5442 S3 series, weird bitrate issue

If someone is running I-frame at the same level as FPS wastes a lot of bandwidth on full frames (i-frames).
In complex scenes, there may not be enough bandwidth to encode the entire scene into an i-frame.

There is no justification for using i-frames shorter than 2 seconds (2 times of FPS).

The normal CBR algorithm statically divides the bandwidth between i-frames and the remaining difference frames. A fixed separation factor may not work for every scene - that's why there is a Smooth <> Clear slider that allows you to change this factor.

The AI Codec algorithm in the CBR version analyzes the scene and all frames (i-frames, delta frames). As a result of the analysis, it dynamically adjusts the bandwidth division between full frames and difference frames. It notices changes with a delay of several minutes.

An additional feature of the AI Codec algorithm is that it detects people/cars in the scene and informs the video compressor to use higher compression quality for them (than for trees, grass, roads, walls and other elements).

I use AI Codec in different variants (ABR or CBR) on almost all cameras.
Excellent information and a pleasure to read a different perspective on camera settings. I always thought it was odd that people neuter their nice cameras to appease Blue Iris and to get that perfect shot of a "perp". Where the hell do you guys live where there's all these perps running around on a nightly basis? Don't get me wrong, we had a woman murdered at the bottom of my hill so I know things can happen. I have always ran my cameras at full FPS and i-frames at 2X FPS. It eliminates that constant pulsing. I mainly use my cameras for enjoying the beauty of my property and the wild life.......and the occasional murderer. :oops:
 
Excellent information and a pleasure to read a different perspective on camera settings. I always thought it was odd that people neuter their nice cameras to appease Blue Iris and to get that perfect shot of a "perp". Where the hell do you guys live where there's all these perps running around on a nightly basis? Don't get me wrong, we had a woman murdered at the bottom of my hill so I know things can happen. I have always ran my cameras at full FPS and i-frames at 2X FPS. It eliminates that constant pulsing. I mainly use my cameras for enjoying the beauty of my property and the wild life.......and the occasional murderer. :oops:

Many of us don't feel we are neutering the cameras.

Before I got BI I was a FPS snob and ran it at max FPS because I thought higher FPS meant better captures.

Then I found this site and found out about adjusting parameters to get the better shot was more important.

Then when I decided to go the BI route, I adjusted the settings that mattered the most to BI.

Whether I run the camera at 30FPS or 15FPS and iframes equal or double or quadruple, I can take a snapshot and you will not be able to tell the difference between the image taken from the 30FPS or 15FPS settings. The image quality hasn't diminished by lowering the FPS and matching iframes.

But if you are using for wildlife and want the smoother images, go for it.



Now some cameras are better than others, but many of them have low-end processors in them, so although they are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you could max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of every option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.

I'm not saying my analogy of a car redline or MPG is a perfect analogy, but rather I am pointing out a fact that stuff we buy is always marketed as more capable than it is, especially if you are using all of the features. Does your car get its stated MPG in every situation - NO...

Can a little 4 cylinder base model Ford go up an interstate incline of 4% with the air conditioning at full blast at the speed limit - NO. I remember growing up we would have to turn off the AC going up big hills LOL. We called it turbo boost LOL.

1695379939282.png


Do we really believe every marketing claim of every product you see on Amazon?

Just like a computer - it is rated for this and that, but if you are running the CPU at 100%, something is going to give. Same with these little cameras with a lot less computing power.


So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.

Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.

This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.

At the end of the day, if the unknowing consumer wants cameras that can do 30 or 60 FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.

And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in or multiple IVS rules, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.

And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature to make the camera stable...

1701529252646.png




In addition, look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...

Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. As I said, they "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.

In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.
 
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12000 kbit (12 mbit) is 1.5MB/s of written data. In day this is 126,5GB.
Multiple typical 16 cams it's 2TB per day.. Minimum 30 days of storage it's 60TB for 16 cams..
Without snapshots, databases and any copies of footage for AI..

it's not normal for normal installations (bigger houses, some small SMB businesses).
More for this forum and very specific profile of users here...
Well, you're on an "enthusiast"-type forum so that's somewhat to be expected as for any other. And with BI we do various things on the back end to lessen that like running continuous recording with substreams, triggered recording, etc. And I think in most cases here when suggestions are made that's generally properly caveated depending on use-case with considerations for storage and other resource effects.

I currently run 22 cams, a mix of 2MP, mostly 4MP, and several 8MP at various bitrates/FPS depending on purpose. For some I run lower settings. Where I want better quality, I run higher. Other than an odd few, most all cams are running continuous recording. As above, for some I go continuous with substreams. Looking at BI's stats, overall I'm running just under 20,000 kB/s or ~190 MP/s. I end up getting +2 weeks storage on an 18TB drive (including a ton of LPR snapshots, database and system on another drive). I could have saved ~$100 or so by buying a smaller drive and I surely could make that last much, much longer if I wanted but I don't really need to. Practically speaking, storage time is longer than I've ever had to go back and look for something in many years of running cams (typically a few days). Might as well take advantage of it for my case. Again, if objectives/priorities were different, then I'd set up differently.
 
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Many of us don't feel we are neutering the cameras.

Before I got BI I was a FPS snob and ran it at max FPS because I thought higher FPS meant better captures.

Then I found this site and found out about adjusting parameters to get the better shot was more important.

Then when I decided to go the BI route, I adjusted the settings that mattered the most to BI.

Whether I run the camera at 30FPS or 15FPS and iframes equal or double or quadruple, I can take a snapshot and you will not be able to tell the difference between the image taken from the 30FPS or 15FPS settings. The image quality hasn't diminished by lowering the FPS and matching iframes.

But if you are using for wildlife and want the smoother images, go for it.



Now some cameras are better than others, but many of them have low-end processors in them, so although they are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you could max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of every option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.

I'm not saying my analogy of a car redline or MPG is a perfect analogy, but rather I am pointing out a fact that stuff we buy is always marketed as more capable than it is, especially if you are using all of the features. Does your car get its stated MPG in every situation - NO...

Can a little 4 cylinder base model Ford go up an interstate incline of 4% with the air conditioning at full blast at the speed limit - NO. I remember growing up we would have to turn off the AC going up big hills LOL. We called it turbo boost LOL.

1695379939282.png


Do we really believe every marketing claim of every product you see on Amazon?

Just like a computer - it is rated for this and that, but if you are running the CPU at 100%, something is going to give. Same with these little cameras with a lot less computing power.


So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.

Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.

This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.

At the end of the day, if the unknowing consumer wants cameras that can do 30 or 60 FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.

And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in or multiple IVS rules, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.

And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature to make the camera stable...

1701529252646.png




In addition, look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...

Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. As I said, they "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.

In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.
I actually run two of my most important cameras at 15FPS/15 i-frame. It's the two in my home. So I don't doubt your logic and actually use it on a small scale. The difference between you and me is that you want a solid screen capture of a perps face and I want a beautiful smooth flowing video for wildlife and other things. I actually take beautiful still shots all the time with my outdoor cameras.

I find it interesting that these cameras all defualt to max FPS and 2X i-frame. I would think that if this would tax the processor the manufacturer wouldn't want it set like that by default. On the better cameras that we get from Andy I wouldn't think the manufacturer would need to fool the consumer with a a beautiful default image at the price of bad play back recordings. I'd think that logic would be saved for the consumer brand crap.

As far as all the threads where people have jitter in the video and other issues.....it could be caused by the system they are running Blue Iris on. So it would make sense that lowering all the settings fixed their problems.
 
I have 10 cameras running currently on a 6-7 year old NVR 5216-16P-4K2SE

(7) 4MP 5442's and (3) 4KX/T

My settings for all of them
4ksettings.jpg 4MPsettings.jpg

  • I have Two 8TB drives in the NVR- I get 13-14 days recording 24/7 plus Events.
  • I run a BUNCH of IVS rules. Most cameras are running 3-6 IVS rules. One camera is running VideoMetadata - Face/Human/Vehicle/NonMotorvehicle
  • I have no problems with this setup with regard to taxing the NVR or problems with video. I dont have to worry about CPU usage or trimming bitrate or FPS

I think I could probably add 2-3 more before taxing the NVR resources. Actually 4 as I have on occasion connected my two 4MP Amcrest wifi cameras with no trouble, I just dont like what they do to my network when Mrs Bigredfish is streaming TV and Im reviewing cameras and I dont record them on this NVR typically, they have their own.


NVRbitrates.jpg


CPU Temperature: 60℃
Fan:
Mainboard 4320rpm/Normal

2.Display
Main Screen: VGA/HDMI(1920X1080)
Sub Screen: --
Decoding Capability: Normal

3.Storage Info
Total Disk: 2
HDD State: Normal
Disk:
Name Physical Position Disk Temperature Health Status Free Space/Total Space
sda Cabinet_1 31℃ Normal 0.00 MB/7.26 TB
sdb Cabinet_2 35℃ Normal 0.00 MB/7.26 TB
All -- -- -- 0.00 MB/14.52 TB
 
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sorry for taking so long to get back to you guys, i did some experimenting and found using the max bitrate helped on most cameras experiencing the pulsing issue. on one cam though, even on max it did't help. doubling the iframes from 15 to 30 made the pulsing go away (the cam runs at 15fps). not even h265 helped or the smoothing feature.

i always thought frames and iframes have to be equal or else you get worse quality when trying to get a clear snapshot of somebody? this is not the case? even from a distance? not using BI on these cams. just dmss and 5216-ei NVR.

i should be using ai coding? does that only use the highest quality when an ai rule is tripped?

on 1 cam, i did this:
h264,
ai coding,
max resolution,
15fps,
ABR,
max bitrate 10240,
average bitrate 8192,
iframe 2 sec.

are these the best settings? don't want to lose detail of anyone in the distance.
 
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Each camera is different. Used to be back in the 5231 days fps=iframe worked well. I still run it on some 5442s, but newer models I tend to use 2x fps
 
you know what's strange, with the following settings:

h264,
ai coding,
max resolution,
15fps,
ABR,
max bitrate 10240,
average bitrate 8192,
iframe 2 sec.

some cams are actually streaming near 20 megabits! shouldn't they be capped at the max?
 
you know what's strange, with the following settings:

h264,
ai coding,
max resolution,
15fps,
ABR,
max bitrate 10240,
average bitrate 8192,
iframe 2 sec.

some cams are actually streaming near 20 megabits! shouldn't they be capped at the max?

wait one hour and check one more time...
AI coding is reacting with some delay (minimum a few minutes) to analyze generated bitrate and then change slowly compression ratio to fit in configured average bitrate...

that's the beauty of this algorithm - it allows to big jumps in bitrate depending of needs / what is happening in video scene / movement but guaranties day (24 hour) average will fit configured value.

much better that CBR which try to stay at similar bitrate no matter what happens in video scene.
 
The only problem I have with that, and I havent tried it as I have no cameras with it, is that it sounds the same as VBR with respect to waiting for it to spin up bitrate when it decides its time.?
 
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The only problem I jave with that, and I havent tried it as I have no cameras with it, is that it sounds the same as VBR with respect to waiting for it to spin up bitrate when it decides its time.?
I was kind of wondering the same thing. I'm going to try one of my cams with AI coding for a few days and see what happens.
 
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I was kind of wondering the same thing. I'm going to try one of my cams with AI coding for a few days and see what happens.

Same. I am going to try it with one of my newer cams and see if it ramps up fast enough. I know some of the older ones couldn't ramp up fast enough.

Of equal importance is what does the substream quality look like when recording 24/7 when there is no motion. Can you still make out stuff that didn't trigger a mainstream or will it be too poor because the bitrate dropped too low.
 
My LPR would be a real test, right at 1 second of plate view or about 25-30 frames
 
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I've been running it for a long time now and haven't really noticed much if any difference. I've not done a hard side-by-side trying to compare though and I'm not doing anything like LPR with that cam. But for practical purposes seems basically the same overall. Hasn't affected triggering or tracking of my PTZ. Substream quality is fine. Same as before. Bitrate doesn't seem to vary all that much. About in line with others at similar settings. Not all that exciting. Was the only way that I could get rid of the pulsing on that cam so gave it a shot and no issues since so I stuck with it.
 
OK here is my Z4E-S3 setup the way we normally do without the AI codec and CBR and matching FPS and iframes:

1730859850723.png



Here is the camera set up with AI codec, max resolution, double iframes and same car and time as above from the day prior:

1730859415736.png

Maybe it is because it is such a tight field of view that it can't ramp up fast enough?

Will be interesting to see what @bigredfish gets with his LPR.
 
OK here is my Z4E-S3 setup the way we normally do without the AI codec and CBR and matching FPS and iframes:

View attachment 206517



Here is the camera set up with AI codec, max resolution, double iframes and same car and time as above from the day prior:

View attachment 206512

Maybe it is because it is such a tight field of view that it can't ramp up fast enough?

Will be interesting to see what @bigredfish gets with his LPR.
That's quite a difference for sure.
 
I think I can test that with the 5241 Z12... let me work on that, it does have the AI codec

@wittaj 's sample really shows something I want to explore in another thread when i get time this week. Tighter, more zoomed FOV is where you REALLY see differences in cameras, settings etc.
Its relatively easy and I think deceiving to show cameras with well lit targets in the far (500ft+) distance. Small far away objects dont show the detail to see whats really happening. That was my problem with the new super light monster camera shown by the Turkey Dist. Great if overview of a city is your objective, not very helpful if you want to see whats happening around your house as we saw with the Polish test of the same camera without light.

 
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I think I can test that with the 5241 Z12... let me work on that, it does have the AI codec

@wittaj 's sample really shows something I want to explore in another thread when i get time this week. Tighter, more zoomed FOV is where you REALLY see differences in cameras, settings etc.
Its relatively easy and I think deceiving to show cameras with well lit targets in the far (500ft+) distance. Small far away objects dont show the detail to see whats really happening. That was my problem with the new super light monster camera shown by the Turkey Dist. Great if overview of a city is your objective, not very helpful if you want to see whats happening around your house as we saw with the Polish test of the same camera without light.



No doubt my test isn't representative of what is possible with those settings and for some field of views the AI codec and stuff probably works great, but my field of view is a setup that many of us do to capture IDENTIFY aspects and as you said, that can be when we see differences in camera setups.

I will try this with one of my wider views and I suspect the results will be different.
 
Yeah, that's a much harder test than mine. I'm parked looking out from the front of my house with as wide of a view as I can get it. Mine does get to a very tight FOV (faces near filling the frame) when it goes tracking at times but it's already long switched over to full stream by the time that it gets there. And faces aren't moving fast and it's locked on and moving with them.