? The first thing i did (some time ago now) was use the IPVM Calculator to give me a ball park idea of views/aangles/distances that a camera would cover, then i bought a varifocal camera and placed it in all the locations i thought i wanted a camera (using a ladder, 2x4 batten of wood and some clamps). I cant emphasise enough how different the results were to what i expected when doing this. I came away realising that i needed more cameras than i initially thought to get the coverage with the detail i really wanted.
• Are there affordable 4K/8MP brands/models with the pro's but not the con's?
  • The IPC-T5442T-ZE 4MP seeems to be a great starting point to get you going with testing your locations and going by reviews is a great balance of high resolution matched with great nighttime performance. Read the reviews on this site. I can't comment on cons as i down own this camera (yet), but if you are concerned about the country of manufacture and network security? Simply ensure that these cameras are on a seperate well secured network with no access off that network.

You have also mentioned that you dont want a dedicated PC. You didnt state your reasons for this but that puts you down the NVR route. I would say, before making your mind up. Really do your research, get a camera, give Blue Iris a try (free trial for 15 days), give others a try like iSpy/Zoneminder etc. (you will see they are pants in comparrison for software in the same price range/open-source arena). If you still want to go down the NVR route, at least you are making an educated decision.

There are plenty of other members on here that are way more informed about all this than I am. So all i can really say is, read read read. There is so much info in this forum. I personally dont think anyone should rush into their end goal. In my experience, the more i learned, the more i realised what was importaint and what was actually possible. But for now, in my opinion, get a camera, decide what your goals are, test your locations with a specific aim in mind fo each camera (dont try to make one camera do too much, it will be a jack of all trades and master of none). Once you have done that, come back with any questions you have and people will always be glad to help.

Good luck

 

[pjdevries]

Thank you very much for your swift and elaborate response. I will definitely take your advice to heart. But if I understand you correctly, Black Friday and Cyber Monday are not very realistic if I want to make a well founded decision

 

[Sphinxicus]

But if I understand you correctly, Black Friday and Cyber Monday are not very realistic if I want to make a well founded decision

What i would say to that is; "Buy cheap, buy twice." You may get a "great deal" on something from the likes of the big box stores selling consumer grade hardware for the masses but I can tell you this now. If you want the following to be true, "...good quality images, both during the day and at night. Scoundrels should be clearly recognisable. " and rush into this by getting the nicely packaged "plug n play" camera setups, you WILL end up buying again. It's your money though so splash the cash now if you want

If you are serious about getting this right first time and dont want to be looking back at a blurry or over-exposed image from a camera that is placed too high to ID the chap who tried to kick your door in, then you would do well to take your time and research it properly.

Did you have an overall budget in mind? Do you have pictures of the area you are trying to cover etc? As you have found, there are so many options to choose from and there is no "one size fits all" option. It's nigh-on impossible for anyone to say, "go out and buy, x, y, z and you will be grand". I'll stop rambling now, im sure someone with first hand knowledge of many different cameras may be able to give you something more specific than I can, however, I don't believe there is anything that can match getting out there wwith a camera and physically testing your locations.

 

[pjdevries]

I appreciate your advice about testing first with a descent varifocal camera. And indeed, the IPC-T5442T-ZE has quite friendly reviews. Even on a respected Dutch forum. Unfortunately I can not find it anywhere in a Dutch web shop, which I very much prefer. I see it offered in EmpireTech-Andy's section on Amazon, but including shipping and import fees it sets me back an additional $50.00. So I'll try to find something similar. Defenitely not in a position to splash cash, far from it, but I do prefer to purchase something good, even if it's "only" for testing.

 

[Sphinxicus]

I see it offered in EmpireTech-Andy's section on Amazon, but including shipping and import fees it sets me back an additional $50.00. So I'll try to find something similar. Defenitely not in a position to splash cash, far from it, but I do prefer to purchase something good, even if it's "only" for testing.

I hear you and as others will attest to. You intend to buy a couple of cameras... but thats where the addiction starts

With regards to importing into the EU. Drop @EMPIRETECANDY a message through the forum or via email and speak to him about that subject. You may find that the import fees are not what you expect

 

[pjdevries]

You have also mentioned that you dont want a dedicated PC. You didnt state your reasons for this but that puts you down the NVR route.

The reason is two fold:

• I have enough computers running as it is and I'm not much of a system administrator (understatement).
• A dedicated PC means another investment.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Start out by looking in the WiKi in the blue bar at the top of the page. There's a ton of very useful information in there and it needs to be viewed on a computer, not a phone or tablet. The Cliff Notes will be of particular interest although the camera models listed there are a generation old at this point. The best way to determine what kind of camera you need in each location and where each location should really be is to buy one varifocal camera first and set up a test stand for it that can be easily moved around. Test using that, viewing using the web interface of the camera, during the day and at night. Have someone walk around behaving like a miscreant and see if you can identify them. There is also information for choosing hardware and securing the system along with a whole bunch of other good stuff.

Don't chase megapixels unless you have a really BIG budget. General rule of thumb is that a 4MP camera will easily outperform an 8MP camera when they both have the same sensor size. Reason being that there are twice as many pixels in the 8MP versus the 4MP. This results in only half the available light getting to each pixel in an 8MP that a pixel in the 4MP "sees".

A dedicated PC doesn't need to be either expensive to purchase or to run. A used business class machine can be had from eBay and various other sources. The advances made in Blue Iris make it easily possible to run a fairly large system on relatively inexpensive hardware whiich also makes power consumption low, as in under 50 watts in many cases. The biggest expenses turn out to be hard drives for storing video and a PoE switch to power the cameras and, of course, the cameras themselves.

Three rules
Rule #1 - Cameras multiply like rabbits.
Rule #2 - Cameras are more addictive than drugs.
Rule #3 - You never have enough cameras.

Quick guide -

The smaller the lux number the better the low light performance. 0.002 is better than 0.02
The smaller the "F" of the lens the better the low light performance. F1.4 is better than F1.8
The larger the sensor the better the low light performance. 1/1.8" is better (bigger) than 1/2.7"
The higher the megapixels for the same size sensor the worse the low light performance. A 4MP camera with a 1/1.8" sensor will perform better than a 8MP camera with that same 1/1.8" sensor.

Don't believe all the marketing hype no matter who makes the camera. Don't believe those nice night time captures they all use. Look for videos, with motion, to determine low light performance.

Read the reviews here, most include both still shots and video.

Rule of thumb, the shutter speed needs to be at 1/50-1/60 or higher to get night video without blurring.

The 5442 series of cameras by Dahua is the current "king of the hill". They are 4MP and capable of color with some ambient light at night. The 2231 series is a less expensive alternative in 2MP and does not have audio capabilities, no built in microphone.

5442 Reviews

Review-OEM Loryta IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal 4mp camera (Dahua)

IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal from @EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret Varifocal Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk store: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price Approximately US $200.00...

ipcamtalk.com

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

All, thanks to Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY ) we have a new 4MP AI camera for testing. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This camera is using the OEM model number of IPC-B5442-ZE which is the equivalent of the Dahua IPC-HFW5442-ZE for reference. The IPC-B...

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Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+

Dahua OEM IPC-T5442TM-AS from EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk store: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price Approximately US $160 Link to camera...

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Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+)

Dahua OEM IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED from EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Andy's Email: kingsecurity2014...

ipcamtalk.com

Review: IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI - Dahua Technology Pro AI Dome Network Camera

Hey, this is a wonderful forum, and since I’ve recently purchased a new set of Dahua cameras, I thought I’d share my thoughts and opinions. This camera is the IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI, and it’s actually the fourth camera from Dahua that I’ve purchased for my house over the years. Prior to this, I...

ipcamtalk.com

2231 Review

Review-OEM IPC-T2231T-ZS Ver 2, 2mp Varifocal Starlight Camera

Updated 12/11/19. Edited for clarity. Dahua OEM IPC-T2231T-ZS from EMPIRETECANDY 2MP WDR Turret Varifocal Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Old Timer]

The reason is two fold:

• I have enough computers running as it is and I'm not much of a system administrator (understatement).
• A dedicated PC means another investment.

There is nothing wrong with a NVR, I have a 3 NVRs in locations where it's way to harsh an environment then
I would want to put a PC, like in a barn. It's more of a "set it and forget it" way of doing things.
I can build a small box with filtered air and forget about the NVR.

I have since added more to the system to link the systems back to the house, but that's another post.

 

[pjdevries]

Thanx @sebastiantombs.

And thanx @Old Timer. I very much lean towards the "set it and forget it" approach. One of the reasons I considered the UniFi combo.

 

[sebastiantombs]

One of the major disadvantages of an NVR is that you are, more or less, locked in to the keeping the NVR and cameras all the same brand. With a VMS, like Blue Iris, you can use, almost literally, any brand or type of camera on the market. That can be a game changer.

 

[pjdevries]

So at the end of the day, it's all about a "set it and forget it" VMS, I guess

 

[sebastiantombs]

You do need to think it through carefully. There's a learning curve with any system but it is a much steeper curve with a VMS. Another advantage of a VMS is the flexibility it has versus an NVR. Either way you're still stuck with buying enough disk drive for video storage to meet your own system requirements. You can get a lot of questions answered here no matter which way you go, so assistance is usually right on hand and pretty quick. There are many experts with both systems here and they willingly share their knowledge, thankfully

 

[Old Timer]

Thanx @sebastiantombs.

And thanx @Old Timer. I very much lean towards the "set it and forget it" approach. One of the reasons I considered the UniFi combo.

I started that way and it worked fine. It's all about what you are comfortable about now, and you can always add later when
the budget and desire allows.

Years later I broke down and added a Blue Iris setup to bring 4 locations together so we could keep a better eye on things.
I still use the NVR at the locations for backup in case I lose the links, and to convert some old analog cameras to IP for remote access.

 

[pjdevries]

You do need to think it through carefully. There's a learning curve with any system but it is a much steeper curve with a VMS.

Being a software developer, I have a computer background fortunately. Although I don't like system administration and always get stressed out when a computer fails, I do have some experience. So as far as the software is concerned, I'm confident to get the hang of it quite fast. All the other, related stuff is not my area of expertise though.

Another advantage of a VMS is the flexibility it has versus an NVR.

That's very appealing for sure and a big advantage.

You can get a lot of questions answered here no matter which way you go, so assistance is usually right on hand and pretty quick. There are many experts with both systems here and they willingly share their knowledge, thankfully

This thread proves that point in an unambiguous manner

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

I hear you and as others will attest to. You intend to buy a couple of cameras... but thats where the addiction starts

With regards to importing into the EU. Drop @EMPIRETECANDY a message through the forum or via email and speak to him about that subject. You may find that the import fees are not what you expect

Free tax way still have, but will change from UK to France, so the later shipment will ship from China to France and then to EU countries. Need 2 weeks, tax prepaid.
So shipping cost will be a little higher than normal DHL/FEDEX shipping way.

 

[Old Timer]

Being a software developer, I have a computer background fortunately. Although I don't like system administration and always get stressed out when a computer fails, I do have some experience. So as far as the software is concerned, I'm confident to get the hang of it quite fast. All the other, related stuff is not my area of expertise though.

That's very appealing for sure and a big advantage.

This thread proves that point in an unambiguous manner

Good, any computer background will help with networks and setting up cameras.
A lot of people here have no idea, and have to learn everything to set up their systems.

Grab a variable focal (zoom) camera and a long patch cable to play with. Even the 2231T-ZS would give you a good start.
Empire can get the cameras to you, just check the shipping costs. Amazon is another way to buy. Laryta is the Empire brand for Amazon.

Amazon.com: Loryta IPC-T2231T-ZS 2MP Starlight WDR IR Eyeball Network Camera Motorized Vari-Focal 2.7mm–13.5mm Lens English Version: Home Improvement

Buy Loryta IPC-T2231T-ZS 2MP Starlight WDR IR Eyeball Network Camera Motorized Vari-Focal 2.7mm–13.5mm Lens English Version: Dome Cameras - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

Once you find out where you want cameras and what amount of zoom you need, then you can get the lower cost 2.8, 3.6, or 6.0mm cameras with fixed lens.
Don't know if you can buy from the store here, but I have some of the Amcrest (re-badged Dahua) cameras.

You can always upgrade to lower light cameras later and move the first cameras to other locations.

Don't limit yourself with a smaller NVR, you will find places to add cameras later and need a place to put them. I use the cheaper cameras for overview cameras (mounted at 40' on a tower), the Amcrest 8M works great for watching storms approach.

Just an FYI, If you have resources on a server, you can run Blue Iris in a VM is very easy, Hyper-V is probably the easiest.

 

[pjdevries]

@Old Timer Lot's of useful suggestions. Thanx.

I took the bull by the horns and ordered a IPC-T5442T-ZE from @EMPIRETECANDY. Like all of you suggest, I will use it to determine what I want & need.

I don't think I will ever need more than about 8 camera's, but I will not let the storage system be the bottleneck. Although probably not as "set it and forget it" as an NVR, I think I will go for a suitable PC with software. During the test & experiment phase, that will most certainly be a VM. That way I also still have the choice of Windows or Linux. I even have an official VMware Workstation license I can use for that

So now I have to wait for the camera. In the mean time I can get myself a POE capable switch and a lengthy cable that allows me to reach all corners of the area. Does anybody have specific advice for a brand and model POE switch?

 

[looney2ns]

I always have good luck with Netgears Pro Safe line.

There is no more to setting up Blue Iris, then there is to setting up an NVR. You can make BI as complex or as simple as you like.
I/ve reviewed a few NVRs, and all of them are lacking in some area or another.

 

[samplenhold]

What I am looking for, is a manageable system of a few outdoor camera's. It's a combined project of me and my neighbour. Nothing huge. Just two not very big, neighbouring houses on a dyke. We want to keep an eye on, front sides and back. The wish list I can think of, more or less looks like this:

• Stating the obvious, but good quality images, both during the day and at night. Scoundrels should be clearly recognisable.
• Remotely accessible but secure.
• Good quality, user friendly software. Preferably not on a dedicated PC.

You have been given a lot of great info so far. To reiterate, an NVR is just another computer. If you opt for a VMS, there is none better than Blue Iris for the price.

You have listed some wishes, but you really need a plan. A plan is very specific. But before you can make a plan, you need to define specific requirements. So you want to "keep an eye on, front sides and back". That is not very specific. You need to define what "keep an eye on" means. You could 'keep an eye on' those three places with only three wide angle overview cams, one looking at each. But is that what you really want? You also state "Scoundrels should be clearly recognizable". But even that is not specific. Do you mean that if a perp is present you want to be able to see that? Or do you mean you want to be able to describe their clothing and their facial features, with a shot of their face good enough for police to use? During daylight or night? In any given situation, the cams required to do one or the other would be very different. So you need specific requirements. That leads to what views will fulfill those requirements. Views will depend on your specific building and it's surroundings. Where are perps likely to enter? Are there areas that they MUST walk through to get there- choke points? What is the lighting like there? Can lighting be added for better night color performance? All of these types of questions will help you place your cams- choosing your views.

So for each view you need a list of requirements that the cam will need to give you what you want. For places where you just want a wide angle overview without getting facial features, a 2.8mm could work. If there is some light at night then the 5442 series could perhaps give you good color night caps. If totally dark, then a cam that performs well with IR would be good. If you have an area that is a choke point, where a perp will most likely walk through, then a good 6mm or varifocal cam, like the one you bought, would be more appropriate than a 2.8mm. So in purchasing cams, you make the decision based on the merits of the cam satisfying the requirements that you make for that view in your plan. That is a fit-for-purpose plan. I have 20 cams spread out over 11 models. Each cam was chosen based on it's features fulfilling the plan's requirements.

Having purchased that T5442T-ZE will be very helpful to you in defining you requirements. Put it on a test rig as described in the Cliff Notes. Move it around day and night. Walk through he field of view. Get to understand how it performs in different conditions. Realize that you will have to experiment with the exposure settings to get good results. Leaving them on defaults at night will probably be disappointing.

My test rig