Which is a better PTZ for streaming SD6CE445XA or SD5A445XA ?

drakejest

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My local suppliers have 2 possible PTZ camera candidates that meet our minimum requirement and i am seeking advices on which one is better. The primary purpose of this camera is for streaming, recording and surveillance is only secondary (there are other cameras for that purpose). That means image quality is the major deciding factor, which of these two camera gives the better image quality?

SD6CE445XA-HNR

SD5A445XA-HNR

They are similarly spec on all important specs but the SD6 for me looks to be better just because it can 20 000 kbps bit rate which i think means i can get better quality image.

What do you guys think?
 
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wittaj

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They are basically the same thing in different packages.

The SD6 is a higher series so overall quality of build should be better.

But both of them are not on the ideal MP/sensor ratio - these are 4MP on the 1/2.8" sensor, which works well for 2MP.

If you are really interested in image quality, then look to the 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor, the SD5A425XA-HNR

As far as the higher bitrate, there is a point of diminishing returns and more isn't always better. For a 4MP, the base that most start at is 8192 and then go up or down until we do not see any improvement.
 
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bigredfish

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^^^^^^^
THIS

Both of those are the WizSense series.

For the money I'd recommend stepping up to the WizMind 6 series
I have the big brother to that 45X, the SD6AL445XA-HNR-IR and I dont recommend it. I wont buy a 4MP camera with a 1/2.8 sensor again. It needs the 1/1.8

I also have this one - SD6AL433XA-HNR with the larger sensor and Laser IR (which I recommend for longer distances) and love it.

I'm able to keep it in color at night with streetlights and it tracks amazingly well.

They both do well during the day, nighttime is where the difference is in most cameras.
More video samples here: https://www.youtube.com/user/bigredfish59/videos


View attachment HOA Entr_ch1_20221016042521_20221016042614.mp4
 
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drakejest

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They are basically the same thing in different packages.

The SD6 is a higher series so overall quality of build should be better.

But both of them are not on the ideal MP/sensor ratio - these are 4MP on the 1/2.8" sensor, which works well for 2MP.

If you are really interested in image quality, then look to the 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor, the SD5A425XA-HNR

As far as the higher bitrate, there is a point of diminishing returns and more isn't always better. For a 4MP, the base that most start at is 8192 and then go up or down until we do not see any improvement.

Can you tell me more about this MP/sensor ratio, what do they do on image quality and what are the apropriate sensor ratio for the common Megapixels 2MP, 4MP, 8MP, and even the 12MP for that matter.


^^^^^^^
THIS

Both of those are the WizSense series.

For the money I'd recommend stepping up to the WizMind 6 series
I have the big brother to that 45X, the SD6AL445XA-HNR-IR and I dont recommend it. I wont buy a 4MP camera with a 1/2.8 sensor again. It needs the 1/1.8

I also have this one - SD6AL433XA-HNR with the larger sensor and Laser IR (which I recommend for longer distances) and love it.

I'm able to keep it in color at night with streetlights and it tracks amazingly well.

They both do well during the day, nighttime is where the difference is in most cameras.
More video samples here: https://www.youtube.com/user/bigredfish59/videos
The image quality looks good are those from the 1/1.8 sensor?
 
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wittaj

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See this great thread.

Almost any combination can work in the day, but at night with low light, you need a camera on the appropriate MP/sensor ratio or it will suffer as you try to push light thru more MP.

 

EMPIRETECANDY

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45X zoom sure better than 25x at daytime and night light is good places. If you just need a 25x zoom, the SD5A425XA-HNR would be better. 25X and 45x has huge difference on zoom capacity.

But the 45x size is a little bigger.
 

drakejest

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45X zoom sure better than 25x at daytime and night light is good places. If you just need a 25x zoom, the SD5A425XA-HNR would be better. 25X and 45x has huge difference on zoom capacity.

But the 45x size is a little bigger.
it has to be atleast 40x zoom, we have a 30x zoom ptz and its not enough so yeah...
 

wittaj

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it has to be atleast 40x zoom, we have a 30x zoom ptz and its not enough so yeah...
Keep in mind X zoom is relative based on the focal length it first started with, so make sure you know what focal length the camera you currently have starts at.

40 times zoom starting with a focal length of 2.8mm (so at 40x it would be focal length of 112mm) isn't going to be as powerful as a 25x zoom that starts 7.8mm (for a focal length of 195mm).

Look at the mm of the focal length as that is the true measure.
 

drakejest

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Keep in mind X zoom is relative based on the focal length it first started with, so make sure you know what focal length the camera you currently have starts at.

40 times zoom starting with a focal length of 2.8mm (so at 40x it would be focal length of 112mm) isn't going to be as powerful as a 25x zoom that starts 7.8mm (for a focal length of 195mm).

Look at the mm of the focal length as that is the true measure.
That is something i do not know, i do not have the specs of the old camera on hand, but i will keep this in mind.

So to know which has better "zoom" its just focal length * optical zoom rating. The highe the numberr the bette the zoom correct?
 

wittaj

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Yes, the higher the focal length, the better the zoom.
 

drakejest

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Yes, the higher the focal length, the better the zoom.
any draw backs for choosing a high focal length camera? because why are there high optical zoom factor(such as 45x) when you can just use a higher focal length?
 

wittaj

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Unless you spend BIG bucks, a fixed length camera is maxing out around 64mm and most PTZs will go to 175mm or more.

And even then, in the fixed lens variety, 64mm is limited to 2MP, 43mm is limited to 4MP, and 6mm is limited to 8MP for cameras on the proper MP/sensor ratio.
 

drakejest

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Unless you spend BIG bucks, a fixed length camera is maxing out around 64mm and most PTZs will go to 175mm or more.

And even then, in the fixed lens variety, 64mm is limited to 2MP, 43mm is limited to 4MP, and 6mm is limited to 8MP for cameras on the proper MP/sensor ratio.
how do i know that the camera has the correct MP to sensor ratio , is there a chart that i can look up?
 

wittaj

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1666051656286.png

Basically:

1/2.8" sensor = 2MP or smaller
1/1.8" sensor = 4MP or smaller
1/1.2" sensor = 8MP or smaller


 

drakejest

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View attachment 142976

Basically:

1/2.8" sensor = 2MP or smaller
1/1.8" sensor = 4MP or smaller
1/1.2" sensor = 8MP or smaller


i notice this is for night time, how about daytime? I assume that i can get away with a higher value?

Also what would really happen if i choose a ratio that is on the red side, how does that affect the image?
 

wittaj

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Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation - which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around. The cameras will certainly perform better in the day.

This is even more critical for a PTZ that could see a wide lighting range up close to far away zoom.

If you get a camera that is in the red zone, it will struggle at night. These sensors are small and we need to get as much light to them as possible.

An analogy to try to understand why cameras need so much more light - let's look at an 8MP camera and this 8MP needs at least four times the amount of light as a 2MP for the same sensor. The sensor size is the same in each camera, but when you spread the "screen" of 8MP worth of pixel holes across the same sensor, it now has double the holes, but also double the "screen material" than the 2MP.

Kind of hard to explain, but lets try to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it (that represents 2MP) and looking out through the screen is a little darker outside because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has four times the amount of holes (now it represents 8MP) and it will be darker looking through it because (while the resolution would be better) there is a lot more screen material.

So if your house is like most where the top pane is glass with no screen and the bottom half is window with the screen and you see something outside during the daytime - do you sit down to look out through the screen or do you stand up to look a the object through the window with no screen?

And that is accentuated even more at night time. Look out your window with and without the screen and it will be darker looking through the screen than without it. If you are looking out your window to see the stars or the moon, do you look out the part of the window with the screen, or the upper portion without the screen material?

Now obviously as it relates to a camera, you need to balance the amount of pixel holes with the screen material - too few holes (and thus less screen material) and the resolution suffers, and too many holes (and thus more screen material) and the more light that is needed.

It is why many of us here say do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). At nighttime is when most of us want the camera to perform. Almost any camera can work with enough daylight.

2MP on 1/2.8" or bigger sensor
4MP on 1/1.8" or bigger sensor
8MP on 1/1.2" or bigger sensor

If it doesn't meet that, then don't buy.

In some instances that can make the difference between getting night capture in color versus B/W. A 4MP on a 1/1.8" sensor has a much better chance at going into color than a 4MP on a smaller 1/2.8" sensor.
 

wittaj

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Here is an example we get from time to time where someone complains about the 8MP IPC-HDW3849H-AS-PV camera they just bought and the quality sucks even during the day.

This is active deterrence camera that is an 8MP on a 1/2.8" sensor, so it is on a horrible MP/sensor ratio. You cannot have enough light at night for it to perform well.

Even worse, this 8MP is on the same sensor and CPU as a 2MP non TIOC camera so they had to limit bitrate and other parameters on the 3849 to try to make it functional, and the results are problems even during the day.

In my opinion the 3849 should not be sold with that current MP/sensor and CPU combination, but alas everybody wants 4k and chases MP over sensor and this camera is the epitome of that thinking.

Lot's of threads here where people showed how bad the 3849 camera is in performing even during the day:

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drakejest

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Here is an example we get from time to time where someone complains about the 8MP IPC-HDW3849H-AS-PV camera they just bought and the quality sucks even during the day.

This is active deterrence camera that is an 8MP on a 1/2.8" sensor, so it is on a horrible MP/sensor ratio. You cannot have enough light at night for it to perform well.

Even worse, this 8MP is on the same sensor and CPU as a 2MP non TIOC camera so they had to limit bitrate and other parameters on the 3849 to try to make it functional, and the results are problems even during the day.

In my opinion the 3849 should not be sold with that current MP/sensor and CPU combination, but alas everybody wants 4k and chases MP over sensor and this camera is the epitome of that thinking.

Lot's of threads here where people showed how bad the 3849 camera is in performing even during the day:
For this use case though is streaming, and do not really care about night performance for all we care it can even be pure black output on the night. The subject of the camera is typically well lit. Which would give a clearer image a 4MP 1/1.8 sensor (good ratio) or a 8MP 1/2.8 (bad ratio)
 

wittaj

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It is is just for streaming and you don't care about night quality and recognizing whatever streaming platform you use will probably compress it further, go with the cheapest one LOL.

In bright daylight, either one will be fine. Some will argue with enough light the 8MP would have the edge, but certainly at night it would be reversed.
 
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