Which new Intel NUC?

[wittaj]

Can you post a night video of a person in motion showing us night performance that has already exceeded your expectations?

The C800 is not on an ideal MP/sensor size combo. Most here will recommend the 4MP 5442 series cameras on the 1/1.8" sensor or the new 4K on the 1/1.2" sensor.

 

[Corvus85]

Can you post a night video of a person in motion showing us night performance that has already exceeded your expectations?

The C800 is not on an ideal MP/sensor size combo. Most here will recommend the 4MP 5442 series cameras on the 1/1.8" sensor or the new 4K on the 1/1.2" sensor.

Which brand/model?

 

[wittaj]

Dahua 5442 series or the new 4k by Dahua PC-Color4K-X / DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED

 

[Corvus85]

Dahua 5442 series or the new 4k by Dahua PC-Color4K-X / DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED

I'm sure it's much more superior, however it's also 3x the price of the Annke. I get it that everyone's a super CCTV geek here and thinks that every setup needs to be worthy of a bank surveillance system, but honestly he just wants an affordable home system that's an upgrade to his current system. Considering that he's already impressed with the ability to see license plates all the way from the adjoining street, I think that spending any additional money would return diminishing results.

 

[Flintstone61]

Dude, build what you want. Share your experience.

 

[wittaj]

Oh, I see you are from the country with big@$$ plates the size of car bumpers, so no wonder you can read the plates LOL.

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm fixed lens 4k cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away. Meanwhile my 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in to the public sidewalk provided the money shot to the police to get my neighbors all their stuff back. Nobody else had video that could provide anything useful, other than what time this motion blur ghost was at their car.

There are 2MP models for equivalent price that will kick this cameras butt at night.

When do most of us need a camera to perform - at night.

So if his motion video of a complete stranger can capture a still image of the person and not some ghost blur, then fine. Otherwise all he has is the ability to tell the police that "at 2:38am someone broke into my car".

 

[Flintstone61]

I built from what i had laying around in boxes. Opti-7010, Old Hdd’s, just to try BI.
then watched and learned from what I experienced.
I wasn’t afraid to tell on myself for buying cameras ignorantly without enough information and then being disappointed later when I really needed criminal activity to be detected much more clearly.
I bought Cameras that miss motion detection don’t have tunable settings and are very limiting and how you can adjust them and their performance is exactly what you pay for.

 

[Corvus85]

There are 2MP models for equivalent price that will kick this cameras butt at night.

Make and model? Like I said, he needs it to be affordable. If you can suggest something for around the same price as the Annke c800, then he'd probably get a few. Especially if it's 4MP and above.

 

[wittaj]

At that price point, those cameras are going to be on the 1/2.8" or 1/2.7" sensor. Those are tiny. Put a 2MP and 4MP and 8MP on the same size 1/2.8" sensor and the 2MP will kick the 4MP and 8MP all night long.

The 4MP will need double the light and the 8MP will need quadruple the light to produce the same image.

An analogy to try to understand why cameras need so much more light - let's look at a 4MP camera and this 4MP needs at least twice the amount of light as a 2MP at night for the same sensor. The sensor size is the same in each camera, but when you spread the "screen" of 4MP worth of pixel holes across the same sensor, it now has double the holes, but also double the "screen material" than the 2MP. A 4K camera would need 4 times the light of a 2MP or double the light of a 4MP for the same sensor.

Kind of hard to explain, but lets try to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it (that represents 2MP) and looking out through the screen is a little darker because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has double the holes (now it represents 4MP) and it will be darker looking through it because (while the resolution would be better) there is more screen material. At night time, look out your window with and without the screen and it will be darker looking through the screen than without it. If you are looking out your window to see the stars or the moon, do you look out the part of the window with the screen, or the upper portion without the screen material? Now obviously as it relates to a camera, you need to balance the amount of pixel holes with the screen material - too few holes (and thus less screen material) and the resolution suffers, and too many holes (and thus more screen material) and the more light that is needed.

It is why many of us here say do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). At nighttime is when most of us want the camera to perform. Almost any camera can work with enough daylight.

Look at Dahua, Amcrest, Lorex in your price range, but more importantly get the correct MP/sensor ratio as they all sell 8MP at that price point but it is on an inferior sensor size....

2MP on 1/2.8"
4MP on 1/1.8"
8MP on 1/1.2"

If it doesn't meet that, then don't buy.

 

[TVille]

Kind of hard to explain, but lets try to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it (that represents 2MP) and looking out through the screen is a little darker because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has double the holes (now it represents 4MP) and it will be darker looking through it because (while the resolution would be better) there is more screen material. At night time, look out your window with and without the screen and it will be darker looking through the screen than without it. If you are looking out your window to see the stars or the moon, do you look out the part of the window with the screen, or the upper portion without the screen material? Now obviously as it relates to a camera, you need to balance the amount of pixel holes with the screen material - too few holes (and thus less screen material) and the resolution suffers, and too many holes (and thus more screen material) and the more light that is needed.

I think of it in terms of density or units/area. You have a fixed amount of light spread across 2 million sensors. You then spread the same light across 4 million sensors. You now have half the light on each one of those tiny little sensors on the 4 MP camera. The sensor sizes you posted come out to approximately the same area per pixel.

I will add, if you haven't seen a good camera at night, you don't know what you are missing. You looking at a scene versus a cheap camera may be impressive, but a better camera will be that much more impressive. I used to think a VGA (640x480) display was great! The smaller sensors provide stationary views fairly well at night with long shutter times and lots of magic occurring in the camera before being sent out. Get someone walking and they quickly have a ghost following them and you can't see any details at all, but you can see where they have mostly been. My 4 MP cameras are adjusted now to damn near identify folks at night at 100 ', or as well as they can. I am covering over an acre in town, with streets on three sides. The recommended cameras will work great, particularly for the money. And while the 5442 is the cream of the crop right now, there are other, cheaper alternatives.

I have only been active on here for a short time, although I have been running two BI systems for years. I have learned a LOT by listening to the folks on here. Have gotten cameras dialed in to do so much better than previously listening to the folks here. They learned two ways - they did it by trial and error, or they listened to others on here, or a little of both. Listening to others cuts down on the frustration a LOT!

 

[crw030]

Can the existing NAS be hard wired to Blue Iris? I know some have USB-C etc ports, I wouldn't recommend constant write cycles to an SSD, I think the surveillance version SSD's probably would last long enough but only because of the over provisioning they have a lot of excess space waiting to take over for "burnt out" flash cells.
Half joking, you could get a better NUC (Think big, go mini) and hardwire to NAS and let us know how it works. You could also buy the one you researched, and see how it works, you might have to make some tradeoffs (like not recording 24x7, possibly not using Deepstack, and using substreams ofc) but if dad had a Swann DVR his expectations might be low anyhow.

You'll find the guidance here tends towards economical, and configurations people know work. You only have to go with SSD storage because you are buying a very small form factor that doesn't support a HDD. However for possibly less $$$ you could get something that has a HDD bay and also go with cheaper storage.
There are people that use NAS here, but it adds complexity and troubleshooting that for a simple no-frills, less-trouble solution you wouldn't want to tackle. Typically you want your surveillance and security systems to be things that "just work" and you don't have to think about, because you always know they are there working behind the scenes.

I agree with @Flintstone61 get some cheap off-lease and stick it in a closet where he doesn't have to look at it so you can drop in some proper 3.5" surveillance HDD, you don't need 10TB SSD ($700 + FAST), you need capacity 10TB HDD ($200). This solution will probably be quieter as well (although cheap fans might need a retrofit, I find some have terrible whine). Setup all the TVs in the house to open Blue Iris UI3 as one of the default inputs and he won't ever have to sit down at the computer anyhow.

But, take all recommendations with a grain of salt, that one come's coming from someone with a AZZA Hurrican 2000 with 10 drive bays, so I might have a addiction/problem.

 

[Corvus85]

The recommended cameras will work great, particularly for the money. And while the 5442 is the cream of the crop right now, there are other, cheaper alternatives.

Could you provide some examples of brand and model?

 

[SouthernYankee]

I would not recommend a 4K camera at this time for a surveillance application. I would also not recommend Annke cameras for your primary surveillance, they are mostly second string outdated cameras.

Get one good quality variable focus camera, 4MP with a 1/1.8 sensor test that you have the correct placement and correct lens. Test at night with motion with a "bad Guy" wearing a hoodie, can you ID them, will is help the cops catch the bad guy, will the video stand up in court. IF not you have wasted your money.

A NUC is not suitable for a BI application It is not upgradable, and will not standup to running 24/7/365. Go with a used Dell or HP business computer (NOT a home computer).
========================

My standard welcome to the forum message.

Read Study Plan before spending money
Cameras are for surveillance to get information for after the fact.

Please read the IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes and other items in the IP Cam Talk Wiki. (read on a real computer, not a phone). The wiki is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

Read How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!) in the wiki also.


Quick start
1) If you do not have a wired monitored alarm system, get that first
2) Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras if you need good low light cameras.
3) Start with a good variable focus camera, so you test for the correct lens,lighting, camera placement.
4) use a VPN to access home network (openVPN)
5) Do not use WIFI cameras.
6) Do not use cloud storage
7) Do Not use uPNP, P2P, QR, do not open ports,
8) More megapixel is not necessarily better.
9) Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))
10) Do not use reolink, ring, nest, Arlo, Vivint cameras (they are junk), no cloud cameras
11) If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
12) Use only solid copper, AWG 23 or 24 ethernet wire. , no CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum)
13) use a test mount to verify the camera mount location. My test rig: rev.2
14) (Looney2ns)If you want to be able to ID faces, don't mount cams higher than 7ft. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
15) Use a router that has openVPN built in (Most ASUS, Some NetGear....)
16) camera placement use the calculator... IPVM Camera Calculator
17) POE list PoE Switch Suggestion List
18) Camera Sensor size, bigger is general better Sensor Size Chart
19) Camera lens size the bigger number the more range the less FOV. . Which Security Camera Lens Size Should I Buy?
20) verify your camera placement, have a friend wearing a hoodie, ball cap and sunglasses looking down approach the house, can you identify them at night ?
21) DO NOT UPGRADE your NVR or camera unless you absolutely have a problem that needs to be fixed and known what you are doing, if you do you will turn it into a brick !!

Cameras to look at
IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED . Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+) - 4MP starlight
.................... Dahua IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED review
IPC-T5442TM-AS ..... Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ - 4MP starlight+
IPC-HDW5442t-ZE .... Dahua IPC-HDW5442T-ZE 4MP Varifocal Turret - Night Perfomance testing -- variable focus 2.7 mm-12mm 4 MP Starlight
IPC-B5442E-ZE ...... Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+ -- variable 2.7mm-12mm bullet
IPC-B5442E-Z4E .... bullet 8mm-32mm variable focus zoom 4MP
IPC-HFW7442H-Z ..... Review - Dahua IPC-HFW7442H-Z 4MP Ultra AI Varifocal Bullet Camera -- 4 MP variable focus AI


My preferred indoor cameras
DS-2CD2442FWD-IW
IPC-K35A Review-Dahua IPC-K35A 3mp Cube Camera
IPC-K42A


Read,study,plan before spending money ..... plan plan plan
To save money do it right the first time.
Test do not guess

 

[wittaj]

As I mentioned, do a search for Dahua, Amcrest, Lorex in your price range, but more importantly get the correct MP/sensor ratio as they all sell 8MP at that price point but it is on an inferior sensor size....

2MP on 1/2.8"
4MP on 1/1.8"
8MP on 1/1.2"

If it doesn't meet that, then don't buy.

We don't have model numbers off the top of our heads LOL, especially the lower price point ones. Most of us go by the specs anyway. Things like the 5442 series that many of us talk about we know the series, but there are a dozen or so models under that series and we do not know those model numbers LOL.

This is a free volunteer forum. You can search amazon for that criteria as easy as we can LOL. We have given you all the advice learned from members here. Now it is up to you to decide to listen to it or do your own thing.

But please post some of that night video with motion showing the exceptional quality and we can then tell you if that is comparable or worse or better to other cameras at that price point.

 

[biggen]

What's the point of going with a 4K camera with a small sensor? It has nothing to do with being a "geek". You want to do shit right the first time don't you??

Either get a 2MP with a 1/2.8" or a 4MP with a 1/1.8". Anything else will be inferior and id'ing someone at night during movement could be problematic. The Annke units have only exceeding your expectations because you haven't seen what a better camera can do. Yes, the 5442 cost more. But what's the point of a surveillance system that can't ID someone properly when the time comes?

I'd be interested at seeing what one of those Annke C800 camera can do at night with someone walking through the scene and seeing if we can get a clear face shot from it when pausing the video.

 

[Mike]

Those are all good questions. Unfortunately, this part of the WIKI is old and really needs revision. It was written before sub-streams were implemented in BI and before Deepstack was written in BI. It is also really a guide per se. You have to be realistic in your planning. Like you said, what are the chances of all 8 cams going full throttle at the same time? One trouble is having all 4K cams...lots of data. I currently have 23 cams (mix of 2mp and 4mp), some running sub-streams and others not. Most at 15fps but three at 25fps. Current is 575MP/s with CPU at 15% while running UI3 on an i7-8700. But I do not do Deepstack.

Would you be willing to edit the wiki for us? If so, shoot me a PM!

 

[Corvus85]

4MP with a 1/1.8"

Where do I go to get a list of models with this?

 

[sebastiantombs]

I said it requires a CUDA because you mentioned, what I believe, is a non CUDA card. DS only works with CUDA capable cards. I also said "requires" because DS works better, faster detection times, more accurate detection and no time outs of DS, when using a GPU. If you don't want to take advice, don't ask for it. Build your NUC and live with it.

 

[wittaj]

The 5442 series as at least 4 of us have mentioned, including a post with LINKS. Are you not reading what we post or just trolling...

Go to Amazon and type in 5442.

Here let me do if for you, but you have said these are above your price point so why are we wasting our time...

Here are the 7 models of 5442 available:

Amazon.com : 5442

 

[looney2ns]

Could you provide some examples of brand and model?

Use search dude, upper right corner of the page.
We are spinning our wheels with you.
Do what you want and move on.