Wiring POE cameras throughout a forty acre forest to track brown bears...

wittaj

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Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I don't see a person in that photo. Not even after you telling me.
Exactly!

And that is what many of these companies do - they show a nice bright static image at night and say "look we can see in total darkness" but they have slowed the shutter down to like 1/3s and cranked the gain up to 100, so it looks like noon when it is midnight, but motion is a complete blur.

Now for animals, you probably don't need it as fast as we run to capture perps (1/120), so you could probably get by with a slower shutter of say 1/30 and that won't need as much light as at 1/120.
 
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bigredfish

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Daytime will be golden. The cameras @wittaj is suggesting are very good, our top picks collectively.,
But seeing without light is TV stuff. Aint gonna happen

Here's examples of the two top pick favorites of the forum. Distances only 25-40ft

5442 4MP 1/1.8 sensor with IR on and help from another camera left of screen, and with IR off
Home_Dock-5442H-ZHE_main_20240228220221_@5.jpg Home_Dock-5442H-ZHE_main_20240228220431_@5.jpg
Home_Dock-5442H-ZHE_main_20231205091242_@5.jpg


1/1.2" 4K camera (cant see IR only white light) LEDs ON and Off
Home_GatorCam-Color4K-T_main_20240228220624_@5.jpg Home_GatorCam-Color4K-T_main_20240228220652_@5.jpg
Home_GatorCam-Color4K-T_main_20231209075523_@5.jpg
 
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tangent

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This is an ambitious project for sure and given my ignorance, I'd love to picks some brains here on how best to accomplish it. I have an off grid heavily forested property and I want to trench from a central location throughout the property to install hidden cameras in deadwood trees that I will carve out and place an enclosure into for quality wildlife footage and bear awareness while keeping the forest looking like a forest. Security from people isn't an issue this far out in Alaska, but security from Brown Bears is an issue. I'd like to get good footage I can use to make videos and I also want to program a system to keep the wife and I appraised when bears are around.

I've got a pretty good solar array and battery system and have 240V power available from a central location. I run 240V from my solar shed because I have to trench wires to various structures on the property and so I try to keep my wire costs lower with a higher voltage. My cabin is 700 feet away from my solar shed, for example. But the downside is that I have to use an AutoTransformer at each location to turn that power into 120V. I use DC power at the solar shed, but I can't run DC the long distances away from the shed because the cables would bankrupt me.

What I would like to do is hub and spoke trench power/fiber from the solar shed (1000 foot or so runs) throughout the property and have those lines terminate with some sort of device(s) that can turn the 240V into power that can be parceled out to outdoor rated POE cameras. One termination of each 240V line and fiber that allows for multiple POE cameras to be trenched from that termination spot.
You'll need to acquaint yourself with voltage drop calculations / a voltage drop calculator. Basically, the longer the cable the higher the resistance. This resistance reduces the voltage at the end of the cable and causes the cable to actually heat up a bit. To counter act this, longer cables need to be larger wire gauge (lower number). The requirements in the national electric code for burying a 240V run are significantly more challenging than say a GFCI protected 120V UF line. Lightning would be another fun challenge (though I don't think of AK as the lightning capitol of the US) with the web of wiring you describe. Bottom line is the way you envision this working is likely to be pretty difficult to do safely and effectively, not to mention expensive. I think you're underestimating these challenges. There are ePoE cameras that can go a bit longer than the standard 328' but it would still be challenging. The notion of totally hiding the cameras and all of the equipment inside hollowed out trees also isn't the most realistic. Try not to take offense at this, but this kind of feels like something I would have dreamed up when I was 10 years old.

A much more practical option would be a few clusters of cameras on a tree or pole with a wireless link back to the house and likely powered directly by a small scale solar system (math required). An off the self option to consider would be Cuddeback CuddeLink or other game cameras which send images wirelessly.

There are also long range motion sensors that could have some potential (these can get expensive too). On the most expensive fanciest end, there are radar based systems that can generate a bearing and distance to target and direct a PTZ accordingly (stoopid expensive, but so it your imagined project) also in the category are OTDR fiber optic intrusion systems (you'll find research papers on the subject, but good luck buying one).

I would start with a few cameras on the cabin, maybe a PTZ get a feel for how they work, what they can and can't do and adjust your plans.
 
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wittaj

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I have no experience, obviously, but I'm hoping the nighttime imagery is enough to identify wildlife and I'm hoping the daylight footage is quality and not just some cheap trail camera. I'm guessing hoping it's as good as an iPhone's quality is probably asking too much though?
Yeah, these are not DSLR cameras and in many situations an iphone can produce a better image, but can an iphone survive in the elements 24/7?

Is this good enough?

1709176158171.png

1709177025636.png
 

Noober

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You'll need to acquaint yourself with voltage drop calculations / a voltage drop calculator. Basically, the longer the cable the higher the resistance. This resistance reduces the voltage at the end of the cable and causes the cable to actually heat up a bit. To counter act this, longer cables need to be larger wire gauge (lower number). The requirements in the national electric code for burying a 240V run are significantly more challenging than say a GFCI protected 120V UF line. Lightning would be another fun challenge (though I don't think of AK as the lightning capitol of the US) with the web of wiring you describe. Bottom line is the way you envision this working is likely to be pretty difficult to do safely and effectively, not to mention expensive. I think you're underestimating these challenges. There are ePoE cameras that can go a bit longer than the standard 328' but it would still be challenging. The notion of totally hiding the cameras and all of the equipment inside hollowed out trees also isn't the most realistic. Try not to take offense at this, but this kind of feels like something I would have dreamed up when I was 10 years old.

A much more practical option would be a few clusters of cameras on a tree or pole with a wireless link back to the house and likely powered directly by a small scale solar system (math required). An off the self option to consider would be Cuddeback CuddeLink or other game cameras which send images wirelessly.

There are also long range motion sensors that could have some potential (these can get expensive too). On the most expensive fanciest end, there are radar based systems that can generate a bearing and distance to target and direct a PTZ accordingly (stoopid expensive, but so it your imagined project) also in the category are OTDR fiber optic intrusion systems (you'll find research papers on the subject, but good luck buying one).

I would start with a few cameras on the cabin, maybe a PTZ get a feel for how they work, what they can and can't do and adjust your plans.
Yeah, I'm going to have to figure out the grounding and safety is a top priority. I trenched and installed the 700 foot cable from the solar shed to the cabin and went through all the calculations to ensure we could pump 20KW of power to the cabin. 250kcm/250kcm/4-0 aluminum cable to carry all that juice. I would hope the cables would be much smaller for this project given the power required is so much less but I haven't yet done the calculations. I have an excavator and a trenching bucket so that cuts down on costs a bit.

I am like a ten year old, except I now have a little better allowance, so if I can make this happen I will. Jury is still out on that.

We have a lot of standing deadwood trees where I'm at, so cutting one down, hollowing out the inside, installing the camera, and then augering a hole and reinstaling the deadwood (shortened) to disguise the camera seems pretty doable but I haven't done it yet so we'll see.

We are in a forest and I can't afford to get it wrong, so if you want to elaborate on safety issues, I am all ears for that.
 

tangent

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Yeah, I'm going to have to figure out the grounding and safety is a top priority. I trenched and installed the 700 foot cable from the solar shed to the cabin and went through all the calculations to ensure we could pump 20KW of power to the cabin. 250kcm/250kcm/4-0 aluminum cable to carry all that juice. I would hope the cables would be much smaller for this project given the power required is so much less but I haven't yet done the calculations. I have an excavator and a trenching bucket so that cuts down on costs a bit.
...
We are in a forest and I can't afford to get it wrong, so if you want to elaborate on safety issues, I am all ears for that.
Dead trees fall down eventually and that could get expensive... I wouldn't run 240V to your camera locations, while the higher voltage is helpful I'm not sure it's worth the associated risks. You could probably get away 12 or 10 gauge UF cable fed by a GFCI protected breaker for 400-500 feet and could run burial rated CAT-6 to ePoE cameras another 500-600'. At some point solar at the point of use is more economical.

From an engineering standpoint it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense to put your 'solar shed' so far from your cabin.

It's kind of a question of what your objectives are, it's not that realistic to monitor the entirety of your fence line / property. We're talking over a mile of fence line here (exact dimensions unknown, just a crude estimate based on 40 acres). Are trees cleared along the property boundaries or is all forest?
 

Noober

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Dead trees fall down eventually and that could get expensive... I wouldn't run 240V to your camera locations, while the higher voltage is helpful I'm not sure it's worth the associated risks. You could probably get away 12 or 10 gauge UF cable fed by a GFCI protected breaker for 400-500 feet and could run burial rated CAT-6 to ePoE cameras another 500-600'. At some point solar at the point of use is more economical.

From an engineering standpoint it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense to put your 'solar shed' so far from your cabin.

It's kind of a question of what your objectives are, it's not that realistic to monitor the entirety of your fence line / property. We're talking over a mile of fence line here (exact dimensions unknown, just a crude estimate based on 40 acres). Are trees cleared along the property boundaries or is all forest?
What are the associated risks of 240V? I'd trench it down at least four feet. Is there a risk from the higher voltage you are thinking of, or do you mean the bigger shock from higher voltage if you put a shovel through the line?

The reason the solar shed is so far from the cabin is because the cabin is in the one location that has a view of a mountain range and glaciers (but doesn't see the sun in the winter) and the solar shed location is the one single spot on the entire property that sees the sun in the winter. So I wanted the panels in that spot, and I opted to run higher voltage from that shed to the various structures on the property because I didn't want to set up another whole system for every structure (panels, inverters, MPPTs, etc).

You're right, it's about a mile perimeter but I don't need to monitor all of it, but I'l try to monitor most of it. It's not all trees. I do want to cut a bit of a fire line on the perimeter anyway, so I may be able to kill two birds.
 

EMPIRETECANDY

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Yes the thermal camera can be great for the wildlife watching and monitoring, no matter the weather is, and it can detect long range.
Wittaj test just a basic entry model, there has higher end but price is bit higher, The basic one can do most job.
 

Noober

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Yes the thermal camera can be great for the wildlife watching and monitoring, no matter the weather is, and it can detect long range.
Wittaj test just a basic entry model, there has higher end but price is bit higher, The basic one can do most job.
The website seems to have two options for lens size (price appears to be the same at 474.99).

2mm (Thermal 2mm | Visible 2mm) New Look

or

3.5mm (Thermal 3.5mm | Visible 4mm)

Which lens size is better?

Based on Wittaj's review, I think I'll buy one and test it out at the cabin and based on the results I might get a few more.
 

wittaj

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The website seems to have two options for lens size (price appears to be the same at 474.99).

2mm (Thermal 2mm | Visible 2mm) New Look

or

3.5mm (Thermal 3.5mm | Visible 4mm)

Which lens size is better?

Based on Wittaj's review, I think I'll buy one and test it out at the cabin and based on the results I might get a few more.
It comes down to what your field of view is.

The smaller the focal length(mm) the wider the angle. The higher the focal length, the smaller the field of view but the further it sees.

I would highly recommend a thermal for your use case.

See this thread that shows the importance of focal length and how the field of view changes with focal length:

 

Noober

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It comes down to what your field of view is.

The smaller the focal length(mm) the wider the angle. The higher the focal length, the smaller the field of view but the further it sees.

I would highly recommend a thermal for your use case.

See this thread that shows the importance of focal length and how the field of view changes with focal length:

Thanks. Based on that I think I'll try the higher focal length version. I have a relatively narrow FOV off the front of the cabin I'd like to cover to start, but it's 400 feet long so further is better.

FOV.jpg
 

f1restarter

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Look for equipment for the european market, all consumer electrics are 240V. A standard PoE switch that runs off 240volts main with a SFP slot (for a fiber module) is what you need. A 1000ft run (333m) is easily accomplished. Keep the poe switch in a suitable enclosure centrally located and run poe cable to your cameras from there. FS.com has direct burial fibre, I believe it is called military spec or similar. A common cable type for 240v electrics is called "PFSP" which is direct burial cable. Very common cable where I live to run power to garages/sheds etc. It has copper grounding and sheeting all around it beneath the plastic outercasing so there is no danger of sticking a shovel through it. I has to be around 50cm/ less than 2 ft deep to be legal. And that is without a conduit. Ideally it has to be backfilled with sand or similar to avoid sharp rocks damaging it.
 

f1restarter

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I don't know the regulations or "code" in your part of the world but maybe it does not apply to off-grid systems anyway?
 

Noober

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Look for equipment for the european market, all consumer electrics are 240V. A standard PoE switch that runs off 240volts main with a SFP slot (for a fiber module) is what you need. A 1000ft run (333m) is easily accomplished. Keep the poe switch in a suitable enclosure centrally located and run poe cable to your cameras from there. FS.com has direct burial fibre, I believe it is called military spec or similar. A common cable type for 240v electrics is called "PFSP" which is direct burial cable. Very common cable where I live to run power to garages/sheds etc. It has copper grounding and sheeting all around it beneath the plastic outercasing so there is no danger of sticking a shovel through it. I has to be around 50cm/ less than 2 ft deep to be legal. And that is without a conduit. Ideally it has to be backfilled with sand or similar to avoid sharp rocks damaging it.
Awesome, thanks! I will definitely look into that. No codes here fortunately although I want to make sure everything is done safely and correctly.
 

Noober

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Yes the thermal camera can be great for the wildlife watching and monitoring, no matter the weather is, and it can detect long range.
Wittaj test just a basic entry model, there has higher end but price is bit higher, The basic one can do most job.
Do you sell any PTZ thermal hybrid models? I have one central location that could really benefit from such a thing, especially since the solar panels would be in that area and the thermal could help detect any panels going bad.
 

f1restarter

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