Voltage drop over Cat5e

Basjke

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The website has a similar explanation, but doing it manually goes over my head lol.

VOLTAGE DROP


Voltage drop is given by the following formula :



Where :

U : Voltage of the DC or AC system (V)
This is phase-phase voltage for 3-phase system; phase-neutral voltage for single-phase system.
Example :
- For western European countries a 3-phase circuit will usually have a voltage of 400 V, and single-phase 230V.
- In North America, a typical three-phase system voltage is 208 volts and single phase voltage is 120 volts.
NB: for DC voltage drop in photovoltaic system, the voltage of the system is U = Umpp of one panel x number of panels in a serie.
ΔU : voltage drop in Volt (V)
b : length cable factor, b=2 for single phase wiring, b=1 for three-phased wiring.
ρ1 : resistivity in ohm.mm2/m of the material conductor for a given temperature. At 20 celcius degree °C the resistivity value is 0.017 for copper and 0.0265 for aluminium.
Note that resistivity increases with temperature. Resistivity of copper reaches around 0.023 ohm.mm2/m at 100 °C and resistivity of aluminium reaches around 0.037 ohm.mm2/m at 100 °C.
Usually for voltage drop calculation according to electrical standards it is the resistivity at 100°C that is used (for example NF C15-100).
ρ1 = ρ0*(1+alpha(T1-T0)), here ρ0 = resistivity at 20°C (T0) and alpha = Temperature coefficient per degree C and T1 = temperature of the cable.
T1 : Temperature of the cable (default value = 100°C).
Note that from experience, a wire with a correct sizing should not have an external temperature over 50°C, but it can correspond to an internal temperature of the material around 100°C.
L : simple length of the cable (distance between the source and the appliance), in meters (m).
S : cross section of the cable in mm2
Cos φ : power factor, Cos φ = 1 for pure resistive load, Cos φ< 1 for inductive charge, (usually 0.8).
λ : reactance per length unit (default value 0.00008 ohm/m)
Sin φ : sinus (acos(cos φ)).
Ib : current in Ampere (A)

NB : For DC circuit, cos φ=1, so sin φ=0.

Voltage drop in percent :
ΔU(%) = 100 x ΔU/U0
Where :

ΔU : voltage drop in V
U0 : voltage between phase and neutral (example : 230 V in 3-phase 400 V system)
 

Basjke

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It's all simple math. Not hard at all using Ohm's Law.
Probably so for you, but not so for someone who left school 45 years ago, and didn't do university.

Can you please do the calculation, using your method, and with the details provided by the cable manufacturer?
 

Teken

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By the way, this is a voltage calculator I used, and which gives totally different results. 21AWG = 07229 mm²

Any idea why they come to a completely different result?



View attachment 132895
I'm not sure where you're getting 21 AWG diameter from?? Standard certified CAT5e cable is 24 AWG which is smaller / thinner vs 21 AWG which is bigger / thicker. Which can carry more amperage as it has less resistance.
 

Basjke

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I'm not sure where you're getting 21 AWG diameter from?? Standard certified CAT5e cable is 24 AWG which is smaller / thinner vs 21 AWG which is bigger / thicker. Which can carry more amperage as it has less resistance.
Because you use 2 pairs, which equals to 21AWG

1657298694305.png
 

Basjke

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Basjke

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Can you check this website please. It has a separate calculator for AC and DC, and depending on the AC or DC, the voltage drop is calculated different.

 

sebastiantombs

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I haven't been in school for over 50 years and don't have a degree in anything other than being old. Math is like riding a bike, you never forget how if you do it once in a while.

R = .00938 per meter (9.38/100)

R at 35 meters = .00938x35
E=12

With those two numbers you can solve for anything.

If you use two pairs you can halve the resistance.
 

Teken

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Because you use 2 pairs, which equals to 21AWG

View attachment 132901
Alright let me try to simplify this for you the best I can as I'm sure those who stumble upon this thread may learn and gain some insight.

- All of the online calculators assume a single core conductor not something running in parallel.

- When someone wants to reduce resistance they can use better material, increase the diameter, decrease temperature, or bundle more wires Together etc. There other ways but this is out of scope for this discussion and would lead to more questions and confusion.

- When something is running separate and but in parallel any voltage / current / resistance division assumes the same amount of V / C / R is present.

- Resistive / Complex: Almost all calculators assume a very simple resistive circuit. As I noted early on two things which was a minimum wire diameter of 23 AWG should be used in 2022. Next, was the 80% rule which means you should never exceed the ampacity (current) of any conductor.

Why??

Because there are dozens of things that can change which directly impacts how much something will consume (power). Case in point almost every modern electronic security camera incorporates a regulated power supply. This is what allows it to operate in a wide range from 9~15 VDC on a 12 VDC input power. Unlike a pure resistive circuit Ohms Law assumes what goes up will go down like voltage / current. But in a modern camera (depending upon quality and design) these cameras when they see less voltage do not reduce current but will increase in current draw or remain the same.

If the former this will cause an increase of (amperage) on the line thus heating up that super thin hair like 24~32 AWG Ethernet wire and if you're already at the 80% ampacity it will melt / break open.

All of the above is being provided to you for more insight and context as to the Why's. As noted early on using the 18-2 two which you already have will remove the Ethernet cable element.
 

Basjke

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Alright let me try to simplify this for you the best I can as I'm sure those who stumble upon this thread may learn and gain some insight.

- All of the online calculators assume a single core conductor not something running in parallel.
The calculator @TonyR kindly provided, doesn't assume a single conductor.


1657299945221.png
 

Basjke

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Ohms Law

P=IE
I=P/E
E=P/I
E=IR
I=E/R
R=E/I

Where E is voltage, I is current in amperes, R is resistance in ohms and P is power in watts.

You can easily find the resistance of any gauge of copper conductor.
I'm sorry, call me stupid, but this still goes over my head

I can't figure from what you posted how to calculate the voltage loss
 

Teken

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The calculator @TonyR kindly provided, doesn't assume a single conductor.


View attachment 132904
That doesn't change the hard fact you're at the limits of what is acceptable. You have 18-2 power wire just use it and move on because ignoring the facts is going to cost you money & time.
 

mattp

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That doesn't change the hard fact you're at the limits of what is acceptable. You have 18-2 power wire just use it and move on because ignoring the facts is going to cost you money & time.
Look, this is the internet...we're not not governed by the laws of physics on the internet like we are in the real world...
 

Basjke

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Look, this is the internet...we're not not governed by the laws of physics on the internet like we are in the real world...
Maybe someone should create a calculator which takes in accounts those laws of physics.;)
 

Griswalduk

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Voltage drop 1 pair is 12v - (9.38/100*35*2)*(8.6/12) = resulting in 7.3v across the load (camera)

Voltage drop 2 pair is 12v - ((9.38/2)/100*35*2)*(8.6/12) = resulting in 9.65v across the load (camera)

Or put more simple since the resistance is halved the original volt drop will also be half of 4.7v.

If you must go down this route for whatever reason use suitably sized proper power cable.
 

Teken

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Look, this is the internet...we're not not governed by the laws of physics on the internet like we are in the real world...
Ah the Matrix . . . Should have taken the red pill :lmao:
 

Griswalduk

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For further consideration power lost in the cable using 1 pair is given by P = I^2 R
Using the figures above (0.716*0.716)*(9.38/100*35*2) = 3.7w

Loss as a percentage per camera is 8.6/3.7*100 = 43%

Personally I would apply the laws of physics and use the saving to process alcohol to urine and piss the loss up against the proverbial wall lol :D
 

Basjke

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For further consideration power lost in the cable using 1 pair is given by P = I^2 R
Using the figures above (0.716*0.716)*(9.38/100*35*2) = 3.7w

Loss as a percentage per camera is 8.6/3.7*100 = 43%

Personally I would apply the laws of physics and use the saving to process alcohol to urine and piss the loss up against the proverbial wall lol :D
Not sure how you calculate the power loss, neither why you consider 1 pair, when it's clear the balun uses 2 pairs.

The power supply provides 20A, divided by 6 cameras, I don't understand why power loss is even considered.

And for savings, if I have to pay for the additional power cable, it will be mineral water for a while lol
 
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