User-friendly NVR and remote viewing?

[Gigapalooza]

I've been tasked to recommend a small setup for a non-profit, likely 3-4 cameras max.
Personally, I run a Dahua NVR5216-4KS2 and several IPC-HDW5442T-ZE (from Andy). The cameras are fantastic, but I've never 'mastered' the NVR. The interface seems like a prettied up version of systems I set up 25 years ago.

Other than BI, are there 3rd party NVRs that have a more logical interface and one that delivers a smooth experience to less technical end-users?

Dahua (and Hik) seem to have a poor security / vulnerability track record. Any improvements in that area?
The most recent firmwares are 2 years old now for my system.

I'm trying to steer them away from 'lesser' cameras like Reolink, but the NVR & remote friendliness baked into those is hard to overcome.

Can we 'have both'? Great cameras and better NVR/remote features?

 

[mat200]

I've been tasked to recommend a small setup for a non-profit, likely 3-4 cameras max.
Personally, I run a Dahua NVR5216-4KS2 and several IPC-HDW5442T-ZE (from Andy). The cameras are fantastic, but I've never 'mastered' the NVR. The interface seems like a prettied up version of systems I set up 25 years ago.

Other than BI, are there 3rd party NVRs that have a more logical interface and one that delivers a smooth experience to less technical end-users?

Dahua (and Hik) seem to have a poor security / vulnerability track record. Any improvements in that area?
The most recent firmwares are 2 years old now for my system.

I'm trying to steer them away from 'lesser' cameras like Reolink, but the NVR & remote friendliness baked into those is hard to overcome.

Can we 'have both'? Great cameras and better NVR/remote features?

How much are they willing to pay ?

So the general answer from business that sell security camera systems for a one time fee, is to expect limited upgrades.

Basically IoT business model .. make a product, sell, and do not spend much developing it further once the units are sold.

If you want constant updates then expect a monthly service fee .. and still sooner or later as the units age they will no longer be supported .. like pcs and windows os ..

I do not think there is a great solution for what you are asking for.

 

[bigredfish]

I've yet to have a Dahua NVR hacked.

The latest models are quite good, quite secure (more so than your average PC) and IMHO far simpler to use than most PC based VMS systems.

 

[Gigapalooza]

I've yet to have a Dahua NVR hacked.

The latest models are quite good, quite secure (more so than your average PC) and IMHO far simpler to use than most PC based VMS systems.

At what point did Dahua NVRs become 'quite good'? And did firmware updates resolve the past issues?

 

[Gigapalooza]

How much are they willing to pay ?

I understand your point of view as a commercial business, but this is a volunteer effort for a non-profit.
I'm determining options and budget, and setting expectations accordingly.
Nowhere did I define expectations as 'constant updates and will work forever' - nor do they expect that.

As to the firmware updates (or lack thereof) - yes I expect to see more than 24 months of updates after spending $200 per camera. That's not unreasonable.
Having a service contract with a 3rd party does not fix that.

 

[mat200]

I understand your point of view as a commercial business, but this is a volunteer effort for a non-profit.
I'm determining options and budget, and setting expectations accordingly.
Nowhere did I define expectations as 'constant updates and will work forever' - nor do they expect that.

As to the firmware updates (or lack thereof) - yes I expect to see more than 24 months of updates after spending $200 per camera. That's not unreasonable.
Having a service contract with a 3rd party does not fix that.

Yes I understand .. however it seems the options are limited

NVR systems .. Hikvision and Dahua oem are imho the best option for most, as they each have many models of cameras to pick from.

Blue Iris or other VMS on a PC + Hikvision or Dahua oem cameras which meet standards are good.

There are other vendors of cameras, however few here have reviewed them ..

Reolink .. while they are getting more versions of cameras they still have significant limits on better performance in low light. So for most of us that means they fail to meet our requirements on that.

Then there are cloud based cameras .. which often imho has good ui but bad image capture issues and reliability.

This is why I recommend getting to the core requirements and go from there.

For me it was getting chances at an ID image in both low light and daylight.

 

[steve1225]

Personally, I run a Dahua NVR5216-4KS2 and several IPC-HDW5442T-ZE (from Andy). The cameras are fantastic, but I've never 'mastered' the NVR. The interface seems like a prettied up version of systems I set up 25 years ago.

Other than BI, are there 3rd party NVRs that have a more logical interface and one that delivers a smooth experience to less technical end-users?

I saw many NVR interfaces from many brands and I must say that the latest Dahua NVR UI is the good one in NVR world...
Better (much easer to use, much nicer and much modern) is only Unifi Protect.
But Unifi protect is very proprietary system, which only works with theirs no so good cams.

In Dahua NVR UI there some problems in a few places... But every major firmware release brings many nice updates every year...

In Your case problem is that You bought very old version - 5xxx-4ks2 is a NVR from 2017... It had many major firmware updates up to 2022, but now is a deprecated model.. It was replaced by 5xxx-EI (-AI)..

Dahua (and Hik) seem to have a poor security / vulnerability track record. Any improvements in that area?
The most recent firmwares are 2 years old now for my system.

Poor track record is a very old story for Dahua..
In a last 5 years they redone all private protocols, default settings on cams/NVRs. Now everything is encrypted..

 

[looney2ns]

Any NVR will take some learning on the owners part. Nothing works without a little effort put forth.

And stay away from Reolink except for their recent Doorbell cam release.

 

[Gigapalooza]

In Your case problem is that You bought very old version - 5xxx-4ks2 is a NVR from 2017... It had many major firmware updates up to 2022, but now is a deprecated model.. It was replaced by 5xxx-EI (-AI)..

I purchased it in 2020 from Andy. As I recall at that time it was the current model.
Now this makes we want to look into current NVRs but I haven't found a web demo of the interface/improvements. This is encouraging!

 

[Gigapalooza]

Any NVR will take some learning on the owners part. Nothing works without a little effort put forth.

And stay away from Reolink except for their recent Doorbell cam release.

Oh I've had much effort put forth over years. It works. The direct attached experience is far better than the mobile access options. and that's where I'd like to see improvements.
Specifically, the event thumbnails are excellent - but only accessible in the direct access view.

 

[steve1225]

I purchased it in 2020 from Andy. As I recall at that time it was the current model.
Now this makes we want to look into current NVRs but I haven't found a web demo of the interface/improvements. This is encouraging!

This is 2023 UI demo:


In last 2 weeks we are testing first major update for 2024:

37.96 MB file on MEGA

mega.nz

 

[Gigapalooza]

@steve1225 that was an excellent video.
It confirmed that the OS is the same, with new features added. And for working from the NVR directly, there are powerful options available.

Back to my original question on recommending options for a very small non-profit...
AND - to clarify the goal:
Non-technical end-users want to easily access the cameras and review events from mobile phones (iOS and Android). Example: something sets the alarm off at 3am - rather than get up and drive to the building, they can review and see if there are obvious issues or a false alarm.

DMSS appears to be the current mobile solution.
I find the interface is nonintuitive and requires a lot of steps to finagle a desired view.
Perhaps I've overlooked another app, or an 'easy mode'. That's why I'm asking here.

Consumer focused brands have intuitive mobile viewing options, but terrible camera options.
Can one have both? Great cameras (sensors) and an intuitive mobile experience?

 

[mat200]

@steve1225 that was an excellent video.
It confirmed that the OS is the same, with new features added. And for working from the NVR directly, there are powerful options available.

Back to my original question on recommending options for a very small non-profit...
AND - to clarify the goal:
Non-technical end-users want to easily access the cameras and review events from mobile phones (iOS and Android). Example: something sets the alarm off at 3am - rather than get up and drive to the building, they can review and see if there are obvious issues or a false alarm.

DMSS appears to be the current mobile solution.
I find the interface is nonintuitive and requires a lot of steps to finagle a desired view.
Perhaps I've overlooked another app, or an 'easy mode'. That's why I'm asking here.

Consumer focused brands have intuitive mobile viewing options, but terrible camera options.
Can one have both? Great cameras (sensors) and an intuitive mobile experience?

"Can one have both? Great cameras (sensors) and an intuitive mobile experience?"

Probably need to look at consumer cloud cameras .. and give up on great cameras, and just get acceptable consumer grade UI

 

[Gigapalooza]

Probably need to look at consumer cloud cameras .. and give up on great cameras, and just get acceptable consumer grade UI

Personally, no way I'd go to a cloud solution. But that's a separate need.

The non-profit I'm helping would have one-time costs covered by a grant. A recurring cost cloud business model isn't supportable.
Example: They could spend $2000 to get a decent setup, but would hope to have usable mobile access to it without monthly charge.
They paid an alarm company to setup the system, but use manual monitoring /alerts.

Consumer model is minimal upfront costs with forever cloud costs. (thus crappy hardware).


Oh well.

 

[steve1225]

AND - to clarify the goal:
Non-technical end-users want to easily access the cameras and review events from mobile phones (iOS and Android). Example: something sets the alarm off at 3am - rather than get up and drive to the building, they can review and see if there are obvious issues or a false alarm.

DMSS appears to be the current mobile solution.
I find the interface is nonintuitive and requires a lot of steps to finagle a desired view.
Perhaps I've overlooked another app, or an 'easy mode'. That's why I'm asking here.

1. Do You use DMSS in Dahua cloud account mode (You are logged to cloud)?
with NVR added over P2P (serial number, no IP address)?

Only in this mode, DMSS properly receive and shows SMD or IVS events per each channel (under camera live view screen).
Which allows to fast find interesting footage from history events..

2. There is ImouLife - Dahua sub brand with consumer products.
They have own app which is much nicer / easer to use - but have much less features...

This app can be only used in P2P mode with ImouLife account...
Big problem is that one NVR can be added to only one Dahua or ImouLife accounts at once - so You can't use both apps..

If You want migrate from one to second app, You must remove NVR from previous account..

Consumer focused brands have intuitive mobile viewing options, but terrible camera options.
Can one have both? Great cameras (sensors) and an intuitive mobile experience?

they don't exists... yet...

Dahua / HIK both sucks in apps (mobile / computer)..
HIK even sucks in NVR web/local interface (Dahua done huge progress in last years)..

As I wrote before Unifi Protect have very nice web and mobile apps.. Very easy to use...
But cams sucks, most of them are cheap junk..
There is one or two highest priced models which have better performance, but they are bellow our gold standard (5442)..

 

[Gigapalooza]

1. Do You use DMSS in Dahua cloud account mode (You are logged to cloud)?
with NVR added over P2P (serial number, no IP address)?

Glad you bring that up. Given the drumbeat of distrust and security concerns in these forums, I opted to not use a 'cloud account', and benefits were unclear to me.
Perhaps that was the missing link. Thank you for mentioning it.

At the moment, I have P2P, upnp, multicast, etc. turned off. My IP remains mostly static and could utilize DDNS if needed.
Port-forwarding with non-standard assignments until I can setup a VPN.
My current router (EdgeRouter Lite) is great, but would require some scary CLI work to setup OpenVPN.
(Bracing myself for the onslaught of 'the Chinese army will blow into your NVR without VPN' comments!)

If P2P is considered safe(r) than IP, I have some experimenting to do.

 

[steve1225]

At the moment, I have P2P, upnp, multicast, etc. turned off. My IP remains mostly static and could utilize DDNS if needed.
Port-forwarding with non-standard assignments until I can setup a VPN.
My current router (EdgeRouter Lite) is great, but would require some scary CLI work to setup OpenVPN.
(Bracing myself for the onslaught of 'the Chinese army will blow into your NVR without VPN' comments!)

If P2P is considered safe(r) than IP, I have some experimenting to do.

There is tons of network crawlers which test every IP and every port combination available in internet.
If they will found open TCP/IP port, they will start to scan what service is on that port..
Scanners can easy detect HIK / Dahua private protocol..
So router port forwarding isn't a secure solution at all.. Even on non standard port numbers..

With P2P NVR isn't available from internet. Only reacts to connect requests redirected by Dahua Cloud with ip address/port number of client (DMSS).
Using some tricks both ends (DMSS and NVR), hidden behind theirs firewalls, they connect with each other and client authenticate.

With P2P NVR is 24/7 connected to Dahua cloud and there is some risk that "big bad Chinese company" will hack Your NVR using some backdoor Especially that Your are some super important and secret government institution which hold some super secret information worth hacking

No one proven to this day that Dahua (or China) actually used this cloud connection (and some hidden backdoors in NVR/cams firmware) to gain access to any footage.

In my opinion (25+ of network engineer) much bigger risk is from open port and using some crawlers/scanners. Not from open connection with manufacturer cloud.

Today each modern device (smartphones, tv, speakers, intelligent bulbs/switches, sensors, alarms, vacuum robots, kitchen appliances) is somehow connected with manufacturer cloud. And most electronics nowadays are produced in China.

 

[Gigapalooza]

In my opinion (25+ of network engineer) much bigger risk is from open port and using some crawlers/scanners. Not from open connection with manufacturer cloud.

Today each modern device (smartphones, tv, speakers, intelligent bulbs/switches, sensors, alarms, vacuum robots, kitchen appliances) is somehow connected with manufacturer cloud. And most electronics nowadays are produced in China.

This may be the most straightforward advice I've seen here.
Agreed, non-standard ports are just a speed bump. I feel better about the P2P now.

As I recall, there was a vulnerability with Dahua that allowed multiple login attempts on a port (37777) perhaps?

 

[steve1225]

As I recall, there was a vulnerability with Dahua that allowed multiple login attempts on a port (37777) perhaps?

Yes, there were dark times (pre 2017) when both HIK / Dahua have high number very easy used vulnerabilities.
But both companies after a lots of bad press, heavy invested into upgrading security of theirs products / protocols.

This is why for example old Dahua NVR's don't work with newest cams - newest cams (or NVR) don't supports older versions of protocols, which were vulnerable to different attacks.. other example - in next month older Dahua apps (iDMSS, gDMSS, old versions of SmartPSS) will lose access to Dahua P2P network.

New more secure versions are available from many years in a new products (or in firmware updates) - and now Dahua finally is killing support for that old one...