Smart camera, smart NVR, or both?
- Thread starter csJosh
- Start date
I never saw any problem/degradation with h264h comparing to plain h264 - so I use everywhere h264h.
bigredfish
Known around here
I believe thats reversed. H.264H is the "High" or best quality of the H.264 variants.
Plain H.264 is the"Baseline" " Main"
What Is H.264?
Plain H.264 is the
What Is H.264?
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Actually H264B is the "baseline"
H264H is the "high"
H264 is the "main"
All I was saying is H264 has been around the longest and is generally the "safest" one, especially if people start mix/matching brands and NVRs/VMS systems.
bigredfish
Known around here
H. Swanson
Pulling my weight
bigredfish
Known around here
Most here run 8192 at 15FPS for 4MP cameras. Bigredfish is one of the exceptions and runs most/all at 30FPS LOL.
Use that as the starting point and then go up and down bitrate until you don't see a difference.
Everyone's eyes and monitors are different. No sense running any higher than you need if your monitor or eyes cannot tell the difference.
What I do is start at 8192 and drop it to 7,000 and do a digital zoom comparison and then the same with bumping up to 10,000 and do a digital zoom comparison to 8192.
Once you don't see a difference, then you know the sweet spot.
Lower the bitrate, the more storage available but at a potential degradation to picture quality.
Higher the bitrate, the more storage needed but it can also introduce over sharpness in some field of views.
Also keep in mind that FPS comes into play as well.
The bitrate is set as a number KB/s, so how many frames per second is important in that number.
So lets use 8,192 KB/s as an example for the bitrate:
30FPS at 8,192 KB/s bitrate is 273KB per frame
15FPS at 8,192 KB/s bitrate is 546 KB per frame - or double the KB!
So depending on the max bitrate available in the camera, one may get higher bits per frame with a lower FPS and that could equate to better picture quality per frame!
So you have to take into account FPS when setting the bitrate.
And then of course the capacity of the VMS system being used. More cameras means your run into the MP/s limit faster the higher the FPS.
Use that as the starting point and then go up and down bitrate until you don't see a difference.
Everyone's eyes and monitors are different. No sense running any higher than you need if your monitor or eyes cannot tell the difference.
What I do is start at 8192 and drop it to 7,000 and do a digital zoom comparison and then the same with bumping up to 10,000 and do a digital zoom comparison to 8192.
Once you don't see a difference, then you know the sweet spot.
Lower the bitrate, the more storage available but at a potential degradation to picture quality.
Higher the bitrate, the more storage needed but it can also introduce over sharpness in some field of views.
Also keep in mind that FPS comes into play as well.
The bitrate is set as a number KB/s, so how many frames per second is important in that number.
So lets use 8,192 KB/s as an example for the bitrate:
30FPS at 8,192 KB/s bitrate is 273KB per frame
15FPS at 8,192 KB/s bitrate is 546 KB per frame - or double the KB!
So depending on the max bitrate available in the camera, one may get higher bits per frame with a lower FPS and that could equate to better picture quality per frame!
So you have to take into account FPS when setting the bitrate.
And then of course the capacity of the VMS system being used. More cameras means your run into the MP/s limit faster the higher the FPS.
H. Swanson
Pulling my weight
Thank you both. Regarding your FPS/bitrate examples, it’s counterintuitive to me. I thought higher FPS would yield better quality and would therefore require more processing/bandwidth, no?
Shutter speed is more important than FPS. The only way to freeze frame motion is with faster shutters, not more FPS.
And there is "controversy" or differences of opinion regarding FPS, just as there is with differences of opinion between an NVR and BI/PC.
The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...
But look at the firmware - it doesn't have you put in a bitrate per frame, it is bitrate per second.
So using basic math you simply divide the bitrate by the FPS to get the bitrate per frame per second.
Now to many people, they can't tell a difference running a camera at 8,192 bitrate and 15FPS versus 30FPS. But some can.
Many people don't see a difference in video motion between 15FPS and 30FPS. But some claim they can.
Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS:
Then of course you have the processor of the camera itself. Some cameras can struggle running 30FPS along with using some of the other spec'd parameters.
Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of every option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.
Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. They "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS. I run my LPR camera at 8FPS and with the tight field of view, I only get 4 frames per plate as the car is in and out of the field of view in half a second but I can still read it.
In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will alter something else like adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU, which then produces a smooth blurry image...that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. BTW we both have the same camera and we both run the same shutter speed, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard and in his camera's case, it is shutter speed that is crapping out.
We wouldn't take these cameras to an NBA game to broadcast, nor would we take the cameras they use at an NBA game to put on a house. Not all cameras are alike and the approach of "a camera is a camera" mentality will result in failure. Another example, I can watch an MLB game and they can slow it down to see the stitching on the baseball. Surveillance cams are not capable of that. You need to find a camera for the intended purpose.
Sure 30 or 60FPS can provide a smoother video but no police officer has said "wow that person really is running smooth". They want the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. So be it if the video is a little choppy....and at 10-15FPS it won't be appreciable.
I'm not saying my analogy of a car redline or MPG is a perfect analogy, but rather I am pointing out a fact that stuff we buy is always marketed as more capable than it is, especially if you are using all of the features. Does your car get its stated MPG in every situation - NO...
Can a little 4 cylinder base model Ford go up an interstate incline of 4% with the air conditioning at full blast at the speed limit - NO. I remember growing up we would have to turn off the AC going up big hills LOL. We called it turbo boost LOL.
Do we really believe every marketing claim of every product you see on Amazon?
Just like a computer - it is rated for this and that, but if you are running the CPU at 100%, something is going to give. Same with these little cameras with a lot less computing power.
So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range at idle with a static image, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.
Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.
This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.
At the end of the day, if the consumer wants cameras that can do 30FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.
And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection or only a few IVS rules and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.
And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature...
And of course with everything, YMMV.
And there is "controversy" or differences of opinion regarding FPS, just as there is with differences of opinion between an NVR and BI/PC.
The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...
But look at the firmware - it doesn't have you put in a bitrate per frame, it is bitrate per second.
So using basic math you simply divide the bitrate by the FPS to get the bitrate per frame per second.
Now to many people, they can't tell a difference running a camera at 8,192 bitrate and 15FPS versus 30FPS. But some can.
Many people don't see a difference in video motion between 15FPS and 30FPS. But some claim they can.
Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS:
Then of course you have the processor of the camera itself. Some cameras can struggle running 30FPS along with using some of the other spec'd parameters.
Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of every option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.
Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. They "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS. I run my LPR camera at 8FPS and with the tight field of view, I only get 4 frames per plate as the car is in and out of the field of view in half a second but I can still read it.
In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will alter something else like adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU, which then produces a smooth blurry image...that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. BTW we both have the same camera and we both run the same shutter speed, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard and in his camera's case, it is shutter speed that is crapping out.
We wouldn't take these cameras to an NBA game to broadcast, nor would we take the cameras they use at an NBA game to put on a house. Not all cameras are alike and the approach of "a camera is a camera" mentality will result in failure. Another example, I can watch an MLB game and they can slow it down to see the stitching on the baseball. Surveillance cams are not capable of that. You need to find a camera for the intended purpose.
Sure 30 or 60FPS can provide a smoother video but no police officer has said "wow that person really is running smooth". They want the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. So be it if the video is a little choppy....and at 10-15FPS it won't be appreciable.
I'm not saying my analogy of a car redline or MPG is a perfect analogy, but rather I am pointing out a fact that stuff we buy is always marketed as more capable than it is, especially if you are using all of the features. Does your car get its stated MPG in every situation - NO...
Can a little 4 cylinder base model Ford go up an interstate incline of 4% with the air conditioning at full blast at the speed limit - NO. I remember growing up we would have to turn off the AC going up big hills LOL. We called it turbo boost LOL.
Do we really believe every marketing claim of every product you see on Amazon?
Just like a computer - it is rated for this and that, but if you are running the CPU at 100%, something is going to give. Same with these little cameras with a lot less computing power.
So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range at idle with a static image, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.
Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.
This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.
At the end of the day, if the consumer wants cameras that can do 30FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.
And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection or only a few IVS rules and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.
And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature...
And of course with everything, YMMV.
bigredfish
Known around here
Color4K-T Turret
16,384 bitrate
CBR
30FPS with an Iframe of 60 (as this seems to help with the pulsing of these 4Ks)
Shutter = 0 - 2.5ms
Only difference is 30FPS (my normal) vs 15FPS
Best quality snapshot export from NVR (.png) shows EXACT same size. Big files. Go full size
30fps- 24,342KB
15fps- 24,342KB
16,384 bitrate
CBR
30FPS with an Iframe of 60 (as this seems to help with the pulsing of these 4Ks)
Shutter = 0 - 2.5ms
Only difference is 30FPS (my normal) vs 15FPS
Best quality snapshot export from NVR (.png) shows EXACT same size. Big files. Go full size
30fps- 24,342KB
15fps- 24,342KB
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bigredfish
Known around here
Same as above but 30 second (exact) clips. Almost no difference in file size approx 1000KB
30fps- 62,587KB
View attachment Home_ch5_20231209123145_20231209123215.mp4
15FPS- 61,485KB
View attachment Home_ch5_20231209123310_20231209123340.mp4
30fps- 62,587KB
View attachment Home_ch5_20231209123145_20231209123215.mp4
15FPS- 61,485KB
View attachment Home_ch5_20231209123310_20231209123340.mp4
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bigredfish
Known around here
One thing to note is that if you’re playing the above videos on a so/so connection or less than full power pc, you may see some stutter the first time you play it. Usually the second time (due to cache?) it typically plays smooth
Yep and then we get things like that LOL. the picture size is larger than the bitrate and throws every thought out the window LOL.
Basically it comes down to each persons setup (camera make/model and VMS platform), along with their monitor, network topology, and field of view that ultimately determines the setup.
Heck my two 5442 cams bought at same time basically seeing the same field of view from different angles runs different bitrates based on how I test them LOL.
We give recommendations, but then people should do their own testing with their own setup and field of view to determine which works best for their system.
Basically it comes down to each persons setup (camera make/model and VMS platform), along with their monitor, network topology, and field of view that ultimately determines the setup.
Heck my two 5442 cams bought at same time basically seeing the same field of view from different angles runs different bitrates based on how I test them LOL.
We give recommendations, but then people should do their own testing with their own setup and field of view to determine which works best for their system.
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H. Swanson
Pulling my weight
Is controlling shutter speed only available through an app like Blue Iris? I can't find it in my camera UI.
Shutter speed is within the camera GUI. Also known as Exposure in some cameras. And sometimes then under the Exposure option and then shutter.
Best option is Manual so that you can do shutter and gain control.
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bigredfish
Known around here
bigredfish
Known around here
Just becasue I'm curious, I did another test on the whole FPS thing, same results. I think there's a datapoint missing from the theory.
FPS doesnt seem to affect the exported single frame image size unless I'm doing something wrong?
Images are virtually identical as are the videos in overall size. Only difference is this time the export was from SmartPSS
30FPS vs 10FPS
10,240 bitrate, all else left unchanged
Pics - 2334 vs 2247 KB
Videos- 18,819 vs 18,815KB
View attachment Home_ch6_20231211181900_20231211181915.mp4
View attachment Home_ch6_20231211181600_20231211181615.mp4
FPS doesnt seem to affect the exported single frame image size unless I'm doing something wrong?
Images are virtually identical as are the videos in overall size. Only difference is this time the export was from SmartPSS
30FPS vs 10FPS
10,240 bitrate, all else left unchanged
Pics - 2334 vs 2247 KB
Videos- 18,819 vs 18,815KB
View attachment Home_ch6_20231211181900_20231211181915.mp4
View attachment Home_ch6_20231211181600_20231211181615.mp4
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I just played around my 5442 camera settings, comparing:
I downloaded the AVI files (using something akin to SmartPSS), verified the encodings using "ffprobe -i", and stepped through frame-by-frame using VLC (with "E" key).
The H265 didn't look any worse than the H264. In both cases, I could see some artifacts around objects in motion (eg my hands or my head), and the artifacts looked a little different between the two, but I couldn't discern any large macro-block-style artifacts.
Maybe 8192 is a high-enough setting that it avoids those macro-blocking issues?
Josh
- H265, smart-codec, VBR, quality 6 (best), 8192 max bit rate
- H264, General, CBR, 8192 constant bit rate
I downloaded the AVI files (using something akin to SmartPSS), verified the encodings using "ffprobe -i", and stepped through frame-by-frame using VLC (with "E" key).
The H265 didn't look any worse than the H264. In both cases, I could see some artifacts around objects in motion (eg my hands or my head), and the artifacts looked a little different between the two, but I couldn't discern any large macro-block-style artifacts.
Maybe 8192 is a high-enough setting that it avoids those macro-blocking issues?
Josh
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Keep in mind macroblocking is more when there is no motion. Let the image sit static for awhile and compare video of non-moving field of view. Also look at digital zoom.
Plus if you run both at 8192, you kinda defeat the purpose of H265, which is it can run in theory lower bitrates for the same "image" and thus less storage. In theory you should be able to run H265 at 4096 bitrate to produce the same image of H264 at 8192 bitrate.
Also keep in mind some cameras will be better at H265 than others. Many cameras the H265 is inefficient.
Further some players may have trouble with H265. It sucks to export out video to the police and they can't watch it and then you have to convert the H265 to H264.
H264 has been around long enough that almost anything can handle it.