Why the retreat from 1/1.8" sensors in the latest Dahua bullet cameras?

wtimothyholman

wtimothyholman

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Nov 25, 2016
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I've installed a couple of Amcrest IP8M-2957E mini-bullet cameras with 1/1.8" sensors, and I've been very pleased with the resolution and nighttime color performance on both of them. This camera is the equivalent of the Dahua IPC-HFW1831E which is now EOL, so I began looking through the latest Dahua cameras to see if I could find a newer model as an upgrade to another camera in my system.

I was surprised to learn that Dahua isn't putting a 1/1.8" sensor in its latest mini-bullet models. For example, the IPC-HFW4831E has a 1/2.5" STARVIS sensor. Of course, size isn't everything, especially as the technology used to make the sensor may have changed, but I'm a bit puzzled about this. Is the current 1/2.5" sensor better than the previous 1/1.8" sensor in the older model? Or is Dahua cutting corners on the newer cameras to reduce costs? Does anyone have any insight on these questions?

I should also mention that I already have a Dahua IPC-HFW4830E camera, which has a 1/2.5" STARVIS sensor, so I'm well aware of what it can do compared to the cameras with the 1/1.8" sensor. I'd still prefer the larger sensor, based on what I've observed between my different cameras.
 
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wtimothyholman said:
I've installed a couple of Amcrest IP8M-2957E mini-bullet cameras with 1/1.8" sensors, and I've been very pleased with the resolution and nighttime color performance on both of them. This camera is the equivalent of the Dahua IPC-HFW1831E which is now EOL, so I began looking through the latest Dahua cameras to see if I could find a newer model as an upgrade to another camera in my system.

I was surprised to learn that Dahua isn't putting a 1/1.8" sensor in its latest mini-bullet models. For example, the IPC-HFW4831E has a 1/2.5" STARVIS sensor. Of course, size isn't everything, especially as the technology used to make the sensor may have changed, but I'm a bit puzzled about this. Is the current 1/2.5" sensor better than the previous 1/1.8" sensor in the older model? Or is Dahua cutting corners on the newer cameras to reduce costs? Does anyone have any insight on these questions?

I should also mention that I already have a Dahua IPC-HFW4830E camera, which has a 1/2.5" STARVIS sensor, so I'm well aware of what it can do compared to the cameras with the 1/1.8" sensor. I'd still prefer the larger sensor, based on what I've observed between my different cameras.
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Hi @wtimothyholman

I believe it has a lot to do with the Pandemic and interruption to the Supply Chain. I suspect Dahua and others had an interruption to their imaging chip supply.
 
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SyconsciousAu said:
Because it comes at a more attractive price point.

Dahua has always had a bunch of cameras at different price points. The 1.1/8" sensor is the current flagship with a price tag to match. It's prohibitive for a lot of people, and, if you have enough light, unnecessary.
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That would make sense if it weren't for the fact that Dahua was selling mini-bullet cameras with 1/1.8" sensors for well under $200 just a couple of years ago. The Amcrest models I bought were $129 each.

I'm more inclined to agree with @mat200, that supply chain difficulties may be forcing Dahua to use older sensors in their current model line. I think I'm going to sit tight on my camera upgrade for a few more months and see if the 1/1.8" sensors come back.
 
Could it involve the US technology export restrictions that came into place about a year ago?
 
bigredfish said:
I think it’s just normal product level differentiation. I mean why don’t they use 1/1.8” in ALL of their cameras? Same as lots of products.
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Not sure I agree. Why bring out newer mid to higher end cameras with inferior sensors such as the TIOCs? It doesn't make sense. We seem to be going towards sticking LED's on the front instead of using more sensitive sensors. eg the 5442 variant. I think it's a retrograde step. How many people want led's on the front? Personally, I'm not convinced the pictures as good as from a more sensitive sensor, it highlights the camera which may result in a burglar taking it out when it would otherwise go un-noticed or be ignored, an led has limited illumination range and if made stronger unless daylight, will add a colour cast to the picture.

There is a use for cameras such as TIOCS and for me that might be driveways or inside school / office corridors where the scare factor of a strobe in addition to an LED, may prove useful in stopping a crime and making skittish criminals flee before it really gets going. The led may provide some additional light. Mine is definately going on my driveway where the strobe and siren will provide a good deterrent.

I fully understand the use of smaller sensors on the budget end of the line ups, the sub $100 cameras as there you expect some compromise, but to put them on the mid to high end range of cameras costing $150+ doesn't make sense to me unless it's company cost cutting. If I were a purchaser in the market, all Dahua will achieve is to drive me away to the competition. Size is king, we know that . I believe they're cutting their own throat doing this. The only excuse is supply as Matt said, but I don't see it because surely the whole camera is designed around the sensor size, so simply putting in a different size sensor due to supply, isn't as simple as simply dropping a new sensor in, so surely if they desogned a new camera, it's been designed from the bottom up for that sensor.
 
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As are the cameras that don’t have the 1/1.8” (designed around the sensor)

How many cameras have they changed the sensor that originally came with 1/1.8 to a smaller one?

HiK, Axis and others do the same thing.

As to the LEDs, it just makes sense. Regardless of how big the sensor is, the camera still needs light. I see gobs of folks here wanting to run “night color” even with 5442s, where they simply don’t have enough white light to make it work. As soon as there’s any motion the image goes to shit.

Unfortunately the marketing race for “night color” cameras has a lot of newbies convinced these cameras can see color in total darkness.

I run supplemental light in lots of places. For some, the LEDs make as much sense as adding external white light. Not my cup of tea, but I can see situations where I may have no other means to get light there that it may be a good option.
 
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I agree they have a place. See my comment above (edited to add some extra opinion based on my TIOC thread). However, the amount of light provided by the LED really isn't that great. Take a look at my tongue in cheek thoughts on the TIOCS. It definately raises the light and helps but 2 factors to bear in mind from that, the amount of extra light is small at least at the recommended 50% setting, and the area filmed was very small and confined - about 10 feet from the camera and only 6 foot wide with white walls which no doubt caused some reflected light boosting the effect. The non led vs led was filmed in daylight but in poor daylight conditons (very dark overcast rainy day) in a narrow hallway restricting light levels. I have to wonder how much of an effect of clarity having a light source so close to the lens will have. Maybe I should make a night time video in pitch dark to compare with and without in near 0 lux conditions. Unfortunately atm I have no spare time, but I will see what I can do going forward. Personally, I would still prefer a sensitive camera and separate floodlights as then you can control both the level of light and it's location relative to the camera.
 
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Here's an older clip I forgot I had. This was testing the CVI version of the turret with built-in LED's.

I go from no light >>to camera LED's >>to my porch light.
Its a tough spot due to that narrow hallway. I like to see color at the front door so the camera LED's provide an acceptable backup for times when the regular white light doesnt activate for some reason.


(remember to switch youtube layer to 1080p)
 
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My old thread seems relevant as well.

Is this Peak IP Camera?

I'm starting to get the feeling that we've hit the peak of the IP camera market. We've had some pretty huge jumps in performance in about the last 6 years. Common resolution went from 0.3MP to 4MP. Built-in infrared emitters that match the camera's ability to resolve an object at distance are...
ipcamtalk.com ipcamtalk.com
 
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I noticed the phase out of 1/1.8" sensors also and was confused why. The only two reasons that make sense to me (and also mentioned above) is:

1) Supply chain issues. Maybe covid related? Are other camera mfgs doing the same?

2) Sales and price point issues. This seems less likely as clearly there is a market for max technical performance. Is Dahua having to price compete with all of their product lines and the 1/1.8" sensor is breaking the COG targets?

The 1/2.8" starlight sensor being good enough doesn't make sense to me for a few reasons. While we all know very high resolution doesn't get you much (and often less), (1) there is marketing value to the average customer, (2) eventually lens manufacturing will improve to take advantage of resolving ability so why not make the bigger sensor standard, and (3) with the higher resolution you need more light gathering ability or pixel sensitivity suffers which you can improve with a physically bigger sensor. Another reason is there are many applications where higher shutter speed is needed to avoid night-time blur, and pixel noise issues get improved with a physically bigger and/or more sensitive sensor. There are definitely cost increase consideration with having to use/integrate a bigger (more light gathering) lens. A better sensor is better bang for buck.

Even if TiOC is the direction they're going, a bigger sensor still makes sense from a technical standpoint. There are only good technical reasons to use the bigger sensor. The only driving factor I can imagine is cost.
 
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I’m sure cost is a factor, that’s part of product level differentiation. Every single camera manufacture does this. Not unlike computer CPU’s.

I personally won’t buy another camera without the 1/1.8 sensor, but I knowingly pay a premium for that.

I guess I’m not clear on what models used to have a 1/1.8 and now don’t?
 
Larger sensor needs a better lens = higher costs, higher resolution needs better SOC = higher costs. Any other manufacturer that gives away a 1/1.8" sensor 4MP cam for $150? From Axis you'll get the junction box and a (short) network cable for this price. What do we expect? $50 4k@60fps galaxy light+++?
 
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chaosengine said:
Larger sensor needs a better lens = higher costs, higher resolution needs better SOC = higher costs. Any other manufacturer that gives away a 1/1.8" sensor 4MP cam for $150? From Axis you'll get the junction box and a (short) network cable for this price. What do we expect? $50 4k@60fps galaxy light+++?
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Hikvision is selling their new 4 MP 1/1.8" sensor ColorVu camera (DS-2CD2047G1-L) for about $175 if you buy it from an OEM reseller. And until a few months ago, Dahua was selling similar cameras at similar price points.

Something changed on Dahua's end. It's not as if cameras at this price point and with these specs have never existed. A year ago, Dahua was selling them. Hikvision still is.
 
1831E/2831T-ZAS SOC wasn't a high-flyer:

"...very often there is lost video for a second or 3 at time of motion detection. quite annoying."

IPC-HFW1831E broken image

It's Dahua's own SOC (processor=DH7200), developed for their car project. Now they use Hisilicon SOCs and I guess they are more expensive but no more glitches. If you want 4k 1/1.8" for cheap, search for IPC-HFW4833F-ZAS on aliexpress, same DH7200 SOC and not the best lens used but they work, bullet, have a built-in mic. I've two of them - $120. Chinese firmware, Chrome translates to your favorite language.
 
bigredfish said:
I personally won’t buy another camera without the 1/1.8 sensor, but I knowingly pay a premium for that.
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Four years ago I went with Chinese Market only cameras with the 1/3" sensor. I've not been entirely impressed with their quality control. I've now had several die on me, whilst others are still going strong There's really no rhyme or reason to it. Progressively replacing with English market 1/1.8" sensors and the difference is chalk and cheese. Like you Big Red I can't justify not using the 1/1.8" sensor. There is value for me in paying that premium, and compared to 4 years ago, the price difference between a Chinese only market camera, and a supported English Camera, is not what I would consider a lot any more.
 
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