sebastiantombs
Known around here
Another thank you to both you, WC, and Andy for getting this kind of arrangement in place, and especially to you for doing all the work involved plus keeping all of us "duffers" aware of what you're seeing!
Worlds First Review - Dahua - IPC-Color4K-X / DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED - Full Color 4K Camera
- Thread starter Wildcat_1
- Start date
Late breaking update, Dahua beat the estimate for the new FW for me (originally planned for end of week or next week) and provided tonight ! Will be loading it on the cam and will report back as I test it.
ljw2k
Known around here
WC you should be in QC for Dahua as you sure are dedicated at sorting all their problems out. Will be interested to see if the new firmware improves picture quality.
hahahah, my hope is that this deep, real-world level of testing helps all of us here regardless of security/IP product or manufacturer. I'm pleased to see my latest findings on the SmartIR issues for example of the 5442 / SMD3.0 FW have now made it into real fixes that offer real improvements for all of us. I will continue to deep dive on the testing of this, other cams, systems, FW etc pulling them apart and providing unbiased reviews as well as feedback to manufacturers such as Dahua both on end user and code level fixes in hopes to get them and us, better products featuring improved performance straight out of the gate as they move to release.
I applaud Dahua (and thanks to @EMPIRETECANDY for also pushing this) in taking this approach to new/nearly released products and welcome the same from Hik and others. I don't mind putting the work in as long as all of us (manufacturers included to be fair) see the positive results of doing so.
looney2ns
IPCT Contributor
looney2ns
IPCT Contributor
Should be? You mean he's not already?
ljw2k
Known around here
He must be due a Christmas hamper soon!Should be? You mean he's not already?
I captured video over the first night with the new FW and am currently encoding it now so I can upload. I will show how this compares to the existing (5/26 FW)
I know this camera is essentially a prototype and you are doing some wonderful beta testing for them, but I agree with @sebastiantombs that the first glimpse of it with daytime that the 5442 seemed to be overall better video, but the night images that most of us are concerned about is no comparison and this camera beats the 5442 easily, and I am sure the new FW will only improve upon it.
Look forward to your next video!
@Wildcat_1 - I also sent you a DM in case your DM is acting up again LOL
Look forward to your next video!
@Wildcat_1 - I also sent you a DM in case your DM is acting up again LOL
Parley
Known around here
I agree. The night video is so much better. It is a win-win for me.
I captured video over the first night with the new FW and am currently encoding it now so I can upload. I will show how this compares to the existing (5/26 FW)
Maybe I can make it a win-win-win
Got your DM. Will reach out as soon as I can
Maybe I can make it a win-win-win
Got your DM. Will reach out as soon as I can
They take feedback seriously, that's why they continue to deserve our business
They take feedback seriously, that's why they continue to deserve our business
Absolutely! And Andy is as good as they come. I haven't seen any chatter anywhere else where an Andy equivalent (reseller vendor) has the type of relationship with a camera manufacturer to get changes like this made.
Heck, I bet the authorized US Dahua Dealers don't even have this kind of clout with Dahua LOL.
Parley
Known around here
I captured video over the first night with the new FW and am currently encoding it now so I can upload. I will show how this compares to the existing (5/26 FW)
Maybe I can make it a win-win-win
Got your DM. Will reach out as soon as I can
A win-win-win is great. I cannot wait to see the lastest video. IMHO the detail was better in the daylight videos with the 4K. As I said before look at the light bulbs, your shoes and hat. For comparison you left the settings the same for both cameras in order to be a fair comparison. However IMHO that tends to overexpose the 4K with the bigger sensor.
yes absolutely overexposes but like you said want to do a like for like then show how to dial in as I did at the end. You’ll see more dialing in within the next short night video and I’ll point out how Hik & Dah use understood controls which although expand the range of ability need more careful dialing in to compensate. In the upcoming video (awaiting YouTube) you’ll see how I balance the scene and selective dial in to leave a small area overexposed BUT is not critical to the scene and therefore doesn’t kill the image.
So here’s the latest video I captured running the new 6-11 FW. This FW is based on improving the lighting response overall as a first step. As I mention in the video, regardless of manufacturer (Dahua, Hik etc) they all employ the same approach when it comes to color at night and image brightness and that is to increase the underlying video AGC’s (Auto Gain Control) to drive that brighter image. This is not to be confused with the gain controls you as a user have access to although they work similarly albeit with an AGC you have no control. While AGC’s can certainly assist in this area, unlike pro video / cinema cams / high end DSLR’s etc you have a much smaller (albeit decent on these cams) sensor which even when controlled algorithmically utilizing the latest smart AI in the codebase (as these cams use), still prioritizes bumping light through gain over reducing noise and retaining color accuracy as well as detail. This can mean great bright images BUT poor quality. Luckily these cams do approach the role of night shooting like the tried and test pro approach which is to use low dispersion, low aperture lenses (f1.0 in this case) which helps to an extent but as users we have to realize these are not $5K, $10K, $20K lenses run on $5k, $10K, $20K, $60K+ Sony, Canon, Red or Arri bodies so have their limits
Now in the case of these cams (Dahua, Hik), noise is controlled quite well BUT there are 2 other disadvantages of programming AGC priorities under the hood. 1) the user cannot control the code level AGC themselves and 2) AGC’s not only add noise but they also desaturate an image, noticed not only close but gets worse with distance (becomes washed out and flat). Add fixed, wide lenses to this and if they are not super high quality (I’m talking $2500 + glass as a minimum) then you also run the risk of losing too much detail. However, if implemented correctly and you understand the above, you can adjust the image to balance the cam for the FOV and ultimately benefit from the wider range of light that these cams can offer while controlling your cam's end image destiny
Therefore at the end of this video I show you how we can adjust the cam to balance the benefit brought to it by the changes in 6-11 FW (increased sensor driven AGC range) while improving overall image and looking to mitigate noise, improve clarity, reduce de-saturation and at the same time even (as crazy as it sounds with a night image and color at that) lower noise reduction (NR) even further to levels that you would generally reserve for daytime use (end video I drop NR to 30). This doesn’t mean you eradicate all noise but mitigate to levels that can still provide very usable images. I would tweak this a little more still but wanted to at least give you an initial ideal on what’s possible without keeping everyone waiting Unfortunately, YouTube in it's infinite wisdom still adds compression artifacts to pro-encoded clips so you may see some of that but not much I can do about that one.
Talking of daytime, I will also look to re-capture daytime images using the new FW and post that up next week. Take a look, hope this helps all give a little more understanding here to color at night, how it works, the pluses & minuses and how, in my opinion by taking the approach I show here you get to take back control of your image, benefit from color at night and look to work it into your overall system. I continue to feed my findings and recommended AGC / codebase adjustments from this FW as well back to the Dahua engineering team.
Let me know with any questions, thoughts as always.
NOTE: One last thing, I should be getting a Hik in my hands over the next few days so if so will also do a comparison for you too.
Now in the case of these cams (Dahua, Hik), noise is controlled quite well BUT there are 2 other disadvantages of programming AGC priorities under the hood. 1) the user cannot control the code level AGC themselves and 2) AGC’s not only add noise but they also desaturate an image, noticed not only close but gets worse with distance (becomes washed out and flat). Add fixed, wide lenses to this and if they are not super high quality (I’m talking $2500 + glass as a minimum) then you also run the risk of losing too much detail. However, if implemented correctly and you understand the above, you can adjust the image to balance the cam for the FOV and ultimately benefit from the wider range of light that these cams can offer while controlling your cam's end image destiny
Therefore at the end of this video I show you how we can adjust the cam to balance the benefit brought to it by the changes in 6-11 FW (increased sensor driven AGC range) while improving overall image and looking to mitigate noise, improve clarity, reduce de-saturation and at the same time even (as crazy as it sounds with a night image and color at that) lower noise reduction (NR) even further to levels that you would generally reserve for daytime use (end video I drop NR to 30). This doesn’t mean you eradicate all noise but mitigate to levels that can still provide very usable images. I would tweak this a little more still but wanted to at least give you an initial ideal on what’s possible without keeping everyone waiting
Unfortunately, YouTube in it's infinite wisdom still adds compression artifacts to pro-encoded clips so you may see some of that but not much I can do about that one.Talking of daytime, I will also look to re-capture daytime images using the new FW and post that up next week. Take a look, hope this helps all give a little more understanding here to color at night, how it works, the pluses & minuses and how, in my opinion by taking the approach I show here you get to take back control of your image, benefit from color at night and look to work it into your overall system. I continue to feed my findings and recommended AGC / codebase adjustments from this FW as well back to the Dahua engineering team.
Let me know with any questions, thoughts as always.
NOTE: One last thing, I should be getting a Hik in my hands over the next few days so if so will also do a comparison for you too.
Video Link - Be Sure To Force 4K
sebastiantombs
Known around here
That's a significant improvement! I like that, a lot!
ljw2k
Known around here
WC as you know many people do not have additional lighting and would rely on the Internal Built in LED's , as this camera has 4 is there any chance you can kill all your 250W White LED lighting albeit lowered to 12W ish so we can see what the Built in LED's look like in real time against a well lit White LED view.
Parley
Known around here
Well done. 
No question about it, a win-win-win. It will be interesting to see the Hikvision comparison. Andy, put me down for one of these cameras if you have pre-order.
No question about it, a win-win-win. It will be interesting to see the Hikvision comparison. Andy, put me down for one of these cameras if you have pre-order.
Parley
Known around here
One thing I have notice is that the Hikvsion 4K cameras with the 1/1.2" sensor use a higher CPU% than my Dahua 4k cameras with the 4/3" sensors. I am using Hikvision IVMS-4200 client for all my cameras.