Pandemic threat? Anyone else concerned?

Frankenscript

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President Trump is now talking about getting this country back to work. I am all for it using common sense and due diligence.
We are nowhere near the point where we will have had an appreciable effect on infection rate! Not even close!

If we want to get a handle on this we need to stay strict until the curve tapers off. My guess is all the way through April at a minimum. Then, we can use gradual lightening of the measures plus aggressive testing to keep the lid on it. Testing capabilities are ramping up, albeit slow due to the policies taken early on in this thing

This is a decision to be made by epidemiologists not politicians.

If we loosen up quickly, like next week, will have done relatively little to help flatten the curve. In a month we will have to go back to another cycle of lockdown, over and over again.

Meanwhile we need proper support for small business and workers, not these tightly limited payouts to individuals and unrestricted slush funds for big corporations.

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erkme73

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I'd go one step further yet and actually blame THE HOARDERS. Probably less so than the feds or hospitals but its worth a mention.

There are nurses and doctors that need personal protective equipment but thanks to hoarders (and poor policy federal and local) the people who ACTUALLY need them don't have them. Is it the stores fault there is no crap paper on the shelf? No its the people who are buying up all the supply that don't need it.

Is this crap-ton of masks, goggles, gloves being put to use currently?

Is you wife taking them to the ER and putting them to use?

If not when are you going to donate this crap-ton of masks, goggles, gloves?

I agree there are many high level people that chose profits over all else and deserve to be drawn and quartered but at what point do we come together and try to help our current situation?

Maybe once we drawn and quartered all the people who got us in this mess we do the same to all the people who hoarded supply they didn't need.(I know that wont be a popular statement on this site)

Don't take this as a attack against you because it isn't. I'm just trying to make the point the the government dropped the ball and we the people kicked it down the road. If you feel you need 5,000 N95 mask and 15 years of toilet paper you should of already had this stuff stashed before there were supply shortages.

I found out last night that my wife's hospital is following other hospitals and not issuing N95 to staff unless they are working in proximity to a infected person. Makes me see red when she has to work on the front lines of this crises and not even be able to receive the proper PPE to keep her safe, while others cower in their homes away from any danger surrounded by PPE they WILL NEVER USE!






erkme I hope you and your wife can stay safe and healthy having to work during this mess.
Thanks for the well wishes. Still waiting to hear back if her patients tested positive. Charge nurse called this AM to tell her that they still haven't heard anything. That nurse is also self-isolating when not at work.

My following comments are directed towards to those in general who blame those who have prepared (hoarders) - no necessarily you specifically...

Yes, of course she is using our supply. Fortunately the administrators are not only allowing HCWs to wear them, they are requiring everyone to wear them - including their own personal stock if they have them. As you pointed out, there are administrators who are threatening to FIRE HCWs for wearing masks outside of affected patients' rooms. They want to prevent panic and conserve masks (which makes no sense, as taking off a mask and reusing it contributes to cross-contamination). Of course, these administrators who are putting HCW's lives at risk, are conveniently working from home due to the risk. It is infuriating.

This was from a private doctor group on FB this morning:

1585076237935.png

As far as hoarding, I could not disagree any more strongly. People who are paying attention and prepare for themselves and their family - people who have ignored the patently false CDC propaganda that n95 masks don't work and in some cases are harmful - are to be commended for being attentive enough to take action. Exactly what hospital administrators (and .gov) SHOULD have been doing.

The fact that the public was better at perceiving the threat than those charged with watching for it, is not their fault. I understand the frustration of HCWs who now do not have enough PPE to protect themselves. And if noble, selfless members of the public want to donate their personal stash, then they should. But to shame them, guilt them into donating it, simply transfers blame to the wrong party.

You probably saw this news story:



Here, Target managed to source a bunch of N95 masks. They put them on the market for people to buy them. Once social media found out about it, Target was shamed into pulling the masks and donating them to WA state hospitals. Commendable by them to take the loss, but is it right? Hell no. What should happen? The hospitals should BUY the masks from Target - using the personal/department funds of those who dropped the ball. You think the hospitals won't charge the patients for the masks?

Whoever the buyer is at Target is doing a better job forecasting needs than the people at the hospital who's purpose it is to do just that. They failed at their job, and now they're demanding that the rest of us surrender our goods?

Look, I get it. HCWs are caught in the middle. They have administrators that clearly dropped the ball - who are now putting their workers at risk. It's easy to blame the assholes who stocked up. But that anger is misplaced.

In early February, when my wife mentioned the virus to other fellow docs at the hospital - they were all dismissive. She wasn't. I wasn't. We prepared. And now we're the assholes? Uh-uh...

That said, if someone bought 5000 N95 masks with the purpose of reselling them for a profit, I could see that there is something very unethical about that practice. But, arguably, if someone does offer up 5000 masks for an insane price, at least they are available. This gets into the whole price-gouging, price-controls debate similar to what happens with gas and plywood when a hurricane is approaching. I staunchly against anti-gouging laws, because I think raising prices necessarily increases supply (from people willing to take greater risk and expense to get items to where they're needed). But granted, when the whole world is having a shortage, and .gov is subsidizing the cost to convert factories into mask making machines, supply/demand rules evaporate.
 

erkme73

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Read some of the quotes - what hospital administrators are doing to their docs... Insanity!

Attending Physician, WA:



"I was in the middle of doing an exam on a patient when an administrator from my hospital interrupted the visit to speak to me. He asked if the patient was at high risk for COVID infection. When I explained that he was not, he told me to immediately take off my mask. When I refused, he ripped it off my face, stating: 'You are giving patients the impression that COVID is far worse than it is.'"



Physician Assistant, VT:



“I work in a community hospital. I was wearing an N-95 mask I brought from home since our hospital was out of stock. A hospital administrator told me I could not wear one because unless I had enough with me to give to everyone, no one could wear them. He put a written complaint in my file when my response was, ‘I have heard of share-day in preschool— but must have missed the It's share-day in the ER memo.'"



Attending Physician, NY:



“I was just placed on administrative leave indefinitely because I sent an email to the entire administrative team of the health system where I work, questioning (firmly) why they had yet to create an operationalized system that hospital staff and physicians could follow so positive COVID patients in our hospital could be separated from those who did not have it."



Medical Assistant, CA:



“After a Zoom meeting where we were told we no longer needed to wear PPE if we were not within two feet of an ill patient, I asked the director of health services in our healthcare system running the meeting if exceptions could be made for those individuals who were immune-compromised like myself, since I had just returned to work after a short leave due to treatment for breast cancer. His response: 'Do you think having cancer makes you special? If you don’t agree with these recommendations then you can self-elect to use PTO and stay at home.'”



Critical Care Physician, AZ:



"As a critical care physician, I asked our hospital administration what they expected me and my colleagues to do if we were faced with a situation where our need for ventilators exceeded what we had available. His response: 'Do the best you can.' I questioned this by requesting something more procedural and in writing that physicians could follow but was told, 'We don’t have time to put together a protocol for a situation that will likely never happen. However, if this time comes, we can discuss it then.' Apparently being proactive is outside the scope of healthcare administrators capabilities.”



Registered Nurse, CA:



“Our administrators said they would be working from home and would not be coming into the hospital. I inquired as to why. They told us that their contributions to the work flows at this time were not as important as ours as healthcare employees, and they didn’t want to risk increasing the numbers of those infected. Another nurse sitting next to me in the same on-line meeting asked, ‘If you aren’t as important as those of us coming in to work every day amidst this COVID crisis then why do you get paid four times more than what physicians do?’ The administrator ended the meeting without responding.”



Attending Physician, WA:



“The administrators called an emergency meeting to discuss PPE. As an Infectious Disease specialist, I requested to be in attendance. I was told this would not be necessary, however, I was assured that no formal decisions as they pertained to PPE would be made without administration first gathering my input. Not more than an hour after the meeting was due to start, a mass email was sent to the entire hospital system workforce of nearly 10,000 people stating that masks would be given out on a case-by-case basis determined only by those on the administrative team. In other words, it wouldn’t be those with a medical or nursing degree determining who needed a mask and who did not, but instead those with a business one. Smart.”



Central Supply Director, KY:



“There are approximately 20,000 masks sitting in our central supply storage with an expiration date of January 2020. Despite this, I made a recommendation that we redistribute them to other hospitals in our system who needed them. The next day at work, all the masks were off the inventory list and I was later told by my boss that I should not ask questions about system recommendations that are outside of my pay grade.”



Medical Clinic Manager, CA:



“In the healthcare system I belong to, we currently have two CEO’s each making nearly $10 million dollars a year. They run the largest healthcare corporation in the nation, yet when I asked in January if we could be proactive about COVID, I was told by hospital administration that funds were tight and we wouldn’t be able to order excess PPE in preparation. As I was walking away from the administrator he said, ‘Take my advice, if you have stocks, start selling them.’ I didn’t understand what he meant by this until now. They knew this was coming yet did nothing to prepare.”



Attending Physician, PA:



“I and my other surgeon colleagues each received a phone call from our hospital CEO that despite recommendations from the Surgeon General, under no circumstances were we to take it upon ourselves to reschedule elective surgeries. If we did, we would risk losing our jobs.”



Attending Physician, TX:



“I overheard the CFO from our hospital system tell our hospital president that they were allocating insurance reimbursement money as a potential bonus opportunity to hospital administrators who were able to stay on budget without costing them more amid this COVID (and I quote) 'shit-show.'”



Attending Physician, SC:



“I recently came down with a low-grade fever and chills. I emailed my clinic manager suggesting I be tested for COVID. I was told not to test due to the need for me in the clinic and to wait until I was showing signs of shortness of breath. I didn’t realize that the administrators running the show had in their spare time, obtained a degree to practice medicine.”
 

Jessie.slimer

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Thanks for the well wishes. Still waiting to hear back if her patients tested positive. Charge nurse called this AM to tell her that they still haven't heard anything. That nurse is also self-isolating when not at work.

My following comments are directed towards to those in general who blame those who have prepared (hoarders) - no necessarily you specifically...

Yes, of course she is using our supply. Fortunately the administrators are not only allowing HCWs to wear them, they are requiring everyone to wear them - including their own personal stock if they have them. As you pointed out, there are administrators who are threatening to FIRE HCWs for wearing masks outside of affected patients' rooms. They want to prevent panic and conserve masks (which makes no sense, as taking off a mask and reusing it contributes to cross-contamination). Of course, these administrators who are putting HCW's lives at risk, are conveniently working from home due to the risk. It is infuriating.

This was from a private doctor group on FB this morning:

View attachment 57914

As far as hoarding, I could not disagree any more strongly. People who are paying attention and prepare for themselves and their family - people who have ignored the patently false CDC propaganda that n95 masks don't work and in some cases are harmful - are to be commended for being attentive enough to take action. Exactly what hospital administrators (and .gov) SHOULD have been doing.

The fact that the public was better at perceiving the threat than those charged with watching for it, is not their fault. I understand the frustration of HCWs who now do not have enough PPE to protect themselves. And if noble, selfless members of the public want to donate their personal stash, then they should. But to shame them, guilt them into donating it, simply transfers blame to the wrong party.

You probably saw this news story:



Here, Target managed to source a bunch of N95 masks. They put them on the market for people to buy them. Once social media found out about it, Target was shamed into pulling the masks and donating them to WA state hospitals. Commendable by them to take the loss, but is it right? Hell no. What should happen? The hospitals should BUY the masks from Target - using the personal/department funds of those who dropped the ball. You think the hospitals won't charge the patients for the masks?

Whoever the buyer is at Target is doing a better job forecasting needs than the people at the hospital who's purpose it is to do just that. They failed at their job, and now they're demanding that the rest of us surrender our goods?

Look, I get it. HCWs are caught in the middle. They have administrators that clearly dropped the ball - who are now putting their workers at risk. It's easy to blame the assholes who stocked up. But that anger is misplaced.

In early February, when my wife mentioned the virus to other fellow docs at the hospital - they were all dismissive. She wasn't. I wasn't. We prepared. And now we're the assholes? Uh-uh...

That said, if someone bought 5000 N95 masks with the purpose of reselling them for a profit, I could see that there is something very unethical about that practice. But, arguably, if someone does offer up 5000 masks for an insane price, at least they are available. This gets into the whole price-gouging, price-controls debate similar to what happens with gas and plywood when a hurricane is approaching. I staunchly against anti-gouging laws, because I think raising prices necessarily increases supply (from people willing to take greater risk and expense to get items to where they're needed). But granted, when the whole world is having a shortage, and .gov is subsidizing the cost to convert factories into mask making machines, supply/demand rules evaporate.
Perfectly said. Wish there was a clapping icon instead of the thumbs up, so unfortunately you only get the thumbs up from me.
 

mat200

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I don't see how any person buying from Target / Walmart / Home Depot of N95 or surgical masks should significantly impact the States from ordering in bulk directly from the factories for the hospitals. ( if the state really wanted, they could use the force of law to take control.. )

Clearly we are no longer producing enough domestically of critical supplies, that is the real issue.
 

Q™

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there are administrators who are threatening to FIRE HCWs for wearing masks outside of affected patients' rooms
This is fuQing insane. smiley7.gif
As far as hoarding, I could not disagree any more strongly
I guess it depends on the definition of "hoarding". I've been prepared for Chaos since immediately after 911 and I'd challenge anyone who claimed I was a "hoarder" and not being a responsible American. However, I was prepared for long-term shelter-in-place and Run-Hide-Fight...I was not prepared for Worldwide Viral Pandemic and Economic Shutdown In Two FuQing Weeks.
 

lulu5kamz

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Fellas! Things are getting seriously fuQed up out there!
This is the best post on this thread today. I saw some similar videos like this on 9gag. We need a little humor to deal with all the stuff currently happening. Thanks Q.
 

Bigbore050

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Look, I get it. HCWs are caught in the middle. They have administrators that clearly dropped the ball - who are now putting their workers at risk. It's easy to blame the assholes who stocked up. But that anger is misplaced.

In early February, when my wife mentioned the virus to other fellow docs at the hospital - they were all dismissive. She wasn't. I wasn't. We prepared. And now we're the assholes? Uh-uh...
I do agree with everything you said and that my anger is somewhat misplaced. But I will stick to my statement that the hoarding contributed to this shortage. Hell even the hospitals are hoarding. I heard from a gal the works in supply at a neighboring hospital and they are no longer checking in inventory so other hospitals cant see or request stock. Its easy to say that well shoulda been more prepared but there is too many variables in play.

And for the record preppers are not in the same category as hoarders in my book. Hoarders are the people that go out uneducated and buy the stores out of certain items they dont need because they saw someone buying/wearing them on TV. At least preppers research what they buy and have a plan to use them or at least took the time to learn how. I would not be surprised if hoarders out number preppers by insane numbers.

I personally don't want any N95 mask. I have not been trained on how to properly wear them for them to be effective no the desire to be trained because I do not need a mask considering my risk of death and my day to day activities. If things get bad enough I will stay home. They also dont fit in my minimalist doomsday prep lol.

It would sure would be nice to go to lowes and buy some for my wife to wear but I can't. I'm sure the vast majority of the N95 mask sold in the last couple months went to people who don't need them and have no clue how to properly use them.

And for the general public to not have a major affect on supply chains look at toilet paper. We are not all of sudden taking more craps so whats the need to buy out the stores?

But no one is hoarding hand soap and that they should be using more of.
 

erkme73

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Where should the anger for this be placed?

1585097166068.png

There is some sort of power play at work here. It used to be that physicians were the top of the food chain. Now, they're nothing more than grunts for the administrators, bureaucrats, and believe it or not, pharmacists. That wonder drug that India is now prescribing as a prophylactic to COVID exposure - hexachloroquine - is now unavailable. Not because there isn't any. Not because physicians won't write for it, but because the pharmacists association has taken a stance that refuses to fill the script unless it meets very specific criteria - including recent travel to malaria-endemic countries, or patients who are already currently taking it. So now, the power of the prescription pad is being challenged.

What's the effing point of going to med school?
 

Frankenscript

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This doc may be a lucky one. In a couple weeks, when the ER is overwhelmed and other docs are sick or dead from the disease, folks like him will have their pick of positions as hospitals clamor for docs, nurses, and other workers.

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Arjun

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Ya, its called maintaining personal hygiene, everyone should be having soap in their pantry

Hmmm...I've had 50 bars of hand soap in my basement since 2004.
 

erkme73

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I personally don't want any N95 mask. I have not been trained on how to properly wear them for them to be effective no the desire to be trained because I do not need a mask considering my risk of death and my day to day activities. If things get bad enough I will stay home. They also dont fit in my minimalist doomsday prep lol.

It would sure would be nice to go to lowes and buy some for my wife to wear but I can't. I'm sure the vast majority of the N95 mask sold in the last couple months went to people who don't need them and have no clue how to properly use them.

And for the general public to not have a major affect on supply chains look at toilet paper. We are not all of sudden taking more craps so whats the need to buy out the stores?

But no one is hoarding hand soap and that they should be using more of.
I understand what you're saying, and I can empathize with your scenario. However, the intent, education, and training level by everyone who purchased them prior to the shortage is, quite frankly, irrelevant. Replace N95 with any other product under any other set of circumstances, and the expectation for retail buyers to reserve capacity for others seems irrational.

To be completely honest, what gooses me most about 'hoarder' complaints is that it comes across as sore losers. It was a race for a limited supply. .Gov and hospitals had every advantage and failed to act when they should have. Crying now about those that were smarter, faster, and more agile, doesn't change these facts. There were plenty of us back in January and February warning everyone "GET READY TIME IS SHORT". It was met with ridicule and often contempt. Personally, I bought more masks than I though I would need, figuring neighbors and family may get caught without. But that was my initiative, something I would do on my own, without being guilted or shamed.

I live in BFE and will likely never use them (though wife obviously will). Regardless, I bought them (I didn't steal them, or guilt someone into giving them to me) and they are mine to do with as I see fit. I feel for the HCWs - I'm married to one. But I did my due diligence and made sure I had enough for my entire family. Those that didn't, or those that relied on others to do it for them, well...
 

erkme73

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This doc may be a lucky one. In a couple weeks, when the ER is overwhelmed and other docs are sick or dead from the disease, folks like him will have their pick of positions as hospitals clamor for docs, nurses, and other workers.

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That's a good way of looking at it. Though, the MD community is small and clique-ey. Upset the wrong person, and you have a very hard time to find work again. Especially now when so many smaller hospitals and groups are being swallowed up through mergers and acquisitions.
 

Old Timer

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It's been reported it they cause heart and nerve damage: Why Trump is at odds with his medical experts over Covid-19 drugs - STAT
I have been on hydroxychloroquine since 1989 with no problems.
Long term, if your dosage is too high, it starts to build up in your eyes and clouds your vision. If this happens, it is reversible by lowering the dose. An eye Dr appt every year will find this quick enough.

My question is, will people already on it have less symptoms and shorter recovery?
 
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