Options for great low-light color cameras at distance

Masejoer

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We just had another issue on our street and have police involved. I have yet to find a good extremely-low-light camera that works with a telephoto range, and of course won't be a blurry mess. I get great video from the ultra-wide 1/1.2" cameras closer to the house, but the street/mailbox further away (we're in a flag log at the end of the dead-end street) is currently covered most effectively by one wide angle camera (vehicle color, few pixels), and two b&w/IR cameras that are zoomed to the road. One for plates, and one 1/1.8" ptz that I zoom in, but of course has a small aperture at telephoto distances.

What options, besides a huge micro four-thirds ptz, do I have to get at most a 25 degree fov, on a road with only one sodium lamp nearby, where I can't add lighting (not my properties near the street), but get better effective detail than what I have now with the 1/1.8" ptz? Is there anything? Is there any <$1000 larger-sensor box camera and fast-aperture lens that I can grab and use with my PoE/BI setup?

Thanks,



PS:
I will add that I did get "enough" - the police have the two people in custody as of a few minutes ago, and they are believed to have hit 15 other homes, but every time I need to obtain distant street-footage, I'm always let down by limitations of my current setup. This person was stupid enough to have their own plates on their own car, and the video clips were able to prove that they are the same person. The vehicle was linked back to mom's house, and the vehicle was home, as was the driver.

I wish I could just get the 1/1.2" sensor with a f/1.6 or faster lens in a medium telephoto focal length - I think that'd work okay for the lighting and shutter speeds needed for this location. 1/1.8" sensor zoomed all the way out at f/1.6 aperture is decent, but stopped down to f/2.8-f/4 when zoomed in is pretty useless for night/need switchover to IR.
 

garycrist

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Andy can get a great one killer and so the price. Find some video of this killer!
SD8C845FG-HNF 8MP 45x 1/1.2'' CMOS Dual Light Fusion Electronic Defog Network PTZ Camera
 

Masejoer

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Andy can get a great one killer and so the price. Find some video of this killer!
SD8C845FG-HNF 8MP 45x 1/1.2'' CMOS Dual Light Fusion Electronic Defog Network PTZ Camera
Thanks, I'll check it out. Those larger sensor PTZs do get quite big though, when I don't need anything except a fixed lens.

That price is around the same as the micro 4/3 ptz though - I'd think the larger sensor would be a better bet. They're all so big/heavy when they get over 1/1.8" though!

Anything smaller that can be recommended?
 

ipcamuser11

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Maybe don’t chase the sensor size but chase bigger pixel size? or resolution/sensor size ratio. And a bigger standalone C/CS mount lens
 

wittaj

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Care to share the photos and what you are getting from the 1/1.8" PTZ right now?

At what distance are you trying to cover?

Did they walk past your house? Do you have autotracking?
 

Parley

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Andy made a post about the new Wizmind X series cameras that are coming out soon. This one is a 8MP varifocal with a 8mm to 32mm lens. I do not know if that is enough magnification for you. Looks like these cameras are based on the new technology that the new 180 degree cameras are using. The LUX values look pretty good on paper. Here is the link.

IPC-HFW7842H-Z4-X (dahuasecurity.com)
 

Masejoer

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Maybe don’t chase the sensor size but chase bigger pixel size? or resolution/sensor size ratio. And a bigger standalone C/CS mount lens
Understandable, but I haven't been happy with my 1/1.8" 4MP cameras. I have probably 100 spare cameras in my garage that I've played with and replaced, or decided not to use, for various reasons.


Care to share the photos and what you are getting from the 1/1.8" PTZ right now?

At what distance are you trying to cover?

Did they walk past your house? Do you have autotracking?
Distance is right around 100 feet away, hence why I think that I can make a ~25 degree or more narrow lens work. Honestly the PTZ has been largely useless for my needs, but it's more a toy.

Auto-tracking was disabled temporarily (of course it was), so I only had a wide shot. I'm not concerned with that aspect - zoomed in, black and white with IR is generally okay, but we all know IR is mediocre at identification.. No, they did not go past the house - I'm tucked back from the dead-end street, "behind" the front yard of another house. My angle is from the rear corner of my house, across the front yard of the neighbor, at an angle, and have an annoying tree right in the center of my view which screws up IR/bounce back.

I'm just curious what options we have for COLOR in more than 2MP (really not happy today with 2MP for the amount of space I have to cover, besides license plate capture), with the limited light I have, and distance. Perfect to me would be one 35 degree fov large-sensor cam for color (4MP or greater), and one that's move like 15 degrees, but with the same ability to provide a reasonably detailed color photo with just the one sodium lamp nearby, but casts a shadow if the person were to face my cameras. The sodium lamp is further away than what I can capture.
 

Masejoer

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Andy made a post about the new Wizmind X series cameras that are coming out soon. This one is a 8MP varifocal with a 8mm to 32mm lens. I do not know if that is enough magnification for you. Looks like these cameras are based on the new technology that the new 180 degree cameras are using. The LUX values look pretty good on paper. Here is the link.

IPC-HFW7842H-Z4-X (dahuasecurity.com)
Surely not a fixed aperture f/1.6 lens? That seems like it would stop down as well, similar to the PTZ. I'll watch it though!
 

wittaj

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Is your PTZ the SD5A425XA-HNR? If you are not happy with that, I am not sure if you would be happy with anything else sub $1,000

Yeah sounds like you have a difficult location.

I use my autotracking PTZ to get a longer attempt at a good capture of someone that walks past my house that are beyond the IDENTIFY distance of the fixed and varifocal cams that would capture them if they came up to my house.

At 100 feet you should be able to get good IDENTIFY in B/W and supplement it with a color camera to capture color. Or maybe even color if there is enough light.

Without knowing anything about your setup - I assume you are not running auto/default settings and have adjusted the shutter to allow for clean capture?
 

Parley

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Here are the Lux specifications for my PTZ with the 4/3" sensor for comparison.

Color: 0.0005Lux@F1.6; B/W: 0.00005Lux@F1.6; 0Lux@F1.6 (IR on)
 

ipcamuser11

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Found a box camera with IMX585, 1/1.2" 8MP, SNR1s 0.17, replaceable C/CS mount lens

There's development board with IMX482 too, 1/1.2" 2MP, SNR1s 0.07, it's the most powerful low light performance sensor right now

More mature option is the IMX385, 1/1.8" 2MP, SNR1s 0.13. There are many professional box cameras with this sensor. I have tested one made by Hikvision
 

Masejoer

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Found a box camera with IMX585, 1/1.2" 8MP, SNR1s 0.17, replaceable C/CS mount lens

There's development board with IMX482 too, 1/1.2" 2MP, SNR1s 0.07, it's the most powerful low light performance sensor right now

More mature option is the IMX385, 1/1.8" 2MP, SNR1s 0.13. There are many professional box cameras with this sensor. I have tested one made by Hikvision
Great, I'm going to check these out! 1/1.2" 2MP does sound amazing.
 

Masejoer

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Is your PTZ the SD5A425XA-HNR? If you are not happy with that, I am not sure if you would be happy with anything else sub $1,000

Yeah sounds like you have a difficult location.

I use my autotracking PTZ to get a longer attempt at a good capture of someone that walks past my house that are beyond the IDENTIFY distance of the fixed and varifocal cams that would capture them if they came up to my house.

At 100 feet you should be able to get good IDENTIFY in B/W and supplement it with a color camera to capture color. Or maybe even color if there is enough light.

Without knowing anything about your setup - I assume you are not running auto/default settings and have adjusted the shutter to allow for clean capture?
Yeah, that model of camera, which I haven't been too happy with. I don't need the ptz features - just the zoom is nice to "play" with, but mostly a gimmicky thing that doesn't replace multiple fixed cams. Lack of consistently set focus at zoom for things like license plates made that idea still not work, so the IPC-HFW5231E-Z12E has to do for a little longer. It has borderline reach that I want, but can catch maybe 90% of plates.

I just want something that is more effective with color at night, less than $3k, but perhaps that's still unreasonable. I would think that a fixed-zoom lens option may exist, for closer to the $1k mark. PTZ to me is still mostly a toy - I have 9x fixed focal length cameras along the front of my house already, but nothing that has made me happy enough with street capture side of my setup. Even the LPR cam could use just a bit more on the telephoto end - 30% more would do me solid for that.

We have a lot of tents popping up near the neighborhood now, so I don't see this situation improving. The drug addict crisis somehow continues to get worse.
 

ipcamuser11

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Great, I'm going to check these out! 1/1.2" 2MP does sound amazing.
It's a development board and it's not using C/CS lens mount, you have to DIY yourself. Find a suitable box camera housing and a fixed IR filter mount
 

Masejoer

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It's a development board and it's not using C/CS lens mount, you have to DIY yourself. Find a suitable box camera housing and a fixed IR filter mount
Not something I'm against doing - I diy a lot of electronics. I assume 3d print an enclosure, and if none exist yet, draw one up.

That said, this also appears to be a basic video camera, without webserver or poe. It's a camera only I believe. I'll be looking into it a bit though. That said, by the time I could get something working for surveillance use, such a product may already be on the market. DIY can take a long time as a hobby/free-time project.
 

Masejoer

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The end of the road before it splits to 4 driveways. This is a SD5A425XA zoomed to catch the edge of the street on left, up to the mailboxes on the right. The tree causes auto-tracking to almost always fail, especially when leaves have grown in. Supplemental IR seen. One camera for the left of the tree, and one for the right of the tree, would give me decent coverage of the road where a lot of people turn around, and some commit crimes.

Not the intention of my post though - I've been messing with surveillance cameras for nearly 20 years now, originally professionally with analog systems. I'm just curious what better-options exist today, which aren't PTZ. While I'd prefer not use much bulkier box cameras with separate optics, I've used them plenty in the past. The tech nerd in me always wants to play with the new stuff, and learn about what else is coming out that may put a smile on my face when I review footage.
 

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ipcamuser11

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Not something I'm against doing - I diy a lot of electronics. I assume 3d print an enclosure, and if none exist yet, draw one up.

That said, this also appears to be a basic video camera, without webserver or poe. It's a camera only I believe. I'll be looking into it a bit though. That said, by the time I could get something working for surveillance use, such a product may already be on the market. DIY can take a long time as a hobby/free-time project.
Yes it's already a working camera, just without housing
 

Masejoer

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i really like my bullet version of 5442-z4.
i should have 2 of them pointing to same location because one could catch plates and the other could run color.
I'll check them out - I thought I had one of these, but apparently canceled the order. I still have an issue with zoom lenses though in that past the wide angle, they begin to have a lot of light dropoff. It wont' be f/1.6 at 32mm. It's similar to the single PTZ I have over there right now - 1/1.8" sensor with f/1.6 wide open, but it stops down a lot as it zooms. A 16mm fixed lens at f/1.6 and a 1/1.8" sensor at 2 or 4MP would begin to show potential to make me happy. Preferably 4MP on such a thing.

And yes, I understand the benefits of smaller sensors and slower lenses - deeper fov. Everything has its tradeoff, and in the end, adding more light is the proper solution, otherwise you need to stop down to get enough in focus when not focusing to infinity. The extra resolved detail from a larger sensor though, even with a slower/stopped-down lens to gain some dof, is worth it though. That was the only thing I liked about owning full frame cameras - the sharpness. The shallow dof and vignetting wide-open were huge turn offs for me, and why I eventually went down and stayed at aps-c cameras. It's all a tradeoff!
 
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