PTZ dome vs 2 camera's in a small but "deep" stable?

[aadje93]

My situation is as follows;

We have a commerical horse stable where people rent a "box" (indiviual stable for the horse) and they can use our facilities. To have a overview i mounted a 4mm camera (8mp colorvu from hik, the 1/1,2" so pretty good night shots with their internal LED). But on second thoughts, that white led during the night isn't great for the horses. I use a turret model currently.

Currently i'm using a 4mm (portrait mode) 8MP colorvu so i can see almost under the cam all the way to the entry way ~30m away. The walking path is only like 3m wide, and i don't need to see the horses, thats why i'm using it in portrait mode.

But now i'm thinking, adding a ~32mm varifocal (bullet) to show the entry way full resolution with IR camera will look weird due to 2 cameras above each other. And the bullet will be way bigger then the turret model.

So how about a dome PTZ.
Its indoor,with windows lower then the camera, so sun glare is impossible. Hik makes models with a center and 2 sides in the dome to seperate the IR from the dome part covering the lens. So virtually no IR backflash due to the dome. And due to internal PTZ (and pretty easy tracking as its default will be right in front of it allways in view)

so my questions;
1. what would you do? 2 cameras above each other (looks weird as they face nearly the same direction, but only bullet option >4mm). Or a dome PTZ and use the current 4mm somewhere else (you never have enough IPcams )

2. Would it be possible to make a "day time/opening hours " schedule to not track but just be a overview cam, and be on min focal length (4mm or less) and have it at "closing time" automatically zoom in to cover the entry point, and start zooming to lower focal length if somebody walks in front of it to keep them fully in view?
3. If auto tracking is not possible in a speeddome, would it be possible to just go "zoomed in" mode during the closing hours, and stay a 4mm during the day hours like i can now schedule day/night settings for image according to the (NTP) clock.



Or am i now asking technology that's not ready yet .

 

[mat200]

My situation is as follows;

We have a commerical horse stable where people rent a "box" (indiviual stable for the horse) and they can use our facilities. To have a overview i mounted a 4mm camera (8mp colorvu from hik, the 1/1,2" so pretty good night shots with their internal LED). But on second thoughts, that white led during the night isn't great for the horses. I use a turret model currently.

Currently i'm using a 4mm (portrait mode) 8MP colorvu so i can see almost under the cam all the way to the entry way ~30m away. The walking path is only like 3m wide, and i don't need to see the horses, thats why i'm using it in portrait mode.

But now i'm thinking, adding a ~32mm varifocal (bullet) to show the entry way full resolution with IR camera will look weird due to 2 cameras above each other. And the bullet will be way bigger then the turret model.

So how about a dome PTZ.
Its indoor,with windows lower then the camera, so sun glare is impossible. Hik makes models with a center and 2 sides in the dome to seperate the IR from the dome part covering the lens. So virtually no IR backflash due to the dome. And due to internal PTZ (and pretty easy tracking as its default will be right in front of it allways in view)

so my questions;
1. what would you do? 2 cameras above each other (looks weird as they face nearly the same direction, but only bullet option >4mm). Or a dome PTZ and use the current 4mm somewhere else (you never have enough IPcams )

2. Would it be possible to make a "day time/opening hours " schedule to not track but just be a overview cam, and be on min focal length (4mm or less) and have it at "closing time" automatically zoom in to cover the entry point, and start zooming to lower focal length if somebody walks in front of it to keep them fully in view?
3. If auto tracking is not possible in a speeddome, would it be possible to just go "zoomed in" mode during the closing hours, and stay a 4mm during the day hours like i can now schedule day/night settings for image according to the (NTP) clock.



Or am i now asking technology that's not ready yet .

I'd try to keep the lights down for the horses better health at night ..

Good questions .. perhaps good to do a test A/B on a couple of stables and ask your customers which they prefer ..

 

[samplenhold]

It all depends on what your purpose of having the cams is. You are saying you do not need to watch the horses, ok. You want to zoom in to the doorway after hours. So are you trying to get good shots on faces for ID purposes after closing but do not care about that during open hours?

The options on how the PTZ runs will be model dependent. I have a few Dahua PTZ domes in my house and they can run a tour, but not autotrack. I have never looked into that functionality for a dome as I do not need it. But I would expect that it is available for more expensive cams.

I have no issues with two cams above each other. This is a business and put as many as you want inside. Heck I have six watching my front door of my home and I do not care what people think.

When people enter, do they turn on a light? If so why bother with the cam mounted LED?

 

[aadje93]

Hi, maybe I wasn't very clear. English is not my main language.

In the daytime hours I have very good view as there are cams right above the opening watching the outside area and most of the day there are customers around which will notice strangers and talk to them what they want on our property or if they have any business on our property (gotta love Dutch people ) , but indoors its less of a concern during daytime to identify a face as I recognize every customer 20m away, and can ask them if they saw somebody. Only during night time the colorvu won't work as good as I was hoping with light coming from the overhead door at the end of the stables that is always open, it's a 4x3m gap where light comes in.

When we close down the stables during the night the first horse is right next to the door, 30m away from the camera, and the cam above the door is around 3.5m height as overview outdoors.

I also considered putting a IR dome with 32mm above the turret to look to the door day and night to Realy pinpoint incoming people, but 2 cams just looks weird in my opinion, then people Realy notice they are being watched during the day. As single dome is all ready less intruding then a turret... That's why my thought of a ptz dome came in which could be zoomed in during night. And just be a overview during daytime.

 

[samplenhold]

Thirty meters away from the cam and you need a good face shot, day and night. You are going to need a good lens. Below are two shots from two different cams in two different positions and the subject is about 30m from the cams. Click on the pics to see the full sized images.

This first shot is from a Dahua B5442E-Z4E. This has a 4MP sensor that is 1/1.8" in size and is an 8-32mm varifocal bullet cam. The lens is set to 27mm for this shot. It has good IR at night, but I do not have an example of that as I have plenty of light and keep it in color at night.


This next shot is from a Dahua HFW5241E-Z12E. This has a 2MP sensor that is 1/2.8" in size and is an 5-60mm varifocal bullet cam. The lens is set to 52mm for this shot. It has very good IR at distance at night, but I do not have an example to show as it is used for LPR and will not pick up a face at night.


As you cam see at 30m from the cam, even the 52mm is not ideal for a good face shot to identify someone. Even if you think that these example are good enough for your use, I have never seen a dome PTZ with that large a zoom lens. You probably would need a larger full sized PTZ cam.

 

[aadje93]

@samplenhold thanks for your extended explnatation, i found a dome which is reasonable priced but 1/2.8" unfortunatly, but does have 120mm max focal length with the optical zoom. Its the Hikvision DS-2DE4A225IW-DE But the 2.8 is realy holding me back. A 2MP in 1/1.8 is so clear at total darkness i saw it at somebody else's place But those PTZ's are either huge, and better placed outdoor for that money.

I also am considering placing a dome right at the entry point, at 2m height, its right under the 2 "overlookers/spotters" which probarly will be aided by a outdoor PTZ in the future as they are both 4mm models back to back to give almost 180° view in 2x 8MP 1.2 models. But mounted ~3m high so not the greatest DORI setup

 

[samplenhold]

I am not familiar with HIK cams so I can't help much on that. But I would not let the sensor size of 1/2.8" be a deal breaker. Many 2MP cams use that sensor and are just fine cams. We always say that the sensor size is the most important part of the cam, but that just means to get the proper sensor for the use case in hand.

Since you are not going to have enough light at night to keep the cam in color mode anyway, then you are really interested in how well it will perform at night in B&W with IR. According to the specs, this is a 2MP cam and the IR distance is 50m, so you should be good at 30m. It does have Smart Tracking/Auto Tracking.

 

[samplenhold]

In addition, height for IDing a face is relative to the distance. You are really interested in the angle not so much the height. If the cam is far away and can be zoomed into the area, then being a little high is OK. You are still getting a somewhat face-on look. See the figure below. The high angle is seeing the top of the head, not the face. The lower angle is seeing lees of the top of the head and more of the face.

 

[Mike A.]

The lower angle is seeing lees of the top of the head and more of the face.

And more of a view out to the horizon vs down to the ground for everything else.

 

[aadje93]

I understand the angle part, noticing it now realy with the 4mm's being above the doorway, so when people are about 15m away you can see their faces pretty well, but the 4mm isn't enough then. Thats why i'm realy considering the mini PTZ dome with zoomed in "parking" on entry, and maybe a trigger on a spotter somwhere else in the stables to zoom out if somebody found another way in (which is possible, but guarded also with cams right next to the doors).

I see Dahua being very popular around here, are they better sensors generally then hik? My local dealer strongly advises Hik due them being better electronics over material of cam itself (Like the sales rep said, a non IK cam either plastic base or metal base will both get destroyed when smashed with a wood or metal piece)

 

[Mike A.]

The cams/sensors/image processing generally are equivalent. Some a little better in various ways to either side for specific models but overall Dahua tends to get you more cam for the money I think. He likely favors Hikvision more because that's what he sells vs any difference in electronics.

 

[aadje93]

They sell HIk, dahua and foscam mainly, but also Axis, Bosch and a couple more. HIk/Dahua/Foscam mostly for smaller sites/self installers.

Also a secondary question, can i mount a PTZ on its "side" or will it get confused, like a dome mounted to a wall with a junction box underneath it instead of a top down mounting bracket to mount it to a wall.

I'm now thinking, if i go PTZ route, why not place it in the (99% allways open) position on the big overhead door which goes inside the stable, and has a double brick wall in front of it, so it has room infront of the door if its closed, then on a corner bracket on the open side so it can view 270° around technically, only the mounting point it won't see. But it can also see fully indoors as the stables are adjacent to the entry way, only like 10cm wall between the stables and the entryway big opening, so no hiding spots there. And then the PTZ can look the whole outside area too, but needs to be placed bit higher for it to not be to easy to grab (entry way is like 3,5m height so can be place just under the opening.

Or do PTZ's realy get confused if they are mounted with their butt straight to a wall instead of "haning" the classic way you see domes too in city centers? (probarly ptz domes too)

 

[samplenhold]

Like @Mike A. stated, both HIK and Dahua are very good cams and I doubt that one is much different than the other as a brand. Now to compare specific cams from each vendor, that is a different story. Of course you can find a specific cam from one brand that is better than a specific cam by the other, but are you really comparing apples to apples?

We have here at IPCAMTALK a member (Andy) that is a reseller of Dahua and HIK (I think) cams. They come with English firmware, not hacked Chinese firmware. The prices are very reasonable and would be less than retail prices in country. He does ship to the EU. His ID here is @EMPIRETECANDY and many, many folks here have purchased from him. All 20+ Dahua cams that I use have come from him. I am very happy with his product and service.

I do not know if that PTZ cam would get 'confused' by mounting it vertical. I seem to remember reading somewhere that this is NOT recommended, though I don't remember why.

 

[sebastiantombs]

The bearing surface of a PTZ are designed for vertical mounting, the camera itself being vertical, not horizontal mounting. No telling how long they'd last or how quickly they'd jam up.

 

[aadje93]

As it's business expense its easier if I buy from EU seller.

I will look into dahua and hik models. 2.8" 2mp isn't bad?

 

[wittaj]

As it's business expense its easier if I buy from EU seller.

I will look into dahua and hik models. 2.8" 2mp isn't bad?

All of my "money" shots that got perps arrested and my neighbors stuff back was from a 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor at a distance.

 

[samplenhold]

I will look into dahua and hik models. 2.8" 2mp isn't bad?

Again, it depends on the situation. Using IR at night on a 1/2.8" 2MP sensor should be fine. Using it in color will depend on how much light there is. See the two shots below. They are from a few years ago when I had a Dahua HDW5231R-ZE cam covering my driveway. That is a turret cam with a 1/2.8" 2MP sensor varifocal lens set at about 7mm. There is plenty of light. Both these guys were identified by the police and I know for a fact that the second one was arrested.

 

[aadje93]

Thank you both for your information.

The current 1/1.2" 8MP looks pretty good with artificial light, but off course i can't say for sure. Blue Iris definitly degrades the direct to disc footage from H265 -> H264 re-encoding when showing it. So i'm a bit in doubt if i should revert to H264 on the cams to play the BVR files directly in VLC for better image quality instead of the BI console on a remote "stuffed away" machine somewhere in a dark place of the property

 

[sebastiantombs]

Overall H264H will produce the best video with Dahua cameras. The amount of disk space saved by H265 is usually quite minimal and not really significant. H265 used large blocks to look for motion versus H26 which uses smaller blocks. This results in degradation of video and can also lead to missed motion triggers.

 

[wittaj]

This will explain H264 versus H265 a little better.

H265 in theory provides more storage as it compresses differently, but part of that compression means it macro blocks big areas of the image that it thinks isn't moving. However, it also takes more processing power of the already small CPU in the camera and that can be problematic if someone is maxing out the camera and then it stutters.

In theory it is supposed to need 30% less storage than H264, but most of us have found it isn't that much. Mine was less than few minutes per day. And to my eye and others that I showed clips to and just said do you like video 1 or video 2 better, everyone thought the H264 provided a better image.

The left image is H264, so all the blocks are the same size corresponding to the resolution of the camera. H265 takes areas that it doesn't think has motion and makes them into bigger blocks and in doing so lessens the resolution yet increases the CPU demand to develop these larger blocks.

In theory H265 is supposed to need half the bitrate because of the macroblocking. But if there is a lot of motion in the image, then it becomes a pixelated mess. The only way to get around that is a higher bitrate. But if you need to run the same bitrate for H265 as you do H264, then the storage savings is zero. Storage is computed based on multiplying bitrate, FPS, and resolution.

In my testing I have one camera that sees a parked car in front of my house. H265 sees that the car isn't moving, so it macroblocks the whole car and surrounding area. Then the car owner walked up to the car and got in and the motion is missed because the macroblock being so large. Or if it catches it, because the bitrate is low, it is a pixelated mess during the critical capture point and by the time H265 adjusts to there is now motion, the ideal capture is missed.

In my case, the car is clear and defined in H264, but is blurry and soft edges in H265.

H265 is one of those theory things that sounds good, but reality use is much different.

As always, YMMV. But do not use Codec with BI or you may have trouble.