Which Ip Cam for a tourism web site to show a landscape every 10 minutes

[micheldenis]

Hello,

I'd like to buy an inexpensive (less than 600 $) Ip Cam to hook on a town tower to pick a highres landscape picture every 10 minutes and have it sent to out town's web site for display (through Html/Joomla) to potential visitors.
So a few questions:
- We have been advised to look at Foscam FI9828 (it is highres, it rotates, etc...), connected through WiFi to the DSL router of our community center (and then to the internet). What do you think about that brand/model for such use ?
- Can we use a simple html/javascript piece running on the web site to pick one image per period of time and display it on the web ? Anyone has an example of such script ?

Many thanks in advance (from France),
-michel

 

[bp2008]

Hello.

I think we need to better understand your goal here. Are you wanting the camera to move between pictures, so it shows a different view every 10 minutes? I ask because PTZ (pan/tilt/zoom) capability adds a lot to the cost. I do not know if Foscam supports a PTZ schedule that would meet your goal, either, since I do not use Foscam cameras. It might require 3rd party software to pull that off. Maybe even custom software written just for you. Maybe @Don can tell you more about the Foscam's PTZ scheduling abilities.

About the idea of using WiFi, I must recommend against this. If your tower has any 2.4 GHz radios on it already, the camera would be a new source of interference. Even if there is no other 2.4 GHz activity on the tower, there is little reason to use WiFi for this. You already have to send power up to the camera, so you might as well send up a shielded cat6 cable as well for data. Or better yet, choose a camera that supports PoE (power over ethernet) and then you only have to run the cat6 cable. Again, I recommend shielded cat6 cable, since the shielding may reduce the chance of causing problems for any radio equipment on the tower.

---

So anyway what I recommend is that you look at Hikvision DS-2CD2032-I bullet cameras. They do not pan, tilt, or zoom, but they are higher resolution, they are physically very small, and you can probably find them for less than half the price of the Foscam you mentioned. The standard model has a 4mm lens which gives a fairly wide field of view, though you can choose one with a 6mm lens with a bit narrower view, or 12mm for a much narrower view. For landscape views you probably want the widest (4mm). I have used several of these for scenery/weather cams, and they are great.

Anyway at their price, you could afford to buy more than one, then have two or more great looking cameras for the web site.

If you get the Hikvision camera(s), they support PoE so you just have to run one network cable for each camera, and it will carry both the power and data. Ideally the cable should be shielded and outdoor rated (UV resistant) cat6, though cat5e would work fine also. You run the cable from the camera all the way to the inside of the building, where you plug it into a PoE switch ($40 USD and higher) or PoE injector (about $20 USD, but only powers one camera).

---

As for having the pictures appear on the town website, this can be complicated but there are a number of methods you can try.

1. Hikvision cameras have built-in FTP capability, but you can't specify the file name and it always puts a timestamp in the file name, so it never replaces old images. For this to be usable you would need some server-side code that finds the latest image and deletes old images.

2. Foscam also has FTP capability, though I do not know its limits. Again, Don can probably tell you more.

3. Don's software he linked should be able to do what you need efficiently, and for a small fee he will help you set it up.

 

[micheldenis]

Hello.

I think we need to better understand your goal here. Are you wanting the camera to move between pictures, so it shows a different view every 10 minutes? I ask because PTZ (pan/tilt/zoom) capability adds a lot to the cost. I do not know if Foscam supports a PTZ schedule that would meet your goal, either, since I do not use Foscam cameras. It might require 3rd party software to pull that off. Maybe even custom software written just for you. Maybe @Don can tell you more about the Foscam's PTZ scheduling abilities.

About the idea of using WiFi, I must recommend against this. If your tower has any 2.4 GHz radios on it already, the camera would be a new source of interference. Even if there is no other 2.4 GHz activity on the tower, there is little reason to use WiFi for this. You already have to send power up to the camera, so you might as well send up a shielded cat6 cable as well for data. Or better yet, choose a camera that supports PoE (power over ethernet) and then you only have to run the cat6 cable. Again, I recommend shielded cat6 cable, since the shielding may reduce the chance of causing problems for any radio equipment on the tower.

---

So anyway what I recommend is that you look at Hikvision DS-2CD2032-I bullet cameras. They do not pan, tilt, or zoom, but they are higher resolution, they are physically very small, and you can probably find them for less than half the price of the Foscam you mentioned. The standard model has a 4mm lens which gives a fairly wide field of view, though you can choose one with a 6mm lens with a bit narrower view, or 12mm for a much narrower view. For landscape views you probably want the widest (4mm). I have used several of these for scenery/weather cams, and they are great.

Anyway at their price, you could afford to buy more than one, then have two or more great looking cameras for the web site.

If you get the Hikvision camera(s), they support PoE so you just have to run one network cable for each camera, and it will carry both the power and data. Ideally the cable should be shielded and outdoor rated (UV resistant) cat6, though cat5e would work fine also. You run the cable from the camera all the way to the inside of the building, where you plug it into a PoE switch ($40 USD and higher) or PoE injector (about $20 USD, but only powers one camera).

---

As for having the pictures appear on the town website, this can be complicated but there are a number of methods you can try.

1. Hikvision cameras have built-in FTP capability, but you can't specify the file name and it always puts a timestamp in the file name, so it never replaces old images. For this to be usable you would need some server-side code that finds the latest image and deletes old images.

2. Foscam also has FTP capability, though I do not know its limits. Again, Don can probably tell you more.

3. Don's software he linked should be able to do what you need efficiently, and for a small fee he will help you set it up.

--------
Many thanks to both of you bp2008 and Don. I will have a look at details about the Hikvision DS-2CD2032-I bullet cameras.
Here is more information about the constraints:
Actually, the "tower" is the top of the church of the town, almost free from radio/magnetic interferences. In he church there is no way to have internet connections, so we are thinking of having a WiFi link between the Cam and the wall of the community center where internet access exists. We cannot put a cable from the top of the church down to an internet access in the local area.

Ideally we would like either to change the direction of the shooting, on-demand programmatically through the web site, or maybe define 3 or 4 directions and have the rotation go through each of the positions every 5 or 10 minutes.

I was thinking using a piece of Html or Javascript code to pick an image periodically using Http request and displaying it. Looks nicer than picking and displaying a Ftp file from disk, don't you think so ? But the Cam should be able to accept Http requests and send responses containing the new picture.

-michel

 

[bp2008]

Ok, that changes things. So the community center is right next to the church? Is the community center's WiFi antenna indoors? If the signal has to pass through even one exterior wall it will wreck the signal strength. Especially if there is metal in the wall. If you don't already have one, you may need an outdoor access point for the community center, to connect the camera to.

To make normal Hikvision cameras work, you would need a PoE switch, network cables, and 3rd party WiFi device to create the wireless link. That is far more trouble to set up, compared to the Foscam.

With the Foscam you should be able to just link it to the WiFi network (before you mount it up high!!) and then mount it and plug it in to power. Don's software should make it pretty easy to embed the pan tilt zoom controls on the web site, if that is what you are wanting. I don't know if you could easily set it up to automatically move every few minutes, but that won't really matter if you give control ability to the public.

 

[micheldenis]

Ok, that changes things. So the community center is right next to the church? Is the community center's WiFi antenna indoors? If the signal has to pass through even one exterior wall it will wreck the signal strength. Especially if there is metal in the wall. If you don't already have one, you may need an outdoor access point for the community center, to connect the camera to.

To make normal Hikvision cameras work, you would need a PoE switch, network cables, and 3rd party WiFi device to create the wireless link. That is far more trouble to set up, compared to the Foscam.

With the Foscam you should be able to just link it to the WiFi network (before you mount it up high!!) and then mount it and plug it in to power. Don's software should make it pretty easy to embed the pan tilt zoom controls on the web site, if that is what you are wanting. I don't know if you could easily set it up to automatically move every few minutes, but that won't really matter if you give control ability to the public.

The (top of) church and community center are 150 meters from each other, without obstacles. We can place a WiFi box on a window pane (simple glass) in the center so there are no wall obstacle, just a normal glass. Yes I would do like you recommend for connecting.
I suspect that if we give control ability to every internet visitor they might do PTZ at same time and the Cam become crazy PTZ'ing isn't it ? So I was thinking using a special account protected by login/passw for us and a simple display for the visitors, but then it would not be much mobile for the visitors.

How can I learn more about Don's software for the Foscam FI9828 ?
Thank you again,
-michel

 

[micheldenis]

Thank you Don !!
I will now carefully go through all the links and data you entered for me.

Many thanks again,
-michel

 

[LittleBrother]

If you absolutely, must have different views I think you should consider getting multiple, fixed cameras. PTZ definitely adds complexity to the entire thing and invites possible failure points as well, and a crisp image from a PTZ camera that is outdoor rated isn't particularly cheap. With $600 budget for a camera you could easily buy three quality, reliable exterior 3MP cameras that can withstand very low temperatures and, with no moving parts, failure rate will be low. I doubt you want to be up servicing the camera(s) often. In fact, you can get cameras that have a 90 degree field of view--and this is not so wide it looks like a fish bowl--and have them back to back with a constant 360 degree perimeter around the church steeple, if you really want that.

 

[LittleBrother]

I am beginning to wonder if these are urban myths about PTZ issues because I as stated. I Have never had any issues with PTZ IP Cameras nor do I know anyone that has. Yet I should if this were true, since I have been a moderator in the Foscam.us forum for over 3 years now.

I've no personal experience with PTZ. Only what I've read. I also have no idea what their actual failure rates are, though I stand by the comment that PTZ does add complexity and, as such, increases the failure rate, all things equal. Simply, a non-PTZ camera has two less motors. This may only be the difference between exceptional reliability and almost-exceptional. But hardware aside, there are software simplicities to multiple fixed cameras as well. Now, you have no fighting over control, and the software itself is simpler because it need not support that. You also end up with more views instead of just one that needs to be manipulated (either manually or via automation).

 

[bp2008]

The (top of) church and community center are 150 meters from each other, without obstacles. We can place a WiFi box on a window pane (simple glass) in the center so there are no wall obstacle, just a normal glass. Yes I would do like you recommend for connecting.
I suspect that if we give control ability to every internet visitor they might do PTZ at same time and the Cam become crazy PTZ'ing isn't it ? So I was thinking using a special account protected by login/passw for us and a simple display for the visitors, but then it would not be much mobile for the visitors.

How can I learn more about Don's software for the Foscam FI9828 ?
Thank you again,
-michel

150 meters might work ok with an ordinary access point behind a window. If not, you can always put a directional antenna at one or both ends. Such as http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BXBIXIQ

Or if desired the access point could be switched out for a Ubiquiti NanoStation Loco M2 mounted outdoors, with its output power reduced to minimum. The camera should have no trouble picking up a minimum power signal at that distance, and lower power reduces the 2.4ghz noise levels that everyone else must deal with.

---

To help compare the price between the Foscam PTZ approach and the multiple fixed-position camera approach, here are the prices I see (in $ USD) to buy it all in the USA. Assuming the community center side of things is all taken care of already.

Foscam PTZ

This setup is very simple. You just need the camera and it has WiFi built in.

1x Foscam FI9828W - $269.99

Site visitors get to see whatever the camera happens to be pointing at, or fight over control of it if you choose to let them.

Fixed cameras

For this there are a few things you need first, just to power the cameras and link them to the community center.

1x 802.3af PoE switch (such as TP-LINK TL-SF1008P) - $44
1x WiFi client radio (I recommend Ubiquiti NanoStation Loco M2) - $49
2x Network cables to connect the NanoStation radio. Cat6 or Cat5e. Price is almost inconsequential compared to the cost of shipping them. And yes you need two cables for it because the NanoStation comes with a proprietary power injector and cannot be powered by the "standard" 802.3af PoE switch.

Totaling the above, you have about $100 USD in networking and PoE gear, and this makes it possible to use up to 4 wired PoE cameras at the church "tower".

It is about $90 for each camera from aliexpress.com. Hikvision DS-2CD2032-I and DS-2CD2332-I are great choices. They plug directly into the PoE switch, which provides both power and data connectivity through the network cable. You also need to buy/acquire one network cable for each camera, as they are not included.

So, a 1 camera setup would cost close to $190 total.
2 cameras, $280.
3 cameras, $370.
4 cameras, $460.

This approach is obviously a lot more complex, since you have a lot more pieces to buy, configure, and install. It also requires two power outlets (the PoE switch and the Ubiquiti Radio's power injector). But in a lot of ways this approach is better because you have no moving parts and higher image resolution. You can display images from all the cameras on the same page, giving site visitors more than one view.

---

Either way, you will probably want to use Don's secure interface on the web server so you don't have to expose the camera addresses to the public. And if you anticipate a lot of traffic, his pages have mechanisms to help manage bandwidth usage.

 

[micheldenis]

That's great BP2008, you are all so helpful and I think I get the full picture of the situation, alternatives and comparative study.
At this point I think that I might go in the direction of simplicity (FI9828W) and using Don's secure interface.
But in the coming weeks I need now first to prepare a presentation for the mayor/chief of local community, then to get a budget voted during one of the next community meetings, etc .... those slow admin things.

Thanks again,
-michel

 

[bp2008]

Not 3 directional antennas. Just one, built into the Ubiquiti radio.

Comparing power consumption, the Foscam is "<10W". You'd see 3-6 watts each for the Hikvision cameras depending on if you disabled infrared, and about 4-5 watts for the Ubiquiti radio. Plus an insignificant additional load for the PoE switch operations.

One thing is for sure, PTZ cameras are fun to play with, at least until the novelty effect wears off.

And Don makes an excellent point about the bandwidth usage. If bandwidth is limited either at the community center or at the web server, that could eliminate the fixed cameras from consideration. You probably need a good 2 or 3 Mbps upload speed and no monthly data cap issues if you are going to run multiple fixed cameras with a lot of remote viewing.

 

[bp2008]

Ah, yes. An antenna like that should be able to negate the loss from the glass window at the end of a 150m run.

 

[micheldenis]

Hello Don !

Time passed since we discussed on this forum.
Now the project got approved (small local rural communities are slow to move on in France ...) and I have now the FI9826W in my living room for setting it up before it goes on the church's tower and get linked through a direct WIFI connection (made of a couple of EnGenius ENS500 300Mbps 5GHz Outdoor CPE) to the Major House's DSL box.

Here is what we need to have:
* all accesses should be on a public Joomla-based website (http://www.mairie-rochegude.fr), so I guess the secure version of the interface is what we need. HTTP is enough, no SSL needed I guess.
* both standard internet visitors and myself (the manager) should access the cam, but totally differently:
* access type 1 : internet visitors should get a HTML block on the front page of the web site displaying images from the cam, embedded in the HTML block. We'd like a refresh rate of about 10 minutes, but configurable Also direction and zoom should be configurable by me (not by the visitors). BUT no control at all nor anything else to be displayed and available to the standard internet visitor: (s)he just views what we decide and that gets refreshed e.g. every 10 minutes
* access type 2 : the manager (me) should have "full access" to all configuration capabilities of the cam (all PTZ etc...), a realtime refreshing rate for the images grabbed from the cam. I should be able to change the view (PTZ) for me but also for the internet visitors. This priviledged access type requires authorization with username/password credentials.

So we're happy to buy the bundle and get some support from you.

If you are interested to help us, please tell me how to move on Don !

-michel
ps: btw i am a website designer, so I can do stuff in HTML etc... but this is first time I get into cams. Also I still need to connect the cam in my living room etc..

 

[bp2008]

Honestly it sounds to me like you should just FTP an image every 10 minutes to the web server and embed the image, as this would be a fairly simple way to do it. Append the current system time to the URL as a parameter in order to defeat caching schemes that may otherwise prevent the image from refreshing for a visitor. The URL parameter could be appended client-side with javascript or server-side with php or whatever you have available. Presumably if you are a website designer you know how to do this and can understand why it is necessary.

Anyway with this scheme you can keep the address of the camera private.

Of course I'm sure Don can help with whatever you need during your one-on-one session.

 

[micheldenis]

Thank you bp2008, that's a possibility, though our Major House's IT people prefer here using HTTP or HTTPS instead of FTP protocols.
That's why I first will wait for Don's feedback and proposal.

Cheers,
-michel

 

[micheldenis]

Thank you Don- I will try it.
-michel

 

[micheldenis]

Hi Don,

I just tried with my Foscam 9828W, which is well accessible from the internet and the user credentials are ok, using simplest- unsecure method.
Below is the html code of the web page XXX. I just get a small square onscreen which refrshes from time to time.
Any idea ?
Thanks,
-michel

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" dir="ltr" xml:lang="en-gb" lang="en-gb"><head>
<title>webcam</title>
</head>
<body>

<img src="http://XXX:88/CGIProxy.fcgi?cmd=snapPicture2&usr=user&pwd=pass&t=" width='160' onload='setTimeout(function() {src = src.substring(0, (src.lastIndexOf("t=")+2))+(new Date()).getTime()}, 1000)' onerror='setTimeout(function() {src = src.substring(0, (src.lastIndexOf("t=")+2))+(new Date()).getTime()}, 5000)' alt='webcam' />


<script type="text/javascript">
this.blankwin = function(){
var dlists = new Array();
dlists[0] = 'ipcamtalk.com';

var hostname = window.location.hostname;
hostname = hostname.replace("www.","").toLowerCase();
var a = document.getElementsByTagName("a");
this.check = function(obj){
var href = obj.href.toLowerCase();
var dbopcount = 0;
if (href.indexOf("http://")!=-1)
{
for (jdi = 0; jdi <= dlists.length; jdi++)
{
if (href.indexOf(dlists[jdi]) == -1)
{
//alert("NO MATCH " + dlists[jdi] + " " + href);
dbopcount = dbopcount; //Do nothing
}
else
{
//alert("match " + dlists[jdi] + " " + href);
dbopcount++;
}
}
if (dbopcount > 0)
return true; //If this link URL was an internal URL
else //there were no matches to any internal domain, so leave it external
return false;
}
else
{
return false;
}
//return (href.indexOf("http://")!=-1 && href.indexOf(hostname)==-1) ? false : true;
};
this.set = function(obj){
obj.target = "_self";
};
for (var i=0;i<a.length;i++){
if(check(a)) set(a);
};
};

// script initiates on page load.

this.addEvent = function(obj,type,fn){
if(obj.attachEvent){
obj['e'+type+fn] = fn;
obj[type+fn] = function(){obj['e'+type+fn](window.event );}
obj.attachEvent('on'+type, obj[type+fn]);
} else {
obj.addEventListener(type,fn,false);
};
};
addEvent(window,"load",blankwin);
</script>

<script type="text/javascript">
this.blankwin = function(){
var dlists = new Array();
dlists[0] = 'ipcamtalk.com';

var hostname = window.location.hostname;
hostname = hostname.replace("www.","").toLowerCase();
var a = document.getElementsByTagName("a");
this.check = function(obj){
var href = obj.href.toLowerCase();
var dbopcount = 0;
if (href.indexOf("http://")!=-1)
{
for (jdi = 0; jdi <= dlists.length; jdi++)
{
if (href.indexOf(dlists[jdi]) == -1)
{
//alert("NO MATCH " + dlists[jdi] + " " + href);
dbopcount = dbopcount; //Do nothing
}
else
{
//alert("match " + dlists[jdi] + " " + href);
dbopcount++;
}
}
if (dbopcount > 0)
return true; //If this link URL was an internal URL
else //there were no matches to any internal domain, so leave it external
return false;
}
else
{
return false;
}
//return (href.indexOf("http://")!=-1 && href.indexOf(hostname)==-1) ? false : true;
};
this.set = function(obj){
obj.target = "_self";
};
for (var i=0;i<a.length;i++){
if(check(a)) set(a);
};
};

// script initiates on page load.

this.addEvent = function(obj,type,fn){
if(obj.attachEvent){
obj['e'+type+fn] = fn;
obj[type+fn] = function(){obj['e'+type+fn](window.event );}
obj.attachEvent('on'+type, obj[type+fn]);
} else {
obj.addEventListener(type,fn,false);
};
};
addEvent(window,"load",blankwin);
</script>

<script type="text/javascript">
this.blankwin = function(){
var dlists = new Array();
dlists[0] = 'ipcamtalk.com';

var hostname = window.location.hostname;
hostname = hostname.replace("www.","").toLowerCase();
var a = document.getElementsByTagName("a");
this.check = function(obj){
var href = obj.href.toLowerCase();
var dbopcount = 0;
if (href.indexOf("http://")!=-1)
{
for (jdi = 0; jdi <= dlists.length; jdi++)
{
if (href.indexOf(dlists[jdi]) == -1)
{
//alert("NO MATCH " + dlists[jdi] + " " + href);
dbopcount = dbopcount; //Do nothing
}
else
{
//alert("match " + dlists[jdi] + " " + href);
dbopcount++;
}
}
if (dbopcount > 0)
return true; //If this link URL was an internal URL
else //there were no matches to any internal domain, so leave it external
return false;
}
else
{
return false;
}
//return (href.indexOf("http://")!=-1 && href.indexOf(hostname)==-1) ? false : true;
};
this.set = function(obj){
obj.target = "_self";
};
for (var i=0;i<a.length;i++){
if(check(a)) set(a);
};
};

// script initiates on page load.

this.addEvent = function(obj,type,fn){
if(obj.attachEvent){
obj['e'+type+fn] = fn;
obj[type+fn] = function(){obj['e'+type+fn](window.event );}
obj.attachEvent('on'+type, obj[type+fn]);
} else {
obj.addEventListener(type,fn,false);
};
};
addEvent(window,"load",blankwin);
</script>
</body></html>

 

[micheldenis]

Hello Don,
Thank you for your response.
Yes sorry, my local area here in France was under heavy storms and we had to shut down networks, computers ... and webcams.

Now the cam is back on again.

Cheers,
-michel

 

[micheldenis]

In Secure mode I get "Access Denied" - how to learn what's wrong ?

 

[micheldenis]

Thank you Don. I will ask the ISP and let you know how it goes.

BTW: the unsecure version does not (to me) seem to work either as executing (by the web browser) http://www.devmooc.net/webcam.html produces the following result :

just a small image with nothing in it.

I don't see the reason as this time it is the port being opened by the browser and not the web site. Or maybe it is because it is being executed in the same Wifi network/LAN where the webcam is also located ?

Cheers,
-michel