Upgrading my system.....

[Keizer]

I made a post back in January about updating my NVR but after doing some research here I have decided I want to upgrade my entire system. Currently I have an older 2K Lorex system that I installed over six years ago. It's been fine but I get alot of artifacts I guess you would call it? Goes from really clear picture to slightly blurry and back during the day. If I zoom in the picture is really blurry. I can't even get a good pic of a license plate during the day hours. And quite frankly the night vision is really poor. In the cameras defense I don't have much in the way of night time lighting but the cameras have IR and the night time video is still bad. I live on acreage so it gets dark at night. So maybe there's not a camera made that can give me good night vision?? I don't have a problem putting up some outdoor lighting. Basically this current system has worked well for viewing wild life and such but I have always been a little let down with the picture quality.

I'm including a top view pic of my home and the current camera setup. Each red dot is a camera and the white lines illustrate the direction they point. I have two more cameras inside the house. As you can see I do have a blind spot in the one location in the back yard. Cams 1,3 and 6 cover my entry doors. Cam 2 looks out at my entry gate and cul-de-sac drive and is actually one of my most important cameras. I've left on vacation before and forgot to close the gate only to see that it was left open viewing it remotely on Cam 2. Most of the trees you see out in front of Cam 2 are now gone. Cams 4 and 5 point at my shop and back yard.

So after researching here on the site I really think I dropped the ball on my original system because I didn't know anything about sensor size, adding additional night time lighting, etc. As far as additional night time lighting, I have coach lanterns on the front of my shop as well as the smaller garage that I have out in front of the house. I have always left them off but was thinking I could add some LED bulbs and light things up in those areas for starters.

So I was looking at these particular cameras sold by our good friend Empire Tech Andy. I was wondering how well they would work if I added additional night time lighting as well as using the built in LED's on the camera?

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-Full-Color-Syarlight-Turret-IPC-Color4K-T/dp/B0BKRKSWSY/ref=psdc_14248481_t1_B08LCY27TD?th=1

I was thinking about buying one and just testing it out.

One thing I was thinking about in the Cam 2 location is installing a PTZ camera. Something that could zoom in to get a really good look at my gate as well as see any cars that may drive down my cul-de-sac. I get occasional hunters that like to park on my property and I don't want them chasing/killing my pet deer.

So knowing my situation are there any helpful suggestions? I'm thinking I want to just ditch any type of NVR and use Blue Iris. I have used the trial and it seems pretty nice.

Thanks for any help!!

 

[wittaj]

Glad to see you are thinking about this.

Many of us have been burned by the all in one box kits. We like the I can see the whole property wide angle aspect, but then when something happens we realize how poor they perform.

Blue Iris is great!

What you are experiencing with the Lorex and plates will be the same no matter how great the camera is, including the great 4K/T you are looking at.

We really need OPTICAL zoom, not DIGITAL zoom. Digital zoom only works on TV and the movies. We may get away with a bit of digital zoom in the day, but at night forget it. You need the correct focal length for the area you want to cover.

Keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to OPTICALLY zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP 5241-Z12E camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

See the LPR subforum for lots of examples.


The 4K/T is a great camera, but it isn't magic and does need light. If you do not have white light or do not want to run it with the built in white LEDs, then you are better off with the 5442 series that can see infrared. The 4K/T is great for IDENTIFY at 15ish feet out, but beyond that you need a different camera, plus it cannot see infrared, so you cannot add it later.


What you really need to decide is what function do you want each camera to be - is it an overview or identify and then get the proper camera for that distance.

See this thread for the most commonly recommended camera based on the the distance to IDENTIFY. These recommendations represent the best overall value in terms of price, performance day and night, and reliability.

Remember one camera cannot be the be all/see all. Each one is selected for a purpose.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

 

[Keizer]

There's only one way onto my property with a vehicle so license plate viewing would default to the Cam 2 position. I'd think this would be the only spot where I would need a camera capable of optical zoom. Cam positions 1,3 and 6 are more for being able to identify someone up close coming up to one of my three entry doors. I also see my deer quite often with Cam 3 further out. I actually wouldn't mind being able to use optical zoom with the camera 4 position as well to help identify anyone right out in front of my shop. I suppose color isn't really a necessity at night and I actually have the 5442 series camera book marked and was looking at them first.

If the built in LED's were on with the 4K/T cams and there was no other night time lighting, would you still get a good color picture?

 

[wittaj]

Yes the white LED of the 4K/T is more than enough if you are ok with them on.

I would probably still go with the 5242E-Z12E to make sure you have enough zoom for the camera to capture plates.

 

[Keizer]

Yes the white LED of the 4K/T is more than enough if you are ok with them on.

I would probably still go with the 5242E-Z12E to make sure you have enough zoom for the camera to capture plates.

Are those built in LED's on the 4K T annoyingly bright? I was thinking with them on, that alone would be a bit of a deterrent. I was thinking about those at the Cam 1,3 and 6 locations for my entry doors. I assume the LED's have a time schedule to turn them off during the day? And yes something like the 5242E-Z12E in the Cam 2 and 4 positions for incoming plate identification for my driveway, and being able to Zoom in on my shop/wood shed area. I love laying in bed at night and look at Cam 4 on my phone and tell Alexa to turn on my outside wood shed light. It's nice to be able to see things lit up out there.

 

[wittaj]

Annoyingly bright is relative LOL. One of the many reasons why people don't use the built-in light is that depending on where they are located on the house they may look out of place or awkward or my shine in a neighbors window (which doesn't look like the case for you) so instead they rely on other ambient lighting from the house.

Think about a couple of cellphone flashlights pointed at you - the white LED is bright looking straight into them.

Here is what it looks like with the LED at 100%. Camera on the left, a flashlight in the middle, and a cellphone on the right.

And with just the camera on the left and a cellphone flashlight on the right.

And yes you can set them to come on to max brightness of 20% until say 10pm, and then 100% during middle of the night, etc. and they go off in the day when there is enough light.

 

[Keizer]

The camera LED's seem pretty bright. That would probably be kind of annoying in the summer when you spend alot of time outside.

 

[wittaj]

Hence why most either go with cameras that have infrared capabilities or they have enough ambient light that they do not need the built-in white LED.

I can say they are only "annoying" if you are looking right at them. I wouldn't say that it illuminates the area a lot - just enough to take advantage of the larger sensor - most flashlights will be brighter.

But as you said, having them on could be a deterrent as well.

By the way these are not motion activated - they are either on or off. Now in BI I have hacked a way to make them motion activated LOL.

But that is the nice thing about BI is you could create a profile such that these lights are not on when you are outside.

 

[Mike A.]

The on-board LEDS also tend to "tunnel vision" things for lack of any better description. Even on manual, the camera adjusts the overall image to the exposure of the lighter area. You'll have a fairly small area lit by the LEDS and everything else outside of that will be dark. Much better if you have more ambient/off-camera lighting for the overall area. Then you'll get a much better overall image. The LEDs could work well if you have a smaller, closer area that you're trying to cover. For a typical area looking out over a yard, etc., off-camera lights will give a much better results.

 

[Keizer]

Hence why most either go with cameras that have infrared capabilities or they have enough ambient light that they do not need the built-in white LED.

I'm starting to think that the 5442's might be a better fit. Have you or others tried the vari-Focal IPC-T5442T-ZE cameras? Just wondering if they are worth the price difference compared to the fixed lens 5442 model.

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-IPC-T5442T-ZE-Vari-Focal-Eyeball-Starlight/dp/B08LCY27TD/ref=psdc_14248481_t3_B0BRQ6ML1K?th=1

 

[wittaj]

Yes, I have several of the 5442-ZE.

I highly recommend the varifocal so that you can optimize your focal length for the area you are trying to cover.

You have had the Lorex long enough that you don't you wish the zoom was a little better? OPTICAL zoom will beat DIGITAL zoom all night long.

Even the areas I knew would be covered by a 3.6mm fixed lens I wish I had opted for the varifocal later.

 

[Keizer]

Yes, I have several of the 5442-ZE.

I highly recommend the varifocal so that you can optimize your focal length for the area you are trying to cover.

You have had the Lorex long enough that you don't you wish the zoom was a little better? OPTICAL zoom will beat DIGITAL zoom all night long.

Even the areas I knew would be covered by a 3.6mm fixed lens I wish I had opted for the varifocal later.

I'm thinking the zoom is going to be way better than these Lorex cams. I'd post a pic of one of my Lorex cams zoomed in but you'd probably start laughing. On 2nd thought, here's a zoomed in photo of a pile of branches from Cam 5.

 

[wittaj]

LOL, but for digital zoom nope! Like I said, digital zoom only works in the movies and on tv. You need optical zoom if you care to actually see anything.

Now if you are talking about the 5442 varifocal optically zoomed to that field of view, then yes it would be better than that digital zoom.

But if your Lorex are 2.8mm cams and you get a 5442 2.8mm cam, the digital zoom will look about the same.

Here is a great example of two images taken at the same time (early AM while still dark out) of the same person 60 feet away from just slightly different angles - one from the 5442-ZE 4MP set to 3.6mm that I digitally zoomed to make the person about the same size as the person in the 2MP varifocal optically zoomed.

So think of this compared to a plate. Notice how you can read some of the stickers in the optically zoomed image, and it is just a blur in the digitally zoomed image.

The digitally zoomed image can't be used for much.

Now compare this to a 2MP that is OPTICALLY zoomed.

In case someone cannot figure it out, the 4MP that is digitally zoomed in is the B&W picture and the 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in is the color picture LOL. I think everyone will say the 2MP that is OPTICALLY zoomed beats a higher MP that is DIGITALLY zoomed. The 5442-ZE also benefited from having infrared in addition to the white light.

Or here was a thread where a person came here complaining the image quality of the digital zoomed 8MP wasn't much better than the image quality of a digital zoomed 3MP. Digital zoom just doesn't cut it after a little bit.

8mp vs 3mp image comparison

hello, I have an 8mp 1/1.8" sensor PCI-T18F2S on the top and 3mp 1/3" sensor DS-2CD2132F-IS on the bottom. Both cameras are 2.8mm and the cereal box is at 15 feet in both cases. I would expect a much better image from the 8mp. What do you think? I'm sure you would like to have a lot more...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Keizer]

LOL, but for digital zoom nope! Like I said, digital zoom only works in the movies and on tv. You need optical zoom if you care to actually see anything.

Now if you are talking about the 5442 varifocal optically zoomed to that field of view, then yes it would be better than that digital zoom.

But if your Lorex are 2.8mm cams and you get a 5442 2.8mm cam, the digital zoom will look about the same.

Here is a great example of two images taken at the same time (early AM while still dark out) of the same person 60 feet away from just slightly different angles - one from the 5442-ZE 4MP set to 3.6mm that I digitally zoomed to make the person about the same size as the person in the 2MP varifocal optically zoomed.

So think of this compared to a plate. Notice how you can read some of the stickers in the optically zoomed image, and it is just a blur in the digitally zoomed image.

The digitally zoomed image can't be used for much.

Now compare this to a 2MP that is OPTICALLY zoomed.

In case someone cannot figure it out, the 4MP that is digitally zoomed in is the B&W picture and the 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in is the color picture LOL. I think everyone will say the 2MP that is OPTICALLY zoomed beats a higher MP that is DIGITALLY zoomed. The 5442-ZE also benefited from having infrared in addition to the white light.

Or here was a thread where a person came here complaining the image quality of the digital zoomed 8MP wasn't much better than the image quality of a digital zoomed 3MP. Digital zoom just doesn't cut it after a little bit.

8mp vs 3mp image comparison

hello, I have an 8mp 1/1.8" sensor PCI-T18F2S on the top and 3mp 1/3" sensor DS-2CD2132F-IS on the bottom. Both cameras are 2.8mm and the cereal box is at 15 feet in both cases. I would expect a much better image from the 8mp. What do you think? I'm sure you would like to have a lot more...

ipcamtalk.com

What 2MP camera model were you using in this comparison? How would have it looked on the 5442-ZE 4MP had you optically zoomed in?

 

[wittaj]

The 5442-ZE optically zoomed at max zoom will cap out at IDENTIFY at 25ish feet and this was at 60 feet so the digital zoom will still be poor, so the 5241-Z12E is needed for that distance.

 

[Keizer]

The 5442-ZE optically zoomed at max zoom will cap out at IDENTIFY at 25ish feet and this was at 60 feet so the digital zoom will still be poor, so the 5241-Z12E is needed for that distance.

My pile of branches pic was roughly 30' from the camera so I assume a 5442-ZE optically zoomed on the same pile would look way better. How many of those 5241-Z12E cameras do you have in service? I'm thinking at least one of those pointed out at my gate will be needed for that distance.

 

[wittaj]

Yes at 30 feet the 5442-ZE fully optically zoomed image will be better than a digitally zoomed image of a 2.8 or 3.6mm lens.

But keep in mind a varifical is a set it and forget it as they are not designed for constant zooming in and out. If you want that you need a PTZ that is designed for that kind of movement.

I have several Z12E cams - a few for plates and a few optically zoomed in at pinch points.

 

[Keizer]

Yes at 30 feet the 5442-ZE fully optically zoomed image will be better than a digitally zoomed image of a 2.8 or 3.6mm lens.

But keep in mind a varifical is a set it and forget it as they are not designed for constant zooming in and out. If you want that you need a PTZ that is designed for that kind of movement.

I have several Z12E cams - a few for plates and a few optically zoomed in at pinch points.

I tossed the idea of a PTZ camera around in my head. One of those would probably come in handy to replace Cam 2 in the pic of my home. I could pan the cul-de-sac as well as zoom into my gate to see if it closed or open. Even zoom in on the occasional car that sometimes parks in front of my gate.

 

[Ri22o]

These are my 5442T-ZE at full zoom. Approximately 33 feet and 25 feet, respectively.

 

[Keizer]

These are my 5442T-ZE at full zoom. Approximately 33 feet and 25 feet, respectively.

View attachment 158234View attachment 158235

That looks really nice!!