Which new Intel NUC?

[Corvus85]

Hey all,

I'm new here, so please excuse my ignorance.

I've been playing around with BI on an old 4th gen Intel PC just to get used to the UI, and I think I'm ready for build a standalone CCTV system for my dad to replace his aging and deteriorating Swann DVR system.

Here's what it will need to run:

• 8x Annke 4K cameras recording direct to disk on triggered events at 15fps in H265 resolution with audio, and continuous recording of substreams (640x480).
• Deepstack AI for person/object detection and sending notifications to his phone when people are detected at certain hours/when he's not home.
• HomeAssistant running in Docker for Windows to trigger automations on various IoT devices based on person/object detection.

I've settled on getting him a NUC, as he's got his heart set on that small form factor, low noise and low power consumption. Unfortunately this is not negotiable for him.

My uncertainty lies with whether or not I should get an i5 or an i7.
The processor series I'm looking at is the 'G7' range with included Intel Iris graphics.

As for storage, he's either going to save it all on an already-existing NAS, or I'll just add an additional 1Tb SSD to the NUC on top of the already existing M.2 SSD for the OS. He doesn't need to keep recordings for that long.

He will mostly be using the web or mobile app to view live and recorded footage.
I will naturally be setting it up so that only single cameras will be viewed live in 4K, and substreams will be used for the multicam live views.
However, if I understand the 'choosing hardware' Wiki correctly, I'd need to consider building the system to handle the highest possible load - meaning the slim event that all 8 cameras simultaneously trigger an event and start recording.

If this is the case, then aren't I looking at a total throughput of 996 MP/s? (8 cameras * 8.3 MP * 15 fps)
Is this correct? Or am I thinking of this wrong?

If correct, would the latest gen (11) i7 NUC still be underpowered since it's only 4 cores?

Does Deepstack take advantage of Tensor core CPUs? If so, I have a USB Google Coral I could give him.

Please help me iron this out.

 

[bp2008]

Sub streams should make it plenty efficient enough. My concern would be the deepstack AI processing. I'm not sure what requirements that has, especially without a proper GPU to go with it.

 

[sebastiantombs]

To me a NUC for BI is like entering the 24 Hours at LeMans in a Smart Car. Yeah' it'll go 24 hours, but....

In this case you lose out on being able to handle ever increasing loads, heat considerations, and you can't add peripherals like additional internal drives or a graphics card to handle AI like DeepStack. You may as well use an NVR rather than BI, IMHO.

 

[Corvus85]

To me a NUC for BI is like entering the 24 Hours at LeMans in a Smart Car. Yeah' it'll go 24 hours, but....

In this case you lose out on being able to handle ever increasing loads, heat considerations, and you can't add peripherals like additional internal drives or a graphics card to handle AI like DeepStack. You may as well use an NVR rather than BI, IMHO.

What do you mean by 'ever increasing loads'? storage isn't an issue because he's saving recordings to his NAS. He doesn't want any more than 8 cameras, and the NUC will be placed in a well-ventilated area.

Does Deepstack use tensor cores? If so, I have a USB Google Coral lying around that I'll be able to give him.

 

[looney2ns]

If you want reliable operation, follow this.
Choosing Hardware for Blue Iris | IP Cam Talk

 

[sebastiantombs]

What I mean by ever increasing loads is that almost invariably the number of cameras increases past the original plan, when the holes in that plan become obvious, putting more demand on the CPU. DeepStack requires a CUDA capable card, incidentally. Storing to a NAS, especially if recording 24/7, won't work reliably simply because a NAS is not designed to handle multiple streams of continuous, never ending, writes. The same is true of external USB drives.

 

[Corvus85]

What I mean by ever increasing loads is that almost invariably the number of cameras increases past the original plan, when the holes in that plan become obvious, putting more demand on the CPU. DeepStack requires a CUDA capable card, incidentally. Storing to a NAS, especially if recording 24/7, won't work reliably simply because a NAS is not designed to handle multiple streams of continuous, never ending, writes. The same is true of external USB drives.

There are two versions of deepstack - a CPU version and a GPU version. I should know because the test system I had it installed on had no GPU and it ran it flawlessly. I never saw CPU usage go above ~12% (albeit with one camera attached - it is an old system after all). So what do you mean that it requires a CUDA capable card when I had no such card installed and it worked fine? Why else would they offer a CPU version?

Using DeepStack with Windows 10 (CPU and GPU) | DeepStack v1.2.1 documentation

He's been happy with 8 cameras for over 10 years now so I don't see him wanting to add additional cameras for at least another 10. In fact even if you gave him additional cameras, he wouldn't even be able to think of where he'd want to put them. He simply doesn't need any more.

The NUC has a slot for an SSD, additional to an M.2 drive. Instead of saving to a NAS, I can simply get a 1TB SSD and be done with it. Storage is not what I'm worried about at this stage because he doesn't need to store many days of recordings. I'm mainly concerned if the processor can drive what I need it to drive.

i5 or i7?

 

[Corvus85]

If you want reliable operation, follow this.
Choosing Hardware for Blue Iris | IP Cam Talk

I said I already looked at this in my original post. Did you read the post?

 

[tigerwillow1]

I said I already looked at this in my original post. Did you read the post?

I had to read through the OP 3 times before I found the reference, so I vote for giving looney a pass on this one.

 

[Flintstone61]

Everything is negotiable.

 

[Corvus85]

Everything is negotiable.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. What are you recommending?

 

[Flintstone61]

Getting at least a small form factor computer.

 

[Corvus85]

Getting at least a small form factor computer.

Will the 11th gen i7 NUC be sufficient or not?
Why can't anyone give me a straight answer on this?

I mean, there are reports in this forum of people running 50 cameras on a 4th gen i7... Why are you trying to push me to a SFF PC?

 

[Flintstone61]

Heat dissipation, CPU throttling. My 3rd generation i7 3770 pumped out 80-85C running 12 cams @ 3.0 GHZ/65 Watts..... mostly 2MP. and the box was quite warm. and the power supply fan was throwing a fair amount of heat too. ( dell Optiplex 7010 SFF). When I got a 8th Gen Cpu with DDR 4 ( i5-8500 HP Elitedesk SFF) things ran a bit cooler. if the Mobile processors running in the NUC are designed for "thermal" conditions. It means they regulate the heat by controlling how fast it runs....and when it hits that temp it begins to throttle the CPU.
Certianly you can try it. It would be interesting if you could report your findings to help the forum get smarter about NUC's.
I would like to get a power efficient computer to run some IP cams, for home, But after my experience at work running BI, and playing back video, I learned that having enough overhead to record 8 camera's, while also playing back a camera's recording can tax the system into freeze up's, or stammering, hesitations... After enough days at work wasting time waiting for the machine to bring up a recorded video and then playing it back herky jerky, I realized my hardware would record, and would playback, but didn't do well, doing both simultaneously.

 

[Mike A.]

The processor will be OK, especially set up to use substreams. The rest of the config isn't all that ideal as a BI server generally. That's why people are suggesting something other than the NUC. Everyone wants the tiny box that does everything but the form factor has limitations. Maybe it's OK for your purposes. Also the Annke 4K cams won't be great at night if that's a consideration.

 

[samplenhold]

Will the 11th gen i7 NUC be sufficient or not?
Why can't anyone give me a straight answer on this?

Most probably because most here have no experience with NUCs. You have done the calculations and have a guess as to the usability of the i5 or i7. Is there a significant difference in price between the two? If not, just get the i7. The only real way to know is to actually buy it and run it the way you have planned. It sounds like you have given this quite a lot of thought.

However, a 1TB drive is small. The 10TB drive is really not that costly. As others have stated, writing externally or moving video files to an external drive or NAS is taxing on the CPU and really not necessary if you have a large enough HD installed. But you can always upgrade in the future if the system is sluggish as designed.

 

[Flintstone61]

Now thats some helpful input. thx Samplenhold

 

[Corvus85]

The only real way to know is to actually buy it and run it the way you have planned. It sounds like you have given this quite a lot of thought.

Well I'm mainly confused by how to actually calculate how powerful I need the system to be. According to the hardware wiki, it seems to suggest that I need to design the system according to its maximum theoretical load. In my case, would that mean 8x 4K cameras detecting events at the same time and simultaneously recording?

If so, would that also mean that I have to design the system around a throughput of 996 MP/s?

And if so, would that also mean that I need at least a 6 core processor as per the hardware wiki? Or is an 11th gen 4-core i7 equivalent to a 6-core 10th gen?

But then I see reports that people are running 50+ cameras on a 4th gen i7 and that makes me think that I'm not interpreting the wiki correctly - there's no way they would've factored the theoretical maximum load of 50 cameras in that setup.

 

[Flintstone61]

I think your cpu has hyperthreading, and will be a strong performer. If your paying for a NAS to suck electricity, is it just for BI? If so, you'd save electricity just running a SFF PC with a 1-2 Big surveillance drives.
streamline. get the camera data recorded with the fewest step or moving parts. less shit to fail, and less CPU stress. recording a piece of data, then rewriting that piece of data, to another location is taxing.

 

[samplenhold]

Well I'm mainly confused by how to actually calculate how powerful I need the system. According to the hardware wiki, it seems to suggest that I need to design the system according to its maximum theoretical load. In my case, would that mean 8x 4K cameras detecting events at the same time and simultaneously recording?

If so, would that also mean that I have to design the system around a throughput of 996 MP/s?

And if so, would that also mean that I need at least a 6 core processor as per the hardware wiki? Or is an 11th gen 4-core i7 equivalent to a 6-core 10th gen?

Those are all good questions. Unfortunately, this part of the WIKI is old and really needs revision. It was written before sub-streams were implemented in BI and before Deepstack was written in BI. It is also really a guide per se. You have to be realistic in your planning. Like you said, what are the chances of all 8 cams going full throttle at the same time? One trouble is having all 4K cams...lots of data. I currently have 23 cams (mix of 2mp and 4mp), some running sub-streams and others not. Most at 15fps but three at 25fps. Current is 575MP/s with CPU at 15% while running UI3 on an i7-8700. But I do not do Deepstack.