Adding a 2nd router to a 32 camera system

T

tjlmbklr

n3wb
Jan 19, 2023
12
3
Milwaukee, WI USA
Hello, n00b here and first time poster. I have basic networking skills, enough to be dangerous as they say. To my friends I am an IT guru so I try to help them where I can on their struggling business. A few months back they bought a 32 camera system from Lorex. The model they got was the N882 Series. This system is your basic 16 camera NVR and an added 16 port PoE switch. The issue is the front office where the IPS modem and their router is is about 300' away from where the PoE and remaining 16 cameras will go. My goal for them is to add a 2nd router with wifi so they can not only have internet (< internet only) in the back building but to have it and the PoE switch all on the same network. According to Lorex this (see pic) is how they recommend connecting the PoE to the mix, but how should I connect 2nd router? It was a lot of work to run a data LAN cable back to that front building and I am trying to avoid running a 2nd one. Can I use a port on the PoE for the 2nd router or can I run that LAN (from front building) to the 2nd router, then feed the PoE switch off that same router to then start connecting the remaining 16 cameras?

Thank you in advance!

Screenshot 2023-01-19 134707.png
 
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TonyR said:
Assuming you're talking about adding a wireless router, first convert it to a wireless AP (Access Point) and let the existing router on the LAN assign IP's.
If the router to be added has an "AP" function, select that.
If not, assigned the added router's LAN a unique, static IP in the same subnet as the existing router's LAN and disable it's DHCP server; this will make it a dumb AP and the LAN's router will continue to hand out the IP's via its DHCP server.
Run the LAN port of the 2nd router to a port on the POE switch.
Click to expand...
Thank you, this is kind of what I was thinking as well.
 
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Not really clear what you are proposing.
But, some thoughts.
You do NOT want camera traffic running through a router.
You do NOT want any camera traffic running over WiFi for a whole host of reasons.

You have an network cable all ready ran to the remote location.
So purchase a new 8port gigabyte switchs. I suggest Netgear Prosafe models.
See diagram.

Use either a real access point or a router setup as tony explains about.
Untitled document.png
 
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I accidentally deleted my own post! DOH!
Any way, here's what I said:

"1) Assuming you're talking about adding a wireless router, first convert it to a wireless AP (Access Point) and let the existing router on the LAN assign the IP's.​
If the router to be added has an "AP" function, select that.​
If not, assign the added router's LAN a unique, static IP in the same subnet as the existing router's LAN and disable its DHCP server; this will make it a dumb AP and the existing LAN's router will continue to hand out the IP's via its DHCP server.​
2) You can run the LAN port of the added router to a port on the POE switch, as long as the added router and the existing router are all on the same subnet."​

EDIT: the only issue I see with this is the cameras having Internet access and also likely acessible by anyone that get's on your LAN via the Wi-Fi.
I'd consider a managed switch and put the cams on their on VLAN and block them from the Internet.
 
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looney2ns said:
Not really clear what you are proposing.
But, some thoughts.
You do NOT want camera traffic running through a router.
You do NOT want any camera traffic running over WiFi for a whole host of reasons.

You have an network cable all ready ran to the remote location.
So purchase a new 8port gigabyte switchs. I suggest Netgear Prosafe models.
See diagram.

Use either a real access point or a router setup as tony explains about.
View attachment 151410
Click to expand...
Thank you. No, I have no intention of running any cameras through the wifi router.
 
TonyR said:
I accidentally deleted my own post! DOH!
Any way, here's what I said:

"1) Assuming you're talking about adding a wireless router, first convert it to a wireless AP (Access Point) and let the existing router on the LAN assign the IP's.​
If the router to be added has an "AP" function, select that.​
If not, assign the added router's LAN a unique, static IP in the same subnet as the existing router's LAN and disable its DHCP server; this will make it a dumb AP and the existing LAN's router will continue to hand out the IP's via its DHCP server.​
2) You can run the LAN port of the added router to a port on the POE switch, as long as the added router and the existing router are all on the same subnet."​

EDIT: the only issue I see with this is the cameras having Internet access and also likely acessible by anyone that get's on your LAN via the Wi-Fi.
I'd consider a managed switch and put the cams on their on VLAN and block them from the Internet.
Click to expand...
This is precisely what I want to do; utilize the one LAN I have running from the source router in the front office and have wifi (for internet only) and the rest of the cameras connected via the provided PoE switch.
 
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The diagram you posted in the OP, would have the cameras on the POE switch running through the original router to get to the NVR, you don't want that, hence why I suggested the new switch.
 
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looney2ns said:
Not really clear what you are proposing.
But, some thoughts.
You do NOT want camera traffic running through a router.
You do NOT want any camera traffic running over WiFi for a whole host of reasons.

You have an network cable all ready ran to the remote location.
So purchase a new 8port gigabyte switchs. I suggest Netgear Prosafe models.
See diagram.

Use either a real access point or a router setup as tony explains about.
View attachment 151410
Click to expand...
Can I ask, what is the purpose of needed the 'New Switch' you have listed coming off of the Router? Is there a reason I can use the active ports (1-4) on the router to feed the NVR then to the PoE at the remote location? That is how Lorex has it shown in their diagram. Only question I have is my wireless AP that you show coming off the Remote PoE switch, what port do I feed that off of on that?

Screenshot 2023-01-19 134707.png
 
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tjlmbklr said:
Can I ask, what is the purpose of needed the 'Mew Switch' you have listed coming off of the Router? Is there a reason I can use the active ports (1-4) on the router to feed the NVR then to the PoE at the remote location?
Click to expand...
The switch portion of routers are not known for their ability to handle gobs of bandwidth. The drawing shows that the video stream (data) from cams on the POE switch will have to pass through that router's switch to get to the NVR, creating a bottleneck in the router.

tjlmbklr said:
Only question I have is my wireless AP that you show coming off the Remote PoE switch, what port do I feed that off of on that?
Click to expand...
Any open POE port...if the POE switch is truly 802.3af/at compliant, it won't output any voltage to damage the non-POE AP.
 
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Cameras connected to Wifi routers (even if the camera are hardwired) are problematic for surveillance systems because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your entire system.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent, especially once you start adding distance. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a camera connected to a router and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.

I tried an old router because the internet says if you turn off the wifi and don't connect internet to it, it works as a plain ole switch. It may for web browsing and that sort of thing, but not for the constant demand without breaks that these cameras need. Only had problems with the cameras on that stretch of the system until I replaced it with a real unmanaged switch.
 
Just do what Tony proposes.
keep it simple
but If motherfuckers start streaming netflix and Hulu from that NEW wifi Ap point, and playing fucking Minecraft......it could backfire.
 
wittaj said:
Cameras connected to Wifi routers (even if the camera are hardwired) are problematic for surveillance systems because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your entire system.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent, especially once you start adding distance. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a camera connected to a router and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.

I tried an old router because the internet says if you turn off the wifi and don't connect internet to it, it works as a plain ole switch. It may for web browsing and that sort of thing, but not for the constant demand without breaks that these cameras need. Only had problems with the cameras on that stretch of the system until I replaced it with a real unmanaged switch.
Click to expand...
I'll edit my post as I think a lot of answers are thinking I want to use the wifi router for cameras, I only want it for internet.
 
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No, we recognize that you do not have wifi cameras, but what you are saying is that the hardwired cameras will be connected to POE switch that is connected to the wifi router for internet.

You said in your edited post "My goal for them is to add a 2nd router with wifi so they can not only have internet (< internet only) in the back building but to have it and the PoE switch all on the same network." and in another post "utilize the one LAN I have running from the source router in the front office and have wifi (for internet only) and the rest of the cameras connected via the provided PoE switch" That is the cameras going thru the router.

That is considered having the cameras go thru the router, even if the router is not "routing" the cameras. If point A is the cameras and Point B is the NVR and the router is anywhere in between them on the same line, that is considered going thru the router. Plus that then brings up the whole potential of exposing the network to cameras that can talk to the internet.

While not exactly the same issue as it is BI and not an NVR, they are both a VMS system and the results would be the same, but here is a thread from yesterday where someone had a similar setup (POE switch with hardwired cameras connected to the router (thus going thru the router) and when the router lost internet, he lost the cameras as well even though the router wasn't routing the traffic.

BI Doesn't Record when Router is Down

I have an issue with my router where it shuts itself down about 1x/day. This is annoying, but it's covered under warranty, and I'll have a replacement in place in a couple of days.. Meantime, I'm seeing an unexpected side effect where, if the router is down, BI doesn't record. You can see gaps...
ipcamtalk.com ipcamtalk.com
 
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tjlmbklr said:
I'll edit my post as I think a lot of answers are thinking I want to use the wifi router for cameras, I only want it for internet.
Click to expand...
That is understood, I'm pretty sure.
It's the video stream from the cams via the POE switch you don't want passing through the router to get to the NVR; connectthe POE switch to the NVR or as depicted in @looney2ns 's drawing
 
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@wittaj
hes not go thru a 2nd router.
just adding one to act as a wifi repeater to an open port on the far away POE switch.
 
I was born in Milwaukee.
Maybe I speak MilwaukeNET-ese... LOL j/k
 
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Ok 'm off to work.....With your help im sure hell get it sorted out.....
Has anyone mentioned the Ceiling on an NVR using all 32 channels?
@bigredfish
I've heard stories about better results using 80-90% of NVR's capacity to mitigate FPS throttling and Streaming limits.
It's alot of math...im not good at math.....
If you fill every allowable port on some of these NVR's.....there are stories.....
later dudes.
 
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