Suggestions to mitigate poor night time quality vs day light.

Injunfarian

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Now here is a question, I have the 2431 Camera which is the 4MP camera however the resolution can be turned down on it via the camera's settings webserver... If i was to turn it down to have the same resolution as the 2241 the 2MP camera would my 4MP camera turned down perform better at night and possibly just as well as the 2MP camera?
 

wittaj

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Downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 4 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 4MP to 2MP. The sensor still needs 2 times the light going from 4MP to 2MP, so the native 2MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 4MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 2MP.

I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY here based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.
 

Injunfarian

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Shoot, I thought I was onto something there for a second but at the same time I knew I shouldn't get my hopes up.. I was already planning a schedule system to lower/raise the resolution depending on time of day.
 

wittaj

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Shoot, I thought I was onto something there for a second but at the same time I knew I shouldn't get my hopes up.. I was already planning a schedule system to lower/raise the resolution depending on time of day.
Yeah many of us have been there, including me LOL. it just doesn't do that.

Here is a real world example from a 2MP and 4MP model camera on the same sensor.

Here is the 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:


2MP.jpg



Here is the same camera model except it is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 2MP above.

Here is the first big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared:


4MP.jpg



The first thing you notice is that downrezing the 4MP down to a 2MP doesn't result in the camera being able to run color like the native 2MP as the sensor still doesn't see enough light to run in color because the 4MP "pixel screen" simply isn't letting enough light get into the optics of the sensor.

That is a big deal with low light conditions and why you want to go with a native resolution and preferably a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio that is talked about here often. The native resolution may be able to be in color, but the higher resolution on the same size sensor probably won't with low light conditions.

Then in this case, you can see that the 4MP was struggling to even give definition compared to the 2MP. It is wet out so the rain reflections is wreaking havoc with the infrared and focus.

So when I downrezed but kept the bitrate the same, it still looks like a soft mess. Even if there is less noise in this instance, it still doesn't look as good as the native.


4MP downrez 2MP.jpg



And the less light that is available, the bigger the difference one will see. Personally, for me the difference between being able to run it in color versus B/W is enough of a reason to go with the the camera that is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio talked about here so much.

As always YMMV.
 

Injunfarian

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Thank you for those examples, it definitely puts things in perspective...
Now just to wait for the next seasonal sale from Andy to purchase some camera's with appropriate sized sensors lol.
 

Redbone

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That is a budget camera that puts 8MP on the same size sensor meant for a 2MP, so the 2MP will kick its butt all night long. That camera will just simply struggle at night.

With that said, it appears you are on default/auto settings and that never results in a good picture and that is why you get ghost blurs at night.

Now in terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures. You need to get off of default. These are done within the camera GUI thru a web browser.

Start with:

H264
8192 bitrate
CBR
15FPS
15 iframes

Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.

We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.

Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.
Implemented the suggested changes yesterday. Notice a vast improvement with reduction of ghosting and motion blurring. I have two of these and plan to change them within the next few weeks. Decided to go with a 5442 3.6mm for the driveway. Not sure what would be ideal for the front door landing. Currently camera is located in corner of covered porch. Only concern is that I can't see delivered items once they are on floor level. Big thanks for the camera configuration suggestions.
 

Redbone

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Feedback to many suggestions. The recommendations made a big difference regarding ghosting at night. I should be receiving a IPC-HDW5442TM-AS-LED to replace the driveway camera and if it works out well will also replace front door ceiling patio cam with similar.
 

bigredfish

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Implemented the suggested changes yesterday. Notice a vast improvement with reduction of ghosting and motion blurring. I have two of these and plan to change them within the next few weeks. Decided to go with a 5442 3.6mm for the driveway. Not sure what would be ideal for the front door landing. Currently camera is located in corner of covered porch. Only concern is that I can't see delivered items once they are on floor level. Big thanks for the camera configuration suggestions.
I just happened to hang a 5442 3.6mm turret today for the back porch door. Used crossing ones at our previous house for the driveway. Still hard to beat and light sensitive enough that a $40 Mr Beams 400 watt light will kick them into color. Running Manual 1/120 and 8192 bitrate

View attachment Home_ch5_20230508214149_20230508214207.mp4


















And a 3400 lumen motion light makes all the difference
Home_IPC_main_20230508212850_@5.jpg


* And yes the mosquitos will flat pick your ass up and carry you away after dark. The joys of living on the water in FL
 
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JDreaming

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I just happened to hang a 5442 3.6mm turret today for the back porch door. Used crossing ones at our previous house for the driveway. Still hard to beat and light sensitive enough that a $40 Mr Beams 400 watt light will kick them into color. Running Manual 1/120 and 8192 bitrate

View attachment 162320


















And a 3400 lumen motion light makes all the difference
View attachment 162321


* And yes the mosquitos will flat pick your ass up and carry you away after dark. The joys of living on the water in FL
Whoa..... I don't even want to step outside the backyard patio during the summer with just few mosquitos flying around. For some reason mosquitos love my blood more than others. :confused:
 

Redbone

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I just happened to hang a 5442 3.6mm turret today for the back porch door. Used crossing ones at our previous house for the driveway. Still hard to beat and light sensitive enough that a $40 Mr Beams 400 watt light will kick them into color. Running Manual 1/120 and 8192 bitrate

View attachment 162320


















And a 3400 lumen motion light makes all the difference
View attachment 162321


* And yes the mosquitos will flat pick your ass up and carry you away after dark. The joys of living on the water in FL
Nothing beats real world testing, shout out for posting. Do you mean 400 lumens vs 400 watts? The achilleas heel of the 5442 LED is that it does not have an I.R. filter vs the other variants of the 5442. I plan to test the eyeball / turret 5442 LED with their led's disabled to judge it's 1.8 low light capabilities vs my current cam with I.R. On my other 3 cams which have built in led warm lights I have disabled them at night as they've attracted flying bugs and spiders that trigger the motion sensor and installed a 8 watts amber led bulbs 10-15ft away. I know longer have false triggers or need to sweep spider webs of the camera in the summer months. The amber / yellow light is easy on the eyes while providing enough light for color night viewing and recording.
 

Perimeter

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The achilleas heel of the 5442 LED is that it does not have an I.R. filter vs the other variants of the 5442. I plan to test the eyeball / turret 5442 LED with their led's disabled to judge it's 1.8 low light capabilities vs my current cam with I.R.
Currently, there are TWO variants of the 5442 LED around. One at 1.8, the other at 1.0. The 1.0 variant collects roughly 3 times the light. I bought the 1.0 lens and find it fantastic. If you can provide a 4W LED light source somewhere near, you are already good to go. I suspect that they cut out the IR ability, because a 1.0 lens may have difficulty with chromatic aberration. Imho that is the reason why they make dual lens cams with seperate color and IR optics.
 

bigredfish

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Nothing beats real world testing, shout out for posting. Do you mean 400 lumens vs 400 watts? The achilleas heel of the 5442 LED is that it does not have an I.R. filter vs the other variants of the 5442. I plan to test the eyeball / turret 5442 LED with their led's disabled to judge it's 1.8 low light capabilities vs my current cam with I.R. On my other 3 cams which have built in led warm lights I have disabled them at night as they've attracted flying bugs and spiders that trigger the motion sensor and installed a 8 watts amber led bulbs 10-15ft away. I know longer have false triggers or need to sweep spider webs of the camera in the summer months. The amber / yellow light is easy on the eyes while providing enough light for color night viewing and recording.
Sorry yes good catch, 400 lumens on the Mr Beams

I ran the 5442 LED bullet at my old house at the front door, did well, but then I did have another light to help it. The one with IR above as you can see, does pretty well at 1/120 with just IR and switches to color pretty quickly
 

Redbone

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Just ordered a IPC-HDW5442TM-ASE the I.R. version vs my initial L.E.D. IPC-HDW5442TM-AS-LED variant. Going forward I won't be ordering any further camera's without I.R. capability as I prefer to turn off the built in camera lights and use offset lighting or I.R. illuminators. Lights on camera attracts too many flying bugs and subsequently spiders which cause false triggers.
 
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