What is the extra capability of Face Detection vs. IVS or MD?

Kinchyle

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I have a Dahua NVR5216-4ks2 and 2mp Starlight Camera.
I setup a Camer on the front door and thought it would be cool to use Face Detection. I thought that if it picked up on a face it would snapshot and store somewhere on the NVR that you could ftp or get access. It looks like it's more a trigger (i.e. see something that looks/shaped like a face and do something).

If it's just see face record and not store face for later analysis I think I'd have better capability at the front door to just record when it see's motion within a certain region.

Anyone have a use case for face recognition? Or recommendations on how they set their front door camera?
 

Fastb

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I played with FD, and found it to be a gimmick. It's undependable, missing many faces. The face needs detail, it won't ID faces at a distance. By the time a persson is close enough for FD, the IVS tripwires already triggered an "event"
FD finds faces where none exisit, eg: reflections from car windows, shrubs moving in a breeze on a sunny day.
FD is fooled by hats, glasses, people looking sideways.

recommendations on how they set their front door camera?
Record 24/7. Use the Playback timeline to spot "events", then watch. You''ll have plenty of video before and after the event, not just of "the event".
Use IVS, either tripwire or intrusion zone. MD is not dependable. FD is worthless.

Fastb
 

Kinchyle

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Thanks, your thoughts are lining up with my assumptions. I've setup based on your recommendation and using IVS for the emailing/alerting. If it was possible to do FD to have snapshots of faces alongside IVS/recording I'd use it to ship off the face snapshots for analysis. Play with facial comparison to online criminal records. Currently it looks like it's all in on FD or IVS. Or use 24/7, MD, and FD. Your layout seems more reliable and capable.
 

bigredfish

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True face recognition and detection, comparing faces against a database, exists. Just not in sub $1000 consumer electronics, yet anyway. Think average annual paycheck and you'll be closer. ;)
 

Kinchyle

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The Dahua NVR looks to take face snapshots when the FD kicks off. I haven't figured out where it puts them though... I'm assuming I have to setup FTP and ship them to an FTP server on frequency.
If I did have "face shots" I'd have a server that would API "criminal" face databases and slurp them down. Then I'd use a cloud service like Azure facial recognition or there are some other face recognition analytics
Face API - Facial Recognition Software | Microsoft Azure

Then just run comparisons one at a time... This could all trigger on "new face". I played a little with the Dahua FD setting and with Face ROI on the 2mp Starlight at face level it had some pretty clear face pictures. Seems definitely feasible to get Dahua NVN (sub $1000) to be a fully functional facial recognition system. I'd think the high end system cost is due to analytics and processing not as much "take the face picture" and "get the face pictures".
These days you can use cloud services for the analytics and pretty cheap.
Curious what you think bigred. I'm on the fence though of playing any more with it if it's not very functional to pick up on someone. Especially for the "alert" part. Maybe I could set MD at a very tight region next to the door for the email alerting then use FD for the comparison lab... I do like IVS...
 

bigredfish

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I like IVS myself (Tripwire and Intrusion zones which I find even better in most cases), and use it in conjunction with tight defined MD areas. I'm moving toward using PIR sensors as well after installing a simple GuardLine sensor for my driveway and seeing how well and reliably it works.

I Dabbled with FD and just didnt find it reliable at all. I'm certainly not an expert, there are others here with much more knowledge on the subject and you're likely correct that its the processing side that is the trick. Feds and most large LE agencies use it extensively and growing fast. Again I suspect you're right in that it the backend analytics that makes the difference between toy and functional asset.

I do think the technology is just around the corner along with a bunch of other cool stuff to be affordable at the high end consumer level.
 

Fastb

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From my experiments;
- it doesn't take "Face Shots", per se. It takes a pic of the full image. There's no cropping.
- I couldn't find where the FD shots were stored.
- Instead, in Playback, I'd see the green box surround the "Face" it was trying to track.

My motivation was security, which is a little different than real-time (or even after-the-fact) FD. Specifically, I wanted to get a push notification when someone is approaching my house, whether the person was wearing a pulled-down-tight hoodie or not.
Later, when viewing the footage, I could clip an image of the trespasser. Crop it. Give it to LEO. I doubt they'd even perform a FD scan against a db.
So having the NVR do FD, instead of me, seemed like a "nice to have", as compared to me working the "must have" of dependable alerts, good image quality, camera lens, cam placement, and getting a quality "money shot" etc.

In a previous life working for a camera and NVR company, we put a lot of systems on metro buses. Having a cam focused on passengeers as they climbed the 3 steps into the bus allowed us to frame up facial shots. Many passengers look down as they climb the stairs. They then look up when approaching the fare box. The bus company was realistic - they weren't looking to iD everyone. Instead, scan a much smaller db of mug shots of bad actors who had been banned from riding the buses. The bad actors had "mug shots", excellent for the FD processing. The Metro Bus folks were highly motivated to make a safe environment, to protect bus drivers and passengers. And to avoid liability. If a "banned" person boarded, the FD hit would alert bus dispaatch, who would send a cop to excoort the bad guy off the bus (instead of having the bus driver performing that function) They had budget to do this, unlike most of us hobbyists.

So a motivated customer, funding, my employer was motivated, we had an engineering dept, etc. We contacted the company who manages the picture db for almost all the states driver's licenses. They had various FD software solutions they would have sold as SAAS. It seemed the stars were aligning.

It didn't pan out.
a) Not dependable enough. For FD, "false positives", and worse yet, "false negatives" would cause problems and
b) potential lawsuits.
c) The Metro folks also had PR concerns, eg: "spying", "invading privacy", or charges of city buses run by "big brother".

Item A (above) killed the project. That was 4 years ago. You mention cloud-based solutions - the cloud was in its infancy back then. Maybe today the cloud, and technology, has advanced. IMHO, the tech is inevitable, but as bigredfish put it, the tech is still around the corner.

Kinchyle, if you get something working, let us know! That's an interesting Azure site. Lots of clear pics, and well lit faces. You could submit some of your cam pics to check how your real-world pics perform....

Fastb

Another thread:
https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/face-detection.9461/ MD?
 
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Kinchyle

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I took another go at face detection. I read through a lot of Fastb's threads which are linked above also. Looks like I'm running into similar conclusions.
I was wanting to use MD for alert triggers, 24/7 for investigation and then FD for a proactive way to know of any criminal backgrounds in the area or that may have visited my house. Also just for a fun play project for image analytics...

Here is what I've run into.
The "face shots" are somewhere on the NVR but I can't find them. I did find "cropped" images when I went to smart play. Then switched to face detection and it shows historical "cropped faces". I had Face ROI selected and not sure if it helped but the face images where very clear.
I can't seem to get the snapshots sent to a FTP server and I haven't figured out how to API or access to the drive directly. I'm assuming I could probably get a direct connection to the drive and copy them?? Surely an API would allow. Either way I had other issues to not play with this...
My camera is mounted at little over 6 feet and at the right of the door frame when walking toward the door. It's a starlight 2mp camera and has a pretty bright LED on the left side of the door (
doesn't go in night time mode...). Even with it at face height and on the side of the door it looks like it needs direct on face shots. Placing it again I'd put it on the left side of the door being people walk toward the door bell and door handle where the door opens. Or try to add it in the door left of peep hole. If options to add into the first stairs like Fastb said on buses that would be creative. I did notice walking up the stairs I looked down. I thought about adding another camera and having it just for FD and leaving the other camera for IVS and investigation recording but I think I'll revisit later.

I did notice that FD needs about 5-10 feet and a direct angle. If I walked up to the door it wouldn't trigger but the moment I got within range and looked at the camera it kicked in. I didn't try anything with glasses, or hats but I'm sure it would throw it off.
This leads me to think you would need a dedicated camera in the center of the door or first steps. I thought about something creative with a noise/light to get them to look at the camera but I'd rather not have anyone tipped off they are being recorded to stop any evasive activity.

I was a bit disappointed because I thought "get pictures" was going to be the easy part. Even if body shots the Azure face analytics (which is free for 20 a minute...) can still do face comparison with a body shot and cropped face shot. It can even compare when the face is at different angles. It gives a confidence rating to allow using logic for "gather more pictures" and try or adding a rating for later manual analysis of pared down pictures.

Even if I got perfect face shots I still can't seem to figure out how to get to the pictures. They don't seem to be sending to my ftp (but still trying to resolve that for snapshots also). It sends to email alerting but the complete picture. They are sitting in "Smart Play" but not sure how to pull them out.
If someone knows let me know and I'll put "play with FD" back in my wish list.

TIP: After you get your own testing done if you want to test your camera triggers order some take out food and enjoy the show... :)
 

bigredfish

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Thanks for that info @Kinchyle , much deeper than I went.

I'm about to move my own front door Starlight cam as we are having a roof replaced and I have to take down the cameras for 2 days anyway, and I have pretty much decided to use one of these stickers, about 3" tall by 1" wide at eye level about 1 ft below the camera. I'm guessing I'll get 90%+ to follow instructions :D we'll see.

 

Kinchyle

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Please post back if you get some success :) My starlight is pretty blatant like a 3 eyed robot next to the door. I would put on left side of door walking to it if you can. Test walking to your door and see if you favor a certain side. Even if they walk to the left side and look to the right depending on your camera angle it might be an angled face. When I saw the first pizza guy I thought he was trying to turn his face away from the camera like he was hiding something but I realized it was just the fisheye angle from the right side of the door :) If you do have that arrow and you see people cover their face after, it could be a sign :)
I really want to try and install one in the door and run a network cable through the door with a way to bend into the door frame. Like have a hole that would allow it to push/pull into the door frame. Also protect the network cable. Put it right at eye level and close to the left edge of the door where people walk up. Even if not FD it seems like perfect spot. If you had a tiny camera I'd think next to the door handle pointing up would be good and would catch someone looking down at the door handle. Maybe make an old school "snap" sound and trigger an LED flash and it might send them running...

It would be funny to put an led light rope that went from the door handle area and wrapped around the camera. Put a motion trigger to turn on the light. It would be fun to watch the recordings just as a social experiment :)
 
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