A Dahua Camera Conumdrum...
- Thread starter DaveK
- Start date
fenderman
Staff member
- Mar 9, 2014
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So, the pathway here is:
1. Buy the full version of BI
2. Try it with the 9 cameras to see if it runs. If it runs, excellent! If it doesn't, continue...
3. Run ethernet cables through the house to the switches and bypass the powerline adapters. If that doesn't work, try to get a refund on BI. If that does work, continue...
4. Kludge the Telco 25-pair cables to see if they can carry the load. If yes, then we're good. If no, continue...
5. Pull long runs of Cat5 cable to the switches.
It's gonna' be a long week, I think.
1. Buy the full version of BI
2. Try it with the 9 cameras to see if it runs. If it runs, excellent! If it doesn't, continue...
3. Run ethernet cables through the house to the switches and bypass the powerline adapters. If that doesn't work, try to get a refund on BI. If that does work, continue...
4. Kludge the Telco 25-pair cables to see if they can carry the load. If yes, then we're good. If no, continue...
5. Pull long runs of Cat5 cable to the switches.
It's gonna' be a long week, I think.
fenderman
Staff member
- Mar 9, 2014
- 36,892
- 21,408
Dont use the telco cables, run proper ethernet...ip cameras need a solid stable connection as dropped packets can wreak havoc...do it right the first time.
I know I "should" hardwire the whole thing with Cat5. The problem is that I'll have to do at least two runs of nearly 200 ft each to get to where the POE switches are located, and the way the house is built it's impossible to do a continuous run inside the house, even through the attics (two wings with a vaulted ceiling in between). Running the Cat5 as surface wiring inside the house is NOT an option. Running it "discretely" outside the house is going to be difficult, but doable if necessary.
The 25-twisted-pair telco cable gets badmouthed because it was never "rated" and people assume that it therefore won't work. However, when folks try it, the data rates are usually a lot better than anyone expected. Connecting a few RJ45 keystones to the telco cable is pretty easy compared to running all that new Cat5, and if it's good enough, I'll be happy. If it's not good enough I won't have much time invested in it.
I try not to let the "perfect" be the enemy of the "good".
The 25-twisted-pair telco cable gets badmouthed because it was never "rated" and people assume that it therefore won't work. However, when folks try it, the data rates are usually a lot better than anyone expected. Connecting a few RJ45 keystones to the telco cable is pretty easy compared to running all that new Cat5, and if it's good enough, I'll be happy. If it's not good enough I won't have much time invested in it.
I try not to let the "perfect" be the enemy of the "good".
fenderman
Staff member
- Mar 9, 2014
- 36,892
- 21,408
There are professionals who run low voltage cable in ways you could not imagine...its not rated because its not properly twisted to avoid interference and crosstalk..with ip cameras its not about data rates (they only need low amounts of bandwidth) but about the quality of the connection. While dropped packets are not big deal for a pc, they cause all sorts of issues with ip cameras. What good is a camera system if it results in a corrupted image or no image--even if it works most of the time, Murphy's law is exponentially multiplied when it comes to losing important footage.
Remember, it is twisted pair, and there's no longer even a single phone pair in there to crosstalk with. Almost all the old telco twisted pair cables were "rated" to Cat1, but actually performed to Cat3 or better when tested.
As I've said, running the new Cat5 cable properly is a huge job, so 30 minutes of time invested to try the telco cable isn't such an awful choice if it doesn't work. I'll be sure to report back on this to confirm how it works. Who knows, with the full version of BI, maybe even the powerline adapters will be fine and I won't need to go there.
Many thanks for all the advice!
As I've said, running the new Cat5 cable properly is a huge job, so 30 minutes of time invested to try the telco cable isn't such an awful choice if it doesn't work. I'll be sure to report back on this to confirm how it works. Who knows, with the full version of BI, maybe even the powerline adapters will be fine and I won't need to go there.
Many thanks for all the advice!
nayr
IPCT Contributor
fenderman is right, as always.. most video streams are UDP and not TCP.. UDP has no error correcting or retransmitting lost packets, or anything remotely capable of dealing with wiring issues.. frames tearing, ghosting, all sorts of errors will be seen from the cameras without good network cabling.
TCP on the other hand can cope with crappy network alot better, but one way or another if you have poor connectivity you will have issues with HD video streams long before other network activities such as using the web show any significant issue.. more than 90% of traffic now days is ad-hoc TCP connections (non-persistent), so if someone reported they had success with those wires its not the same data transmission you are needing, so grains of salt are nessicary.
We have people here reporting all sorts of issues with IPCameras that are resolved by replacing the ends on the cable.. if a poorly crimped end can wreak so much havoc, your just asking for trouble.
TCP on the other hand can cope with crappy network alot better, but one way or another if you have poor connectivity you will have issues with HD video streams long before other network activities such as using the web show any significant issue.. more than 90% of traffic now days is ad-hoc TCP connections (non-persistent), so if someone reported they had success with those wires its not the same data transmission you are needing, so grains of salt are nessicary.
We have people here reporting all sorts of issues with IPCameras that are resolved by replacing the ends on the cable.. if a poorly crimped end can wreak so much havoc, your just asking for trouble.
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fenderman
Staff member
- Mar 9, 2014
- 36,892
- 21,408
it is not twisted as tight as cat5...also, the order of the cables twist matters-which wires are twisted together and how they lay in the cable...I can point you to several threads here where users could not figure out what they did wrong...turns out, they matched the cable ends perfectly but did not use a 568 standard. The use of the standard prevents the crosstalk/interference..
Well, of course you need to pick the pairs carefully. If you mismatched the pairs in Cat5 it wouldn't work well either (and I've done that! LOL!).
Frankly, I don't expect the telco cable to work for this, but have to try due to the real difficulty of running the new Cat5. As I said, I'll be sure to report back on my success, or lack thereof.
Oh, and there is another weird option that would probably work better than the telco, but more trouble. I have an old (no longer functional) Nutone intercom system that uses 8-wire cable, and that cable is formed of tightly twisted 18-20 ga pairs. It's just that its termination points are inconveniently located. I have no doubt that the intercom cable would work, but it's a lot more work to connect from that to my POE switches.
Frankly, I don't expect the telco cable to work for this, but have to try due to the real difficulty of running the new Cat5. As I said, I'll be sure to report back on my success, or lack thereof.
Oh, and there is another weird option that would probably work better than the telco, but more trouble. I have an old (no longer functional) Nutone intercom system that uses 8-wire cable, and that cable is formed of tightly twisted 18-20 ga pairs. It's just that its termination points are inconveniently located. I have no doubt that the intercom cable would work, but it's a lot more work to connect from that to my POE switches.
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nayr
IPCT Contributor
how did all this low voltage wiring get put in in a house that's impossible to run wires through? consider hiring a professional if it comes down to it, they will get it accomplished or they wont get paid and they have an assortment of fishing tools and vast experience to fall back on for those tough ones.. absolute worse case you might have to repaint a few spots they patched back up, but even that is infrequent.. it'll cost ~$150 a run for a difficult one on average, tha'd be worth it to get your house wired up with some modern copper.
also you can paint emt conduit to match your house, and if its installed correctly it can look quite nice when someone does notice it.
I understand your desire to work with what you have, but alot of the troubles your going to see might not be apparent right out of the gate.. wiring issues can be spastic and nonsensical; frequently when someone does not suspect wiring they go insane trying to figure out the problem.. so test, test, then test some more, if you ever have any issues at any point in time your going to have to prove to your self and everyone here its not your dodgy cables.
Your running a fuckload of cameras off a demo license, your going to need to fork over money for a license eventually.. so just go ahead and get it over with, no point in refunding it it dont fix this issue.. if your ready to buy it now why would your bad network cause you to back out? Before you spend too much time trying to re-invent the wheel, go get that taken care of... the demo is intentionally crippled and you should not be spending too much time working on performance issues until that's behind you.
also you can paint emt conduit to match your house, and if its installed correctly it can look quite nice when someone does notice it.
I understand your desire to work with what you have, but alot of the troubles your going to see might not be apparent right out of the gate.. wiring issues can be spastic and nonsensical; frequently when someone does not suspect wiring they go insane trying to figure out the problem.. so test, test, then test some more, if you ever have any issues at any point in time your going to have to prove to your self and everyone here its not your dodgy cables.
Your running a fuckload of cameras off a demo license, your going to need to fork over money for a license eventually.. so just go ahead and get it over with, no point in refunding it it dont fix this issue.. if your ready to buy it now why would your bad network cause you to back out? Before you spend too much time trying to re-invent the wheel, go get that taken care of... the demo is intentionally crippled and you should not be spending too much time working on performance issues until that's behind you.
All the low-voltage wire was put in at the time of construction, 40 years ago. The only thing that wasn't put in was coax for TV cable. Heck all the lights in the house are controlled by 18v relays! My utility room has a huge 66-board that distributes the 25-pair cabling to every room in the house!
And no, the damage caused by putting new wires in the walls would not be fixed by a little spackle and paint... It's all plywood over the studs, solid wood paneling (old-growth western red cedar that you almost can't find anymore, at any price) over that, and all the walls are packed with insulation (soundproofing, I guess). The guy who built it had more money than good sense. Believe me, running new wires more than a few feet in those walls is a nightmare, and the pro's I've talked to agree. I did it once with the security system (just the keypads, everything else is wireless) and it was a freaking horror to get two little wire bundles to go where I needed them.
Yes, of course I'll be getting the license first, but if that doesn't solve the problem I'll have to deal with the network wiring, and it will probably end up involving conduit running outside parts of the house. I'm considering the "workaround" wiring solutions only because it's so bloody much work to run new Cat5 from my router to where it needs to go.
An aside here... I don't mind that software demo versions are crippled, because otherwise people would just rip it off. What irks me is not knowing the limitations when you are evaluating the software. Unless you know how it's crippled, you can't tell if the issue is a problem with the software, or if it's just a "feature" of the demo version.
And no, the damage caused by putting new wires in the walls would not be fixed by a little spackle and paint... It's all plywood over the studs, solid wood paneling (old-growth western red cedar that you almost can't find anymore, at any price) over that, and all the walls are packed with insulation (soundproofing, I guess). The guy who built it had more money than good sense. Believe me, running new wires more than a few feet in those walls is a nightmare, and the pro's I've talked to agree. I did it once with the security system (just the keypads, everything else is wireless) and it was a freaking horror to get two little wire bundles to go where I needed them.
Yes, of course I'll be getting the license first, but if that doesn't solve the problem I'll have to deal with the network wiring, and it will probably end up involving conduit running outside parts of the house. I'm considering the "workaround" wiring solutions only because it's so bloody much work to run new Cat5 from my router to where it needs to go.
An aside here... I don't mind that software demo versions are crippled, because otherwise people would just rip it off. What irks me is not knowing the limitations when you are evaluating the software. Unless you know how it's crippled, you can't tell if the issue is a problem with the software, or if it's just a "feature" of the demo version.
Well, you've been very right about this. My big problem is the network, and probably the limitations of the Powerline portion. It's sufficient for good video streaming and internet browsing, but the IP cameras are just a wee bit more finicky. I've posted a new question about how to redesign my network to make this work.