Alarm Relay Sticking after motion detect

Kymadn

Young grasshopper
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
44
Reaction score
3
Hi Guys i have installed a point to multi point camera system using Cambium Networks wireless links. i have also installed a 12v power supply and storbe light + siren.

For some reason when the camera motion detect alarm activates the relay coil stays energized and the strobe/siren stays on continuosly. To restore the alarm i need to power off/on the 12v power supply. Has anyone else come across this problem?

My camera can handle 300mA on the alarm I/O and my siren and strobe only uses about 200mA. However i thought i would use a relay to play it safe and not overdrive the camera alarm I/O.

I am wondering if i should have a diode installed or perhaps a switching transistor which would turn the relay coil on/off?

I have attached a photo and schematic of my setup.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

awsum140

Known around here
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,254
Reaction score
1,128
Location
Southern NJ
Just for a laugh, check the voltage on the relay when it's not activated. It may be on the "high side" and stay latched once it's energized. You may not have enough load for the camera output which is probably a solid state switch. All just speculation.
 

Kymadn

Young grasshopper
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
44
Reaction score
3
I am not sure what the relay coil voltage is while it is not energized (i would have to check). I do know the resistance of the coil is about 100 ohm. The relay coil current is 150mA while energized which would mean the load current on the camera I/O is 150mA. The relay is a FRC1BA-2

The frustrating thing is that it works without using a relay perfectly. Using the relay cause the alarm to stick on :|
 
Last edited:

danbutter

Getting the hang of it
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
139
Reaction score
47
First thing I thought was relay too.
You may have it wired wrong or using wrong voltages or too much current as already said.
What is the drop away for the relay?
 

Kymadn

Young grasshopper
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
44
Reaction score
3
First thing I thought was relay too.
You may have it wired wrong or using wrong voltages or too much current as already said.
What is the drop away for the relay?
It is 100% wired correctly. It is a 12v relay wired as per my schematic attached in my first post. One side of the coil is held to 12v while the other side of the coil is a switched earth through the camera I/O to the relay coil. I think it is more a problem of the open circuit resistance with no alarm is not completely open circuit keeping the relay energized.
 

TonyR

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
16,711
Reaction score
38,892
Location
Alabama
Does that relay have 4 pins on bottom numbered as you have them in your schematic with 85 & 86 is coil, 30 is relay common and 87 is relay normally open?

Or does it have 5 pins and 5th is labeled 87a?

I ask because your schematic has a 'unfamiliar' depiction of the relay's internal parts near the '87' label. If it's a conventional Bosch-style 5 pin automotive relay, then 87 (N.O.) is possibly jumpered to 87a (N.C.), causing your problem 'latch'.
 

TonyR

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
16,711
Reaction score
38,892
Location
Alabama
It is 100% wired correctly. It is a 12v relay wired as per my schematic attached in my first post. One side of the coil is held to 12v while the other side of the coil is a switched earth through the camera I/O to the relay coil. I think it is more a problem of the open circuit resistance with no alarm is not completely open circuit keeping the relay energized.
Then try a resistor across the coil as suggested by @awsum140.
 

Kymadn

Young grasshopper
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
44
Reaction score
3
Does that relay have 4 pins on bottom numbered as you have them in your schematic with 85 & 86 is coil, 30 is relay common and 87 is relay normally open?

Or does it have 5 pins and 5th is labeled 87a?

I ask because your schematic has a 'unfamiliar' depiction of the relay's internal parts near the '87' label. If it's a conventional Bosch-style 5 pin automotive relay, then 87 (N.O.) is possibly jumpered to 87a (N.C.), causing your problem 'latch'.
Yes sorry the relay i have is 4 pins. So ignore the 87a contact in the schematic. That was just a relay i had available in Microsoft Visio to replicate my design.

The relay contact 30 to 87 is normal open and 87a is not there. It is a standard automotive relay
 

GCoco

Pulling my weight
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Messages
340
Reaction score
116
Location
Louisiana
Are you sure the coil is staying energized? It could be the relay contact cannot break the siren current.
 

Kymadn

Young grasshopper
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
44
Reaction score
3
Are you sure the coil is staying energized? It could be the relay contact cannot break the siren current.
Please explain what you mean by the "relay contact cannot break the siren current?"
 

GCoco

Pulling my weight
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Messages
340
Reaction score
116
Location
Louisiana
The contact does not have enough spring resistance to break the current. The contact out of the NVR may have the issue. Just need to figure out is the coil staying energized or is it deenergized and the relay contact is staying closed.
 

Kymadn

Young grasshopper
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
44
Reaction score
3
The contact does not have enough spring resistance to break the current. The contact out of the NVR may have the issue. Just need to figure out is the coil staying energized or is it deenergized and the relay contact is staying closed.
I will confirm but i believe the coil is de-energized and the relay contact is staying closed? I make this assumption based on the fact that when i turn off the 12v PSU the relay switchs off. Once i plug the 12v psu back in the relay remains off until the next alarm activates and the relay latches on again.

When you say the contact does not have enough spring resistance to break the current does that apply in my situation while i am only powering a siren and led strobe drawing a total of only 200mA through the relay?

Do you have a solution around this problem?

Would a solid state relay be a better option?
 
Last edited:

TonyR

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
16,711
Reaction score
38,892
Location
Alabama
For example if the camera I/O is open circuit it may still have a lower resistance then the resistor.....
Then the I/O is not "open circuit".

....and because the resistor and I/O are both in parallel with the coil it wont take affect.
The I/O is not in parallel with the coil.

If the cam's output is solid state, some solid state outputs require a certain level of gate current to switch off the output, especially SCR's and triacs. If the device being driven by the output does not draw enough current, the output won't switch off, hence the suggestion for the resistor across the coil to increase the amount of current required by the output to operate the coil. Try one with resistance within range of the output's specs; it'll either help or do nothing....what have you got to lose?

Ideally, a R-C network (QuencArc) also called a 'snubber' would do the trick, too.
 
Last edited:

Kymadn

Young grasshopper
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
44
Reaction score
3
Then the I/O is not "open circuit".


The I/O is not in parallel with the coil.

Are we even looking at the same schematic?
Which side of the relay are u talking about having a resistor? Input or output. Can u please draw it on the schematic i provided.

Also my statement about the I/O open circuit is because not all I/O's have a complete open circuit. You may have 5 ohms closed circuit (alarm active) and Open circuit may be 50k ohm.
 
Last edited:

Kymadn

Young grasshopper
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
44
Reaction score
3
I just purchased a 12V solid state relay so i will give that a try in the next day or 2. Its rated at 20mA input and up to 2A output. Should be better then a automotive relay rated at 150mA input and 30A supply. I am only using 200mA for the siren and strobe.

PCB Mount Solid State Relay 12V | Jaycar Electronics
 
Last edited:

alastairstevenson

Staff member
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
15,952
Reaction score
6,786
Location
Scotland
I am wondering if i should have a diode installed or perhaps a switching transistor which would turn the relay coil on/off?
Assuming the alarm I/O of the camera is a solid-state (ie not a relay contact) type of output - your arrangement is flawed:

What's the rated load voltage of the camera alarm I/O output?
Maybe 12v is above what it's rated at, and some current still flows in the 'off' state. There is often a built-in diode to the VCC associated with the output driver. A relay has a 'holding current' lower than the actuation current that would keep it on.
Also - driving a relay coil directly from it with no clamping diode for the inductive switch-off transient from the relay coil is very likely to damage the output transistor.
Much the best arrangement to protect the camera output would be to either connect the relay via an opto-isolator (3v or 5v and will only pull a few mA) and ensure there is a clamp diode on the relay coil.
Or use an opto-isolated relay.
 

J Sigmo

Known around here
Joined
Feb 5, 2018
Messages
997
Reaction score
1,335
Since the output is latching until you remove power, but does always unlatch when power is interrupted, we know that the outputs of the cameras are not blown (shorted), nor are the contacts of your added relay welding closed.

I think it's safe to say that the relay's coil (your relay) is remaining energized, even if only partially, and only unlatches when you remove power from the system.

Do you have any data on what the cameras use for their alarm outputs? Open collector NPN transistors pulling to ground? An actual relay's dry contacts? A PNP that's meant to "source" current from the high-side? We can't troubleshoot this until we know more about the circuitry in the cameras.

It seems unlikely that they'd use a TRIAC for this alarm output unless they intended you to use an AC device for the alarm.

I'd like to see the specifications for the alarm outputs in the cameras.

Also, in your schematic, you have a switch drawn in called "Motion Detect". Is this a separate switch you've installed in series with the alarm outputs of the cameras (which are in parallel) so that you can enable and disable the alarm output? If so, can you "unlatch" the alarm by opening that switch, thus removing the current path through the relay's coil?

Regardless, I would ALWAYS install a "bark back diode", reverse biased, across the coil of any relay or inductive load that you're driving with a solid state device (such as a transistor output that we might have in the cameras).

When the switching device in the camera opens (shuts off), the magnetic field around the solenoid of the relay (or other inductive load) will begin to collapse. As the field collapses, the energy stored in that field will need to go somewhere. And what happens is that the voltage across the coil will rise very high if there is no path for that induced current. That high voltage spike can easily damage transistors or other solid state switches, and even cause burning of relay contacts which can immediately (or eventually) lead to contact welding.

I guess we need more information, especially about the circuitry in the cameras' alarm outputs to really understand what's happening. Substituting a solid state relay for the mechanical relay you have now will eliminate the possible inductive spike issues for the cameras' outputs. But if the alarm siren/strobe is running off of DC, you will need a DC output solid state relay. They make them, but they're a bit less common. If what you have ordered is a typical SSR with a TRIAC or back-to-back SCRs for its output, it will actually perform the same latching function you're getting now!

TRIACs and back-to-back SCRs rely on a zero-crossing of the load current to switch off. They are inherently latching devices. Used with an AC load, they switch off as soon as the gate current is removed AND the load current passes through zero. If the load current doesn't go to zero, then they remain switched on (latched on).

If your alarm siren is a DC device, you can't use a "normal" SSR to drive it or it will latch on and behave just the same way as what you're seeing now (but for a different reason).

Does the camera maker supply a schematic or at least a block diagram or description of what they use for their "alarm" outputs?
 

Kymadn

Young grasshopper
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
44
Reaction score
3
Since the output is latching until you remove power, but does always unlatch when power is interrupted, we know that the outputs of the cameras are not blown (shorted), nor are the contacts of your added relay welding closed.

I think it's safe to say that the relay's coil (your relay) is remaining energized, even if only partially, and only unlatches when you remove power from the system.

Do you have any data on what the cameras use for their alarm outputs? Open collector NPN transistors pulling to ground? An actual relay's dry contacts? A PNP that's meant to "source" current from the high-side? We can't troubleshoot this until we know more about the circuitry in the cameras.

It seems unlikely that they'd use a TRIAC for this alarm output unless they intended you to use an AC device for the alarm.

I'd like to see the specifications for the alarm outputs in the cameras.

Also, in your schematic, you have a switch drawn in called "Motion Detect". Is this a separate switch you've installed in series with the alarm outputs of the cameras (which are in parallel) so that you can enable and disable the alarm output? If so, can you "unlatch" the alarm by opening that switch, thus removing the current path through the relay's coil?

Regardless, I would ALWAYS install a "bark back diode", reverse biased, across the coil of any relay or inductive load that you're driving with a solid state device (such as a transistor output that we might have in the cameras).

When the switching device in the camera opens (shuts off), the magnetic field around the solenoid of the relay (or other inductive load) will begin to collapse. As the field collapses, the energy stored in that field will need to go somewhere. And what happens is that the voltage across the coil will rise very high if there is no path for that induced current. That high voltage spike can easily damage transistors or other solid state switches, and even cause burning of relay contacts which can immediately (or eventually) lead to contact welding.

I guess we need more information, especially about the circuitry in the cameras' alarm outputs to really understand what's happening. Substituting a solid state relay for the mechanical relay you have now will eliminate the possible inductive spike issues for the cameras' outputs. But if the alarm siren/strobe is running off of DC, you will need a DC output solid state relay. They make them, but they're a bit less common. If what you have ordered is a typical SSR with a TRIAC or back-to-back SCRs for its output, it will actually perform the same latching function you're getting now!

TRIACs and back-to-back SCRs rely on a zero-crossing of the load current to switch off. They are inherently latching devices. Used with an AC load, they switch off as soon as the gate current is removed AND the load current passes through zero. If the load current doesn't go to zero, then they remain switched on (latched on).

If your alarm siren is a DC device, you can't use a "normal" SSR to drive it or it will latch on and behave just the same way as what you're seeing now (but for a different reason).

Does the camera maker supply a schematic or at least a block diagram or description of what they use for their "alarm" outputs?
Great response Mate! I am on the same wave length as you. To answer your questions. I am not exactly sure how the camera operates the alarm contact (be it transistor, dry contact or what not). I do know from the camera datasheet, the alarm output is rated at 300mA @12V. Datasheet below link:

http://nl.dahuasecurity.com/download/DH-IPC-HDBW4631E-ASE_datasheet_201707044.pdf

The siren and strobe i am using draws about 150mA - 200mA (total) at 12Vdc.

The solid state relay i sourced operates on an input voltage of 9.6Vdc - 14.4Vdc (20mA max input current). The Load output of the SSR is 3Vdc to 52.8Vdc (max 2A).

Datasheet for SSR below:
https://www.jaycar.com.au/medias/sys_master/images/9103192752158/SY4093-dataSheetMain.pdf

Lastly your question regarding the schematic diagram i have. The switch i have drawn is actually the depiction of the camera alarm NO which would pass the camera ground to the relay during motion detection.

I actually feel pretty confident that this relay is going to work. Otherwise i am tempted to run the siren and strobe direct off the camera alarm as it is still below the max draw current of 300mA as per the camera datasheet.

The mechanical relay i was using has a coil resistance of 100 ohm and the SSR i have has a resistance of 1.4M ohm between input +/-. SSR offers far better isolation. Come to think of it now, i think the camera alarm output might be at 100 ohm closed contact during alarm (which is the same resistance of the mechanical relay coil). That could explain why the mechanical relay is staying on.
 
Last edited:

TonyR

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
16,711
Reaction score
38,892
Location
Alabama
TRIACs and back-to-back SCRs rely on a zero-crossing of the load current to switch off. They are inherently latching devices. Used with an AC load, they switch off as soon as the gate current is removed AND the load current passes through zero. If the load current doesn't go to zero, then they remain switched on (latched on).
Yep.....pretty much as I stated in post #14, above.

Which side of the relay are u talking about having a resistor? Input or output. Can u please draw it on the schematic i provided.
Neither input or output. Instead, stating to place the resistor "across the coil" should suffice.
 
Top