Which is a better PTZ for streaming SD6CE445XA or SD5A445XA ?

[drakejest]

It is is just for streaming and you don't care about night quality and recognizing whatever streaming platform you use will probably compress it further, go with the cheapest one LOL.

In bright daylight, either one will be fine. Some will argue with enough light the 8MP would have the edge, but certainly at night it would be reversed.

while we or on the topic of bad cameras. The purpose of the camera i will mention now is for surveillance.

IPC-HFW2831S-S-S2

IPC-HFW2831S-S-S2

www.dahuasecurity.com

My local supplier said it is their best camera but given what you have just said and how this model is very very similarly speced IPC-HDW3849H-AS-PV. Can i say that my local supplier is talking crap? I would be better off 4MP 1/1.8 camera right?


In day time can you say a 4MP 1/1.8 sensor (good ratio) still beat a 8MP 1/2.8 (bad ratio) ?

 

[wittaj]

OK. Streaming camera selected!

Surveillance - yeah your local supplier is selling you a bag of goods. You would be better off with the 5442 series 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor.

Here is a real world example. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 5MP on the 1/2.7" sensor go into color, so the 8MP would be worse:





And the 5442 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor:



Which do you think is the better image?

 

[drakejest]

OK. Streaming camera selected!

Surveillance - yeah your local supplier is selling you a bag of goods. You would be better off with the 5442 series 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor.

Here is a real world example. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 5MP on the 1/2.7" sensor go into color, so the 8MP would be worse:

View attachment 142989



And the 5442 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor:

View attachment 142990

Which do you think is the better image?

oh thats so bad ! i thought the deer was on a ground with rocks, turns out to be grass.

I'm curious though if you dial down the resolution of the 8MP into 4MP (2k resolution instead of 4k) would it be like a real 4MP camera?

 

[wittaj]

Downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 8 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 8MP to 2MP. The sensor still needs 4 times the light going from 8MP to 2MP, so the native 2MP camera will result in a better image at night.

The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the higher MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 2MP.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras with ones like mine based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera

 

[drakejest]

Downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 8 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 8MP to 2MP. The sensor still needs 4 times the light going from 8MP to 2MP, so the native 2MP camera will result in a better image at night.

The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the higher MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 2MP.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras with ones like mine based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera

Okay if i throw in a full color camera 8MP 1/2.8 , its still a bad ratio. From what i read how full color works is they were designed for ultra low light, with special sensor designed to absorb more light. Here is the full color camera model that my local supplier gave me

IPC-HFW3849T1-AS-PV

IPC-HFW3849T1-AS-PV

www.dahuasecurity.com

So i chatted my supplier to give me what 4MP models they have. They give me this, a 4MP 1/3 which is much worse than the 8MP they just gave me.

IPC-HFW2431S-S-S2

IPC-HFW2431S-S-S2

www.dahuasecurity.com

 

[wittaj]

Wow you need a different supplier LOL.

That first one, the 3849 is the camera I linked above with all the threads started on this forum with poor quality DURING THE DAY!

The second camera is as budget camera as you can get LOL. You would be better off buying the Amcrest LOL.

TIme to get a different supplier LOL. @EMPIRETECANDY is a trusted vendor here that sells international version Dahua OEM cameras. He is in Hong Kong.

Andy's cameras are Dahua and Hikvision OEM equipment sold under the names Loryta and Empiretech.

Some of my cameras I have bought from Andy from his Amazon and AliExpress store come as Dahua cams in Dahua boxes with Dahua logos, and some are not logo'd - I think it depends on how many cameras Andy buys if he gets them with the Dahua Logo or not. But regardless, they are Dahua units. If you get a unit that has Dahua on it, then the camera GUI will say Dahua; otherwise it will simply say IP Camera but looks identical except without the logo. Some of his cameras may come with EmpireTech stamped on them as well.

As long you you buy from the vendor EmpireTech or Loryta on Amazon (or AliExpress), they are Andy cams and Dahua or Hikvision OEM.

His cameras and NVRs are international models and many of them are not available through Dahua and Hikvision USA authorized dealers, but his cameras and NVRs are usually better than what you can find from a USA authorized dealer.

You can update the firmware on Andy's cameras and NVRs from the Dahua and Hikvision website, thus proving they are real Dahua and Hikvision. But you will find that the firmware we get from him is actually better and more recent than what is on the Dahua website because many members here provide feedback to Andy and then Dahua makes modifications to the firmware and sends back to him and then he sends out to his customers. These have been great improvements that Dahua doesn't even update their firmware and add to their website. So many of us are running a newer firmware than those that purchase Dahua cameras through professional installers. Smart IR on the 5442 series is one such improvement. Autotracking on the 49225 and 49425 PTZ is another. We got the next version of AI SMD 3.0 prior to anyone else as well.

Look at the threads here where members are actually testing firmware and improving it for Dahua - find a Dahua dealer with that type of relationship that Andy has with Dahua - I don't think you will find it. Look at the Dahua 4k camera on the 1/1.2" sensor as an example - Dahua provides cameras to Andy to sell before Dahua even made it available and look at all the improvements being made to the firmware from input from customers right here on this site. And the kicker is, we are not Dahua's target market - it is the professional installers...

 

[drakejest]

Wow you need a different supplier LOL.

That first one, the 3849 is the camera I linked above with all the threads started on this forum with poor quality DURING THE DAY!

The second camera is as budget camera as you can get LOL. You would be better off buying the Amcrest LOL.

TIme to get a different supplier LOL. @EMPIRETECANDY is a trusted vendor here that sells international version Dahua OEM cameras. He is in Hong Kong.

Andy's cameras are Dahua and Hikvision OEM equipment sold under the names Loryta and Empiretech.

Some of my cameras I have bought from Andy from his Amazon and AliExpress store come as Dahua cams in Dahua boxes with Dahua logos, and some are not logo'd - I think it depends on how many cameras Andy buys if he gets them with the Dahua Logo or not. But regardless, they are Dahua units. If you get a unit that has Dahua on it, then the camera GUI will say Dahua; otherwise it will simply say IP Camera but looks identical except without the logo. Some of his cameras may come with EmpireTech stamped on them as well.

As long you you buy from the vendor EmpireTech or Loryta on Amazon (or AliExpress), they are Andy cams and Dahua or Hikvision OEM.

His cameras and NVRs are international models and many of them are not available through Dahua and Hikvision USA authorized dealers, but his cameras and NVRs are usually better than what you can find from a USA authorized dealer.

You can update the firmware on Andy's cameras and NVRs from the Dahua and Hikvision website, thus proving they are real Dahua and Hikvision. But you will find that the firmware we get from him is actually better and more recent than what is on the Dahua website because many members here provide feedback to Andy and then Dahua makes modifications to the firmware and sends back to him and then he sends out to his customers. These have been great improvements that Dahua doesn't even update their firmware and add to their website. So many of us are running a newer firmware than those that purchase Dahua cameras through professional installers. Smart IR on the 5442 series is one such improvement. Autotracking on the 49225 and 49425 PTZ is another. We got the next version of AI SMD 3.0 prior to anyone else as well.

Look at the threads here where members are actually testing firmware and improving it for Dahua - find a Dahua dealer with that type of relationship that Andy has with Dahua - I don't think you will find it. Look at the Dahua 4k camera on the 1/1.2" sensor as an example - Dahua provides cameras to Andy to sell before Dahua even made it available and look at all the improvements being made to the firmware from input from customers right here on this site. And the kicker is, we are not Dahua's target market - it is the professional installers...

ohhhhh damn, i did not notice the full color is the same one you linked a while ago ... oh definitely, this local supplier has to go. That makes a lot of sense now, their cameras cost less than 65$ which i would think is a bit cheap for a proper 8MP camera.

The only thing why i did not chose andys camera directly is because of the price, but i guess thats what i have to pay if we want something good.

 

[wittaj]

Yeah you get what you pay for. 65 for a good 8MP isn't happening. That would be the consumer version Amcrest lol.

 

[drakejest]

Yeah you get what you pay for. 65 for a good 8MP isn't happening. That would be the consumer version Amcrest lol.

Thank you very much this thread has been very informative for me.

So the one thing i learned is that sensor size is king in surveillance purposes.

One last thing, does NVR matter? aside from those smart features, does it really matter? are there good or bad NVRs ?

 

[wittaj]

Not all NVRs are created equal. The cheap ones limit bandwidth to like 80Mbps, which gets eat up quick with 4K cameras and trying to watch, etc.

So the key is to look for bandwidth capabilities. The good ones will be around 320Mbps in and 320Mbps out.

The next key is to ensure it has the decoding capabilities for the cameras you have. Nothing worse than having five 8MP cameras, but it only has the ability to decode one and then downrezes the other 4.

And it is best to match brands with the camera. So if you buy Dahua OEM cameras then buy a Dahua OEM NVR.

 

[drakejest]

Not all NVRs are created equal. The cheap ones limit bandwidth to like 80Mbps, which gets eat up quick with 4K cameras and trying to watch, etc.

So the key is to look for bandwidth capabilities. The good ones will be around 320Mbps in and 320Mbps out.

The next key is to ensure it has the decoding capabilities for the cameras you have. Nothing worse than having five 8MP cameras, but it only has the ability to decode one and then downrezes the other 4.

And it is best to match brands with the camera. So if you buy Dahua OEM cameras then buy a Dahua OEM NVR.

Well this does not really apply now since i changed my camera selection because of what you have taught me, but assuming i did get 8MP 4k cameras and lets say 32 of those, was NVR the correct choice?

NVR5208/5216/5232-4KS2

NVR5208/5216/5232-4KS2

www.dahuasecurity.com

 

[wittaj]

Probably not LOL. One of the many reasons many of us use Blue Iris.

See this post where someone has 20 cameras:

H.264 vs H264H vs H.265 encoding

Hey guys, I was told earlier that BI prefers H.264H encoding, and set that on my cams. A friend was telling me he thought H.265 is faster and less CPU. I am running an i7-8700 (HP EliteDesk 800 G4 with the Intel built in card) plus an Nvidia 1650. I have BI set to use NVidia NVDEC, and i see...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[bigredfish]

You’ll probably be able to run them, but at reduced bitrate and fps. I would think the same on BI?

A friend is running 22 4MP Dahua cams on a 5232 NVR. Most 8192 bitrate and 30FPS. But I think 32 at 4K may be pushing it

I would probably think about splitting them onto 2 NVRs

 

[drakejest]

Probably not LOL. One of the many reasons many of us use Blue Iris.

See this post where someone has 20 cameras:

H.264 vs H264H vs H.265 encoding

Hey guys, I was told earlier that BI prefers H.264H encoding, and set that on my cams. A friend was telling me he thought H.265 is faster and less CPU. I am running an i7-8700 (HP EliteDesk 800 G4 with the Intel built in card) plus an Nvidia 1650. I have BI set to use NVidia NVDEC, and i see...

ipcamtalk.com

You’ll probably be able to run them, but at reduced bitrate and fps. I would think the same on BI?

A friend is running 22 4MP Dahua cams on a 5232 NVR. Most 8192 bitrate and 30FPS. But I think 32 at 4K may be pushing it

dahua's cameras has a max bitrate of 8000 kbps, assuming 9000kbps * 32 = 288 000 kpbs which is still lower than its maximum. So am i missing something here ?

also if lets say i have only 16 4k cameras, would there be any sense to buy a 32 channel one just for the extra computing power? The spec sheet does say anything about the 32 channel being better at something than the 16 one exempt for the camera limitation

 

[bigredfish]

I’m just thinking load balancing the incoming bandwidth. Oh and you’re gonna want more HD space probably. Maybe look at the 5400 or 5800 series

or step up to this

WizMind Series - Dahua International

WizMind Series

www.dahuasecurity.com

 

[wittaj]

It will also be pulling substreams, plus you need to look at how many channels it can decode at that MP.

Then if you are using AI of the NVR that impacts this limit as well, as do the number of connections and streaming devices looking at it.

Plus you wouldn't want it to run at capacity and need some headroom.

 

[bigredfish]

Yep
32 substream add up

NVR Bandwidth And Storage Calculator Video Surveillance | Arxys

Advanced Video Bandwidth and Storage Calculator, intelligently calculates video surveillance parameters NVR and VMS, h.264 & h.265

www.arxys.com