Testing roundup IPC-HDBW4431EP-AS versus IPC-HDBW5431E-Z

[TVT73]

Hi guys,
Here it goes,
I received for a testing purpose 2 cam´s. It should replace my children's room ptz cam.
Some comments and thoughts about that can be found here. To say it directly, I am no friend of dome cams. There are to much negative points of the dome, p.e. ir clouding in the dome, daylight reflections. Unfortunately these ones are not build with audio out/alarm in/out. So if you need this, you must chose a dome version.

Both cams are easy available in Europe/Germany. Although these are no starlight versions I want to see if they are reliable. I also have a HDW5231E-Z, so i know it´s nearly impossible to beat this perfectly performing cam...

The first one is a cheap IPC-HDBW4431EP-AS 2,8mm (104°) and the second one is much more expensive (nearly twice), IPC-HDBW5431E-Z. Both cams have audio in and out, the feature set is nearly the same, except the objective, which is on paper better with the zoom version. The IR Led´s are also different but both are with 30m classified.

The datasheed says:

HDBW4431:
Lens Type Fixed
Focal Length 3.6mm (2.8mm, 6mm optional）
Max. Aperture F2.0 (F2.0. F2.0)
Angle of View H: 87° (104°, 55°), V: 48° (57°, 31°)
Optical Zoom N/A Focus Control Fixed
Close Focus Distance N/A

HDBW5431:
Lens Type Motorized/ Auto Iris(DC)
Mount Type Board-in
Focal Length 2.7mm~12mm
Max. Aperture F1.4
Angle of View H: 100°~35° , V:54°~20°
Optical Zoom4x
Focus Control Motorized
Close Focus Distance 0.3m

On the paper this means, that the zoom version has two times more light available and minimum illuminations is a bit better (HBDW5431 with 0.03Lux/F1.4 (Color); 0Lux/F1.4 (IR on) vs HDBW4431 0.08Lux/F2.0 (Color), 0Lux/F2.0 (IR on))

Lets look on some pictures and comments:

As you can see, the size is really different. The mini dome is really mini. And here i can notice the first disadvantage of the mini dome:
- All I/O are fixed. In case of using a public fitting it´s really difficult to put all in the fitting.
- The zoom one has connectors inside. Fine if you didn´t need everything, But not easy to connect audio.
- A big difference is the heat dissipation! The big dome has been in ir mode less cooler than the mini dome. The mini dome will always be hand warm.


A closer look brings another disadvantage, or lets better say a design problem of ip67:

You can see an open hole! This is the cable outlet. The Zoom Version is 100% ip67 rated, it has a removable silicon hole filler. Why did dahua miss this for the hdbw4431?!?

The IR Leds:

Normally I see advantages for high power leds. Previously i thought the 5431 has much more IR power, because of the third led and more power rated. (12,5W! compared to <5W) And yes it rates it really because my 1,5A power supply will not work 100% with it, although it should. My 15W POE works fine.

One interesting difference to the pics from dahua are the lens shades of the 5431. You can see one spot angle and 2 wide angle leds. This looks as a very good idea. ( A surprise will come !)

On the pictures you can see a good working ir rubber ring on the lens. This is working nearly perfect and prevents the ir light to gives cloud effects to the night view picture. But be aware of going to deep with the lens. It must have all around contact with the dome glass. If not you will notice cloud effects!
With this modification compared to other cheap manufacture of dome cams one dome disadvantage is minimised.
Anyway, it can not prevent side light effect of reflections on the dome glass outside. But the lens is really near to the glass, it´s not that much as expected!

Quality and Inside differences:

The big one is totally different inside. Here i found an analogue video out, and a secure lock cable of the dome. Reopening it is save when you works not on a table...
Both cams have a reset button (i love it) and the 5431 looks all including more qualitative.
When the lens is compared, you see that the Zoom one is nearly double sized, therefore it can pass more light. But it has more lens compared to a fixed focus for zoom and focusing. Does it really gives more light like the datasheet says?

Lets compare the still picture quality:
Both cams are at maximum vbr bitrate, everything else is default. The ambient light is not very much. But its enough to have full details.

starting with the HDBW5431
4MP focus 520 2MP focus 520 4MP 2MP
now HDBW4431

I can´t see no detail difference although the bigger angle of view. And what I really did not expected, for the short distance the IR of HDBW4431 performs very well! You see a better coverage and in the center the picture is not over lighted. Surprise, Surprise. The cheaper cam is beating a much expensiver one.
Comparing 4MP mode to 2mp in night view shows although i use the better focus point slightly better details.
At day time its more noticeable:


Of course, this is an indoor shooting. Outdoor I am sure, when the field view is smaller and zoomed in, a 5431 one will be much better performing.

@all:
I will try my best, although nayr´s testrounds are much more i can give

 

[TVT73]

Placeholder Videos

 

[TVT73]

noticed bugs:
no testing without problems. I found an really bad thing, which will be hopefully with a firmware release be solved.
It belongs the HDBW5431E-Z and maybe every zoom version. I noticed it also with a IPC-HFW2221R-ZS.
It belongs to the focus point. When the cam has auto focused at day everything is fine. Now if the cam switch to night view you can notify an unsharp picture. At the first point you may think ok, it´s a poor night view quality, but if you refocus you will receive a much better and sharper picture!!!

I can show it on example pictures:

it´s digitally zoomed with optimal daylight focus, switched to night view, the details are low

now I used autofocus again. The details are much more! When I switch back to daylight view, now this one is defocused.

using autofocus again:


I would like to know, if anyone can reproduce this on any zoom cam from dahua. I think it could be easily solved by a firmware update, because when the cam stores for day and night 2 different focus points every thing will be fine. Of course we need to do it by ourselves because in setups with manual focus points the cam shouldn´t start autofocus.

The next ones are with focus point from day autofocus 480, night autofocus 520:

focus 480 focus 520
now with focus from night view:

daytime focus

 

[TVT73]

the finalized summary:

HDBW5431:
Although i on the first days i didn´t see any advantage for the better aperture, it´s there. Without 3dnr you can see much more snow in the picture with an hdbw4431. And on sunny weather the picture quality is also better than with the fixed lens of hdbw4431.
Unfortunately at night, there is a lower picture detail level than on the 2mp day picture. Combined with the different focus point you will loose again detail level and at night for lower distances the picture is diffuse.
The dome himself causes many disadvantages. Mounting is difficult on a wall, the zoom lens needs to be near the centre on the dome, otherwise you will get IR problems (LEDS will be covered of the dome base, IR LEd needs to be under the zoom objective, but then we have a poor IR range in rooms. The overall homogeneous IR light is not really good. Powerful yes, but mostly in the centre. I know better ones and I had expected more for it.

Because of that, and no one want to auto focus 2 times a day by hand, I can´t give the much expensiver hdbw5431 compared to my HDW4431EM-AS any recommendation for indoor use or closer distances.

HDBW4431:
On the positive side there is the low budget price and a very well working IR, better for closer distances as HDBW5431. On the other side, we get a much lower LowLight performance, but without focus problems. Despite this the cam will be fine for overview useage (104°) without security use.

For both cams together, i have learned, IR clouding is not a problem, when the cam has optimum mounting positions. Anyway, i will stay with using HFW or HDW ones. Only when someone need audio out and indoor use, i see an usefull setup for a HDBW one. Especially the little dome looks discreet.

 

[TVT73]

I would like to ask all of you using a newer zoom cam like 5231 or 5431, can anyone reproduce in shorter distances around 4m the focusing difference between color and ir mode like me? For indoor usage it´s a really ugly problem.

 

[Korgoth]

Is there any "defocus" alarm in the settings, that can be used to auto-focus when switching from IR to color?
I will try to reproduce this problem when I get back to office next week.

 

[wopi82]

On the paper this means, that the zoom version has 2.4 more light available

How did you calculate, the amount of light reaching the sensor? Comparing the lenses on both cameras, the difference between f1.4 and f2.0 is exactly 1EV which means in case of HBDW5431 there is twice the amount of light entering the camera.

 

[TVT73]

you are right, my fault, I correct it to 2 time more. Thank you. 1.4 is for the EV serie the next full number.

 

[wopi82]

I'm new to the forum, and not sure if I click it correctly, but the frames, you've posted from both cameras are only fullHD format. Is it possible for You, to post these in full resolution? I was planning to buy HDBW4431 with exactly same 2.8mm lens. Luckly (or not) I went through Nayr's thread about HDW5231R-Z, which destroyed my whole plan for buying HDBW4431. Nevertheless I'm still interested in this model, and would love to see your further testing.

What puzzles me, is that Nayr was comparing night shots of HDW5231R-Z to HFW4421D-AS and the difference was huge in favor of the HDW5231R-Z. HFW4421D-AS looked blurred and had little detail. Today I went through this thread (Dahua 4mp, 6mm turrets (IPC-HDW4421C)) where Larebear was able to tweak the HDW4421C image settings to get very acceptable night results, despite the default settings result was terribly blurred and useless. I wonder what would be the effect of comparing tweaked correctly HDBW4431 to HDW5231R-Z. You own both. Would it be possible to compare them?

 

[TVT73]

I have not written the conclusion yet, but i can say if you don´t need audio in or external mic, don´t choose any hdbw version. Especially for outdoor usage the dome has disadvantages, although they are not so big as expected.
At the moment i have problem loading the videos to youtube, i need to do them again, because in 4MP youtube can´t use them.

The low light performance is far away from a 5231r-z, this picture is without 3dnr with hdbw4431:

Now with hdbw5431:

it´s only a 15W LED Light on.
The only thing to get better night results is to use less 3dnr and use manual shutter speed. For outdoor you need additional ir leds and depending on the distance and FOV much more power. I pimped my caravan cam up with an external 9W IR LED Spot at 90°, now i can use it without BLC and much lower 3DNR and faster shutter speed. Anyway, i still have problems with faster moving objects.

If your budget allows it, better buy a starlight version. You won´t regret it. All others can be used for non security setups or with enough light (ir or visible). If you search for my postings you will find several other pictures which are showing how good or not they are.

And tweaking should not be necessary for having an acceptable video stream. Better use less digital optimizations, the results are better videos with more details. On the other hand, on one would like to have a picture like the one above. The 3DNR ist working good, but reducing it to the lowest best looking setting is better then default 50.

I will see when i can post the next pictures. The difference between 4mp and 2mp is only at day with enough light visible. It´s only a very small advantage and plus for details.

 

[TVT73]

Update focus problem with pictures captures in fullres from webif. First comparison pictures night view 2mp vs 4mp.

 

[TVT73]

Is there any "defocus" alarm in the settings, that can be used to auto-focus when switching from IR to color?
I will try to reproduce this problem when I get back to office next week.

I know this setting, but the cams doesn´t have them. You can see the focus point hoovering with the mouse over the bar. I had begun to add comparison pics. For 3m distance its only a difference from 480 - 520. Tomorrow i add daytime comparisons.

 

[TVT73]

Here some comparison pictures for 2mp and 4mp with HDBW5431. The difference is at day noticeable, at night or low light the detail level is much lower than on daytimes 2mp. 4MP LowLight 2MP LowLight 4MP defocus 2MP 4MP

I have moved the cam. With the new mounting point i need to move more to the left, but it´s not possible because of the housing will cover the left ir led and the ir lens cover is on the maximum left position.

Old Position: new position:
If you look closer, you can see how difficult a dome mounting can be...
The solution is coming this weekend.

 

[TVT73]

Hey guys,
I decided to give the comparison another cam, my order of a IPC-HDBW5231R-Z is on the way. Thanks @EMPIRETECANDY