About to pull the trigger - a few questions...

[taz420nj]

(Paging @EMPIRETECANDY to this topic, as I have a couple questions direct for him as well )

When I originally joined here years ago I had my sights set on some Dahua cams and Blue Iris. I needed to do cams on a very limited budget, so I was entertaining all options.. Ring was doing their Neighbors referral program at that point, and due to a connection I have I was able to do enough to get an alarm system, a Doorbell Pro and two Elite cams for free. The cams did "enough" for what they are, I was asked for footage a few times by the landlady and a neighbor over various incidents, but the trash video quality (especially at night) and the fact that 24/7 recording and local access are still not an option is really starting to annoy me. And then of course there's the whole cloud-dependent thing. If I had actually paid the hundreds of dollars for these things I'd really be pissed.

So... Now seeing that there are a bunch of new options these days (the 4K Starlights got me excited), I'm ready to do it right. First.. Here is the area I need to cover..

I'm going to get three of the Color4K-X cams, and they will be mounted basically 3ft higher than these pics were taken (on the top eaves of my balcony 20ft up). I basically need a 180 degree FOV to cover the alley end to end, and as you can see I am closer to one end than the other. Since this cam does not come in varifocal, would the 3.6mm be good for all three (I see specs say 91 degree FOV)? Or should I wait til the 6mm (I'd assume itll be around 45 degree FOV?) comes out and do 3.6/3.6/6 or 3.6 (near end)/2.8 (center)/6 (far end)? The far end one would have priority on the parking lot (to watch my car in the end spot), but would still need to contain the whole front porch. I've seen a couple videos that demonstrate the digital zoomability at distance, but they only did it in daytime, so I have no reference for night distance performance (but the area is pretty well lit as you can see, and I've since had the power company install shrouds on the streetlights so they dont shine at the building). If you recommend the 6mm for the far end, do you have an ETA on it Andy? You had mentioned sometime this month in Wildcat's thread but don't know if that's still on track.

Second.. I'm thrilled to see Dahua now has the slim VTO doorbell camera. Because of the building facade being stone and lack of wired doorbells, I came up with a mounting method for the Ring Pro that passed landlady approval using their corner mount and heavy duty Command strips on the hinge side of the door frame (the original chunky VTO would not fit here). I routed the power wires through the weatherstripping, and it has worked fine for these past years. The slim VTO looks to be very similar in size to the Ring Pro, and now that I have a 3D printer I can fab up a similar mount for it. So my questions for Andy are.. Does the one you carry in your store have the RFID card reader? I don't see the card icon on the front but the specs on the page say it has it. I have a Kwikset Z-wave lock (runs through my Ring alarm as the bridge, but I'll be buying a SmartThings hub to get everything off the Ring ecosystem), and I'm sure I can come up with some way to trigger it from the lock output on the camera (learning OpenHAB is on my "keep me busy" list). I think it would be pretty cool to get one of those RFID smart rings so I could just wave my hand by the cam and unlock my door!

Also (since I didn't see it in your store), do you have any intention of getting the VTH displays? I'm interested in a cam/monitor kit, but I only see the cam.

Last.. Blue Iris. I have an Unraid server (Ryzen 5 1600, 32GB RAM, 48TB storage) that I'd like to run it on. I assume this won't be a problem for 4 cameras horsepower-wise. I see there is a BlueIris Docker available in the Store, can anyone vouch for it? Is it actively maintained within a reasonable timeframe from BI updates?

I have my network gear and the server on a big UPS. It is set to shut the server down after 10 minutes on battery in order to allow the network gear and PoE equipment to remain up as long as possible (3-4 hours). Now this is the only place the Ring cams have an advantage - they can stay up and record without a local computer...... So since I now have to choose between losing BI or cutting the battery runtime significantly to keep BI running, I ask you this. If I have SD cards in the cameras, I assume they are just always recording in a loop as long as they have power, independent of what's on the other end, right? If the cameras still have power through PoE, is it possible for BI to automatically pull whatever it is missing from the SD cards when it boots back up? Or is it just if I need footage of something that happened during the outage I have to pull it off the card manually before it's overwritten?

I think thats all I have for now.. Thanks in advance for all your help!

 

[sebastiantombs]

Mounted that high even with a 6mm lens you will not get any video that provides identification of who did what when something happens. At those ranges even a 12mm lens on a varifocal will not get enough detail for identification. Look in the Wiki, in the blue bar at the top of the page, for information on DORI, IE distance to observe, recognize, identify.

 

[taz420nj]

Mounted that high even with a 6mm lens you will not get any video that provides identification of who did what when something happens. At those ranges even a 12mm lens on a varifocal will not get enough detail for identification. Look in the Wiki, in the blue bar at the top of the page, for information on DORI, IE distance to observe, recognize, identify.

Im not following... Wildcat's review for that camera at 3.6mm puts Recognize distance at 80 feet and Identify distance at 40 feet... 6mm would be higher. Another video I saw of it showed you could read a license plate at 50 feet using digital zoom.... That shed is roughly 65 feet away - my parking spot is in front of it.. Using Pythagorean theorum being 20 feet up only adds 3 feet to the distance (considering people's faces are 5-6 feet off the ground, it would only be 14-15 feet above that, meaning the height/distance add would be even less)....

 

[wittaj]

Did you watch his videos - there is no IDENTIFY at 40 feet, especially at night.

You have to take the DORI numbers and cut in half or 75% at night.

His videos were cameras at basically head hight. At the height you are looking at and distance, you will not get IDENTIFY of a complete stranger...it will be tops of heads and hoodies.

Of course the marketing numbers are going to be exaggerated a little and are centered around ideal conditions, just like MPG ratings of a car. Under ideal conditions - nice sunny day mid afternoon with an object not moving, you might get close to 27 feet (with some digital zoom unfortunately, but would probably be more RECOGNIZE than IDENTIFY). But at night time, no way.

When do we want these cameras to perform? Typically in it's worse condition, which will be middle of the night without much light. One should get a camera that performs well in the location's worse condition. If it works well in the middle of the night with little light, it will be excellent during the day.

This camera is a great camera. I have one and it is incredible. But it is also large. Too large for most people to want to install at 6-7 feet height. I opt for turrets at that height, recognizing that this camera isn't available in a turret, so we have to go with the 4MP or 2MP. But as long as it is on the proper MP/sensor ratio and is the correct optical zoom for the area to be covered, the 4MP or 2MP will perform very well.

I use mine as an overview camera. Works very well in that situation. But I have lower cameras optically zoomed for pinch points to get the IDENTIFY pictures. Occasionally I am able to get an IDENTIFY capture from this if the person is looking straight ahead or up, but at night it has to be a lot closer.

But our long time expert Wildcat ran this camera thru its paces. He had the 3.6mm version and here is the screenshot from 40 feet in the ideal daylight, which based on DORI numbers is the supposed IDENTIFY distance for this camera with the 3.6mm lens and I think most of would agree that this is not IDENTIFY quality, even if digitally zoomed in:

Or look at this thread where a person made the same "mistake" of thinking he could IDENTIFY at 25 feet out with the 4/K plus had them too high....he has admitted if he had to do over again he would go lower and with focal lengths to truly capture those distances.

As you look at this thread and his videos, could that be an IDENTIFY capture for the police to use for trying to ID someone...

Long Time Listener, First Time Caller - Dahua/Empire 4k Color Cams

My first real intro here. I'll skip the intro section, since I'm going straight into the meat and potatoes in this post as well. I'm setting up my first camera setup, so most all of this stuff is new to me. I've been into hobby photography for many years, so image sensors, focal length...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[taz420nj]

I live in a second floor apartment. I can only install things in my own space. I can't put anything on the downstairs neighbor's area or on common areas. So that limits me to the railing (still 14 feet up) or the eave. No way at all I can get it at 6-7 feet or any closer to my parking spot. Given their size and color they'd be far more conspicuous on the railing than under the eave, plus going down to the railing means ill have exposed cables (up top there's flashing I can tuck it under) and have to figure out some sort of clamp-on mounts.

I'm concerned with my property. Anybody breaking into or porch pirating my place or my immediate neighbors places would have to get within 10 feet of the high cameras in any direction, plus walk right up on the doorbell cam. My main concern for identification outside of that are anybody messing with my car and my motorcycle (parked on the pad next to the boat).

There is plenty of light in the alley from the two street lights (glare is even reduced from when these pics were taken because there are now shields on the lights) and there are floodlights on the front of both porches, and the parking lot has pole lights and a high power utility owned floodlight on the power pole.

 

[Flintstone61]

Well then an overview of the area is what you have to work with. There is some peace of mind in upgrading to 24/7 recording. At least you will get an idea of what is going on. You might like one of the camera's to be zoomed in on any motorcycle theft attempt with a cargo van in the Alley. To capture details. plates, etc....

 

[wittaj]

I started with the four 2.8mm cameras and I was like "I can place one on each corner of the house and see my whole property and the whole neighborhood." A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the 2.8mm fixed wide angle lens. I LOVED IT WHEN I PUT IT UP. I could see everything that would be blocked looking out the windows.

It is easy to get lured in to thinking the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood" because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by". Or you watch back the video of you walking around and are like "yeah I can tell that is me".

Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.

Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened.

Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. These 2.8mm wide angle cameras are great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera if the camera is installed less than 9 feet hight. At 40 feet out or a higher install you need a different camera.

And like most, I stuck these wide angle cameras on the 2nd story to be able to see even more, which then means any IDENTIFY distance is lost vertically. Someone needs to be within 10-13 feet to identify someone with a 2.8mm lens. A camera placed 16-20 feet up means the entire IDENTIFY distance is lost in the vertical direction. They could be one foot away horizontally, but at 20 feet high, you will only get a good shot at the top of the head...

So then we start adding more cameras and varifocal cameras so that we can optically zoom in to pinch points and other areas of interest to get the clean IDENTIFY captures of someone. While the varifocals are great at helping to identify at a distance, they come at a cost of a reduced field of view, just like the wide-angles are great at seeing a wide area, but they come at the expense of IDENTIFY at distance.

You benefit from great light. But at 20 feet high, almost any camera would suffice for overview duty. If you are concerned about your bike or car or garage, you would really want to get a varifocal like the 5442-Z4E or 5241-Z12E to OPTICALLY zoom in to those areas.

 

[wittaj]

So since I now have to choose between losing BI or cutting the battery runtime significantly to keep BI running, I ask you this. If I have SD cards in the cameras, I assume they are just always recording in a loop as long as they have power, independent of what's on the other end, right? If the cameras still have power through PoE, is it possible for BI to automatically pull whatever it is missing from the SD cards when it boots back up? Or is it just if I need footage of something that happened during the outage I have to pull it off the card manually before it's overwritten?

Many of us have found that recording 24/7 on the SD card can bug out the little processor in these cameras and cause it to stall, freeze, go wonky, etc. Some have no problems. When I tried it the camera would get wonky when the card was full and the camera was trying to decide how to delete and record over at the same time YMMV. Most of us record on motion triggers for the SD card. Plus if recording 24/7, depending on your settings, you may get at most 28 hours or so of continuous recording. For some that might be sufficient.

Unfortunately, BI cannot retrieve any missing video from the SD card. So yes you would have to pull the footage from the SD card in the event something happened and BI was down.

 

[taz420nj]

I started with the four 2.8mm cameras and I was like "I can place one on each corner of the house and see my whole property and the whole neighborhood." A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the 2.8mm fixed wide angle lens. I LOVED IT WHEN I PUT IT UP. I could see everything that would be blocked looking out the windows.

It is easy to get lured in to thinking the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood" because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by". Or you watch back the video of you walking around and are like "yeah I can tell that is me".

Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.

Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened.

Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. These 2.8mm wide angle cameras are great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera if the camera is installed less than 9 feet hight. At 40 feet out or a higher install you need a different camera.

And like most, I stuck these wide angle cameras on the 2nd story to be able to see even more, which then means any IDENTIFY distance is lost vertically. Someone needs to be within 10-13 feet to identify someone with a 2.8mm lens. A camera placed 16-20 feet up means the entire IDENTIFY distance is lost in the vertical direction. They could be one foot away horizontally, but at 20 feet high, you will only get a good shot at the top of the head...

So then we start adding more cameras and varifocal cameras so that we can optically zoom in to pinch points and other areas of interest to get the clean IDENTIFY captures of someone. While the varifocals are great at helping to identify at a distance, they come at a cost of a reduced field of view, just like the wide-angles are great at seeing a wide area, but they come at the expense of IDENTIFY at distance.

You benefit from great light. But at 20 feet high, almost any camera would suffice for overview duty. If you are concerned about your bike or car or garage, you would really want to get a varifocal like the 5442-Z4E or 5241-Z12E to OPTICALLY zoom in to those areas.

Ok first off, I don't want you to think I'm trying to argue. I'm just trying to understand and maybe it's not clicking with me, and maybe I'm not being clear with my intentions... But I never said I wanted to do as big an area with one camera as possible.. I didn't even consider the 2.8mm because I know it's too wide (I dabble in DSLR photography, so I'm familiar with sensor and FOV basics). I'm not going high to get more FOV, I'm going high because that's all I can do. I don't own the place, and I can't go stringing cameras to the ideal places for where I need to see and camera capabilities. I can only put them on "my property" which is a second floor balcony.

I absolutely know optical zoom is where its at and I know that digital zoom and "enhancement" doesn't really work like it does on CSI. But with the sensor sizes and price being the same between the 2MP, 4MP, and 4K, having 2x or 4+x the pixels (it seems to me anyway) should allow for the 4K (in absence of any tighter lens than 3.6mm) to digitally zoom in to 2x (7.6mm equiv) with the same "clarity" as a 4MP@~8mm at 100%. A 6mm when it comes out should theoretically be able to give up to 12mm equiv digitally with the same clarity. I can not under any circumstances imagine that I would need any more than that to keep an eye on my little half square block, let alone 32 or 64mm. My motorcycle is 30-ish feet away, and again I will have the VTO Doorbell cam on the porch to guard the only practical entry and my packages (hardwired PoE so no jammer or power failure vulnerability).

And as for DORI distance, I have to disagree with your assessment of recognizing/identifying strangers. Just because YOU don't know who it is doesn't mean someone else isn't going to recognize them using the same attributes that you mention (for example the police might immediately identify that door tester as a frequent flyer they've dealt with), or that the photo/video can't be used to identify/incriminate a suspect beyond a reasonable doubt in court. If the cropped snapshots that Kevin Doe posted from his 2.8mm camera 12 feet up of him by his car 20 feet away to play with lighting were shown on TV looking for information, you know full well that someone who knows him would instantly recognize him and the police would positively identify him off those even though it's not a "crystal clear" HD picture anymore. I do believe that Wildcat would be identifiable at 30-40 feet in that video had he not been dressed like a Cobra Trooper

I'm truly curious what your thoughts on my thoughts are.. I appreciate the help and education.

 

[wittaj]

No offense taken. You are clearly hear to learn and not be argumentative. I am simply sharing with you my experiences and conveying the experiences of others as it relates to these cameras. At the end of the day it is up to you to decide what works best for you and what you are trying to accomplish after hearing and seeing our experiences...

I totally get that you are limited in your install locations and there are ways around it (varifocals to "flatten" the angle). If it were my place, I would put a varifocal that I can optically zoom into the areas of concern instead of relying on a fixed focal length that inherently will have too large of a field of view and too high to be of real use to ID a perp.

If the pad next to the boat was my area of concern, I would do an optical zoom to about this field of view or a little tighter:



The higher the camera is, the more focal length that is needed to "flatten" the angle so that you are not getting tops of heads and hoodies.

And you are right, "Just because YOU don't know who it is doesn't mean someone else isn't going to recognize them using the same attributes that you mention (for example the police might immediately identify that door tester as a frequent flyer they've dealt with), or that the photo/video can't be used to identify/incriminate a suspect beyond a reasonable doubt in court." Absolutely someone may recognize them based on that attribute, but that means a friend is snitching on them. Look how many times we see the blurry images on TV where they are hoping for exactly what you said and nobody ever turns them in. Wouldn't you want to give the police the best evidence possible to IDENTIFY a person? Keep in mind the crop shots that Kevin posted were of him standing still as well. How many perps will stand still for the pic? And 12 feet high versus 20 feet high doesn't sound like a lot, but for these cameras it can make a big difference!

You might have to forget what you know about DSLR and high end photography cameras LOL as you play with these types of cameras. Almost everyone that has come here with experience in DSLR cameras struggle with these cameras. Every one of these cameras have more processing of the images than a DSLR camera. Some are worse than others. Then there is the compression of the video, etc. Turn off NR on one of these cameras and you will see how much processing is used - hint it is a lot and the image looks like crap:

Noise Reduction on:



Noise Reduction off (and this actually looks better than the dancing pixels watching the video LOL):



You will find a BIG difference between photography equipment and these cameras. Things like trying to match focal lengths are tough because it may be crystal clear on high end DSLR and not be clear with these types of cameras. Digital zoom works better on DSLR cameras than these. The sensors and optics just are not at the same level. These cameras are designed for 24/7 use with abuse from the elements. DSLR cameras are designed for a different working environment and purpose. Hang a DSLR camera outside and see how long it lasts LOL! But the quality would be better for the time it was working (but also a lot more storage needed too).

Remember these are surveillance cameras, not DSLR cameras, so you have to check your expectations. For example, you can see individual hairs and skin pores with DSLR photography equipment and you won't with these kinds of cameras, not even a 4K camera with someone standing still 10 feet away - they just are not to that level of a DSLR camera or even the camera in your mobile phone. These are for a different use and different expectations.

• Sensor Size - a full frame DSLR sensor size is 864mm^2; whereas a 1/2.8" sensor popular on many cameras would be 20mm^2, so the "real" camera can collect over 40 times more light than a surveillance camera. And this doesn't even account for less light available for an 8MP versus 2MP for the same size sensor.
• Shutter Speed (Exposure) - Taking a picture with a "real" camera, you can slow the shutter down to 1/2s or longer for a nice clean picture of a person not moving. Perps rarely stand still and we need a shutter of at least 1/60s to minimize the blur.
• Aperture - With a "real" camera you focus on a specific part of the field of view, while a surveillance needs to focus on things in the foreground and background, which means the aperture is smaller, further compounding the light issue.
• Compression - A single 8MP image from a "real" camera could be upwards of 5MB of storage. In surveillance cameras, if you record at 15FPS, every second of video could be 75MB or more, which could equate to 6.5TB per day per camera. Obviously most are not going to have that kind of storage, so lossy compression algorithms are used to reduce storage and network bandwidth requirement, and that can add noise.
• Environment - a "real" camera is used mainly under ideal conditions, whereas a surveillance camera is going 24/7 in every type of element, so the design and size impacts its capabilities.

Many here will say that 4MP is the sweet spot for these types of cameras and especially at night, 8MP doesn't gain you much. I can tell you that it has been my optically zoomed 2MP captures that have been the money shot that the police have used over my 4MP and 8MP camera captures with digital zoom.

These sensors are so small, that the veterans here will take a lower MP optical zoom over a higher MP digital zoom all night long....your analysis in theory makes sense, but the reality with these cameras are something else entirely.

I assure you a native image 4MP optically zoomed will produce a better image with these cameras than an 8MP 2x digital zoomed to the same field of view of the optically zoomed 4MP.

Take a look at this thread where someone was upset that the difference between a digitally zoomed 8MP versus 3MP wasn't that much different at just 15 feet away...yeah of course because these cameras just are not that capable and this was during the day in bright sunlight. At night it would be even less of a difference and the 3MP may overtake the 8MP. 8 MP cams are basically a selling point to sway the uninformed consumer to buy more MP....

8mp vs 3mp image comparison

hello, I have an 8mp 1/1.8" sensor PCI-T18F2S on the top and 3mp 1/3" sensor DS-2CD2132F-IS on the bottom. Both cameras are 2.8mm and the cereal box is at 15 feet in both cases. I would expect a much better image from the 8mp. What do you think? I'm sure you would like to have a lot more...

ipcamtalk.com

Here is a great example of two images taken at the same time (6am so it is dark out) of the same person from just slightly different angles - one from a 4MP 3.6mm camera that I digitally zoomed to make the person about the same size as the person is in the 2MP varifocal optically zoomed.

In case you cannot figure it out, the 4MP that is digitally zoomed in is the B&W picture and the 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in is the color picture LOL. Which one is better?

I think most would agree that the optically zoomed 2MP picture beats the 4MP digital zoomed picture - you can make out details and read some of the signage and bolts, etc. that is just a blur on the 4MP, which is being benefited by the same light the 2MP camera is getting plus the IR.

This my friend is why you do not chase MP and instead purchase a camera on the correct MP/sensor ratio and focal length for the area to cover!

With digital zoom you capture twice as much noise and other artifacts. Economically, the sensor size simply isn't available to us (nor would we want the size of the camera to accommodate it) isn't there to provide us with meaningful digital zoom beyond just a little bit.

Most of us have a wide angle fixed camera as an overview to OBSERVE a wider view and can serve to IDENTIFY when a subject is within the DORI distance for that particular camera, supplemented with optical zoomed cameras zoomed in to pinch points or other points of interest further out.

Digital zoom is using an algorithm to achieve that zoom and that also introduces artifacts. It isn't like taking a magnifying glass to a hard copy of something. Digital zoom introduces artifacts not present as the algorithm tries to fill in the missing pieces as a result of the zooming process.


I put together the following thread showing the importance of focal length over MP:

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. DO NOT CHASE MP!!!

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV (especially at night)...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.

 

[taz420nj]

Many of us have found that recording 24/7 on the SD card can bug out the little processor in these cameras and cause it to stall, freeze, go wonky, etc. Some have no problems. When I tried it the camera would get wonky when the card was full and the camera was trying to decide how to delete and record over at the same time YMMV. Most of us record on motion triggers for the SD card. Plus if recording 24/7, depending on your settings, you may get at most 28 hours or so of continuous recording. For some that might be sufficient.

Unfortunately, BI cannot retrieve any missing video from the SD card. So yes you would have to pull the footage from the SD card in the event something happened and BI was down.

Ok I wasn't sure how these do the recording. I figured it would be just a constant FIFO loop like a car dashcam (which don't seem to have recording issues, even on the dirt cheap ones - so it's odd that these would)... Good to know it's configurable though. Can BI take "imported" clips from the cameras that it doesn't record itself? Like if I were to come up with a script that only runs on server bootup that automatically dumps all the camera cards to the server?

 

[wittaj]

Ok I wasn't sure how these do the recording. I figured it would be just a constant FIFO loop like a car dashcam (which don't seem to have recording issues, even on the dirt cheap ones - so it's odd that these would)... Good to know it's configurable though. Can BI take "imported" clips from the cameras that it doesn't record itself? Like if I were to come up with a script that only runs on server bootup that automatically dumps all the camera cards to the server?

Well remember a dash cam is simply recording, it isn't trying to process and tag a motion alert and or use AI, etc. And again, maybe 24/7 works for the camera you buy or maybe it doesn't, so try it and if the camera starts getting wonky, that would be the first thing to change from continuous to on motion trigger.

I am not aware of anyone doing that or if it is possible (but with enough time and resources probably about anything is possible LOL).

To get the best video performance in BI you would use the proprietary BVR format, so you could not bring a video in that would be compatible to it.

So you either run a terribly inefficient system in MP4 format and then constantly delete and rebuild the Database for this new video brought in (which I would not recommend) if you could even figure out how to code it so BI would know what to do with it, or simply just pull the video and save somewhere else if needed.

OR you get an NVR with that capabilility.

 

[taz420nj]

@wittaj Ok fair enough. You're absolutely right, Im going off my DSLR experience, not my security experience (been out of the loop for a while, the last time I installed IP cams for a customer they were still pretty new consumer tech - my primary experience goes back to D1 systems that used VHS lol!)..

So let me ask you this.. Image-wise, seeing the lighting available in the area I want to watch... What would be better? The 2MP with the 1/2.8" sensor, or the 4MP with the 1/1.8" sensor (I just realized they were different, I thought all the Starvis sensors were 1/1.8")? I think the 8mm minimum on the 4MP will be too tight for anything without having to add a 4th camera, but the 5.3mm on the 2MP should be OK.

Also, for my curiosity if the need ever arises, can the zoom motor be operated remotely from the admin page or BI's PTZ controls (I know it wouldn't pan or tilt, just asking about the zoom control) or is it only from the onboard buttons?

 

[wittaj]

You have some great light, but at the same time I have no idea at what shutter speed that was at, so no idea if it is enough light once you dial the camera in.

If we want color at night, most of us have to force the camera in color because once you dial in the camera off of auto/default settings to be able to actually freeze frame the image to get a clean picture, you are at no slower than a 1/60s shutter and you probably recognize that the faster the shutter, the more light that is needed.

I have over 30,000 lumens radiating off my house and that isn't enough light for the camera to stay in color - I have to force it into color if I want color.

Starvis and Starlight are simply marketing terms. MP/sensor size ratio is more important.

The 5442 series is 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor (ideal MP/sensor ratio) and is the current king of cameras to most people here, and has varifocal capacity up to 32mm.

The 5241 series is 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor (ideal MP/sensor ratio) is the lessor cost camera, but has a model with varifocal capacity up to 64mm which is needed for some installs.

The 4K/X is an 8Mp on the 1/1.2" sensor (ideal MP/sensor ratio) but is limited to 2.8, 3.6, and soon to be 6mm focal length with no varifocal available.

Personally, I would look at the 5442-Z4E as it has up to 32mm focal length so that you can always get it closer if you like. But I like things closer. If your distance is truly under 40 feet, you could probably get by with the 5442-ZE.

While it is not recommended, you can adjust the optical zoom in BI. The recommendation would be to log into the camera GUI to ensure that the zoom and focus hold, but many people have done it successfully using the controls in BI. Personally I prefer the granular control going into the camera GUI. The camera does have onboard buttons as well, but most do it from the camera GUI. The buttons would be more for a professional installer with one of those gadgets that they connect to and look at the image while installing. I have never used the onboard buttons LOL.

Since you are looking at getting several cameras, I would suggest getting one 5442-ZE and test it at the proposed locations to help you determine the focal length you need.

 

[taz420nj]

Well remember a dash cam is simply recording, it isn't trying to process and tag a motion alert and or use AI, etc. And again, maybe 24/7 works for the camera you buy or maybe it doesn't, so try it and if the camera starts getting wonky, that would be the first thing to change from continuous to on motion trigger.

I am not aware of anyone doing that or if it is possible (but with enough time and resources probably about anything is possible LOL).

To get the best video performance in BI you would use the proprietary BVR format, so you could not bring a video in that would be compatible to it.

So you either run a terribly inefficient system in MP4 format and then constantly delete and rebuild the Database for this new video brought in (which I would not recommend) if you could even figure out how to code it so BI would know what to do with it, or simply just pull the video and save somewhere else if needed.

OR you get an NVR with that capabilility.

Oh I didn't mean it would be something done all the time requiring constant database work... Current uptime on that server is like 9 months as of now, but outages tend to happen in the summer here.

I was just wondering if BI was capable of importing non-native files to where it could be better organized if it happens, but I'm more interested in just being able to dump whatever is on the cards to archive it - especially if it would fill up that fast. I could just pull them to a share so that if there's something I need that I find missing from BI due to an outage, I can go get it from the share.

Im fine with trigger based recording to the cards, I just assumed they recorded constantly.

 

[wittaj]

Yeah I think you will find it easier to drop then into a share than to try to incorporate them into BI.

But BI is great and is always adding new features so one day we may see an update that adds this type of feature. I know people have put in requests, so if it can be done, BI will add it at some point.

 

[taz420nj]

Yeah I think you will find it easier to drop then into a share than to try to incorporate them into BI.

But BI is great and is always adding new features so one day we may see an update that adds this type of feature. I know people have put in requests, so if it can be done, BI will add it at some point.

Ok cool. So just a couple more questions about the ones you recommended.. They have all the same AI features as the 4K? Since the other ones have obviously been out for years, does the 4K have like better hardware specs that makes the AI run better (Wildcat made a mention about the 4K not getting as hot)? Would your 2/4MP recommendation change when a varifocal 4K model is released? I'm not exactly in a hurry, I can't see it being that much longer before they have one.

 

[Mike A.]

No practical difference between performance of the AI that I've seen. Not worth worrying about as far as a purchase decision. Both work very well if humans/vehicles are what you're interested in filtering for.

I'd have to double check the spec sheets to see what if any specific AI features might be available on one vs the other but equal for all of the main things. The 4K/X is newer and has a few new options like an "inside" mode for intrusion boxes and maybe a few other little things like that.

Who knows when they'll have a varifocal version. I don't think that I've seen Andy mention any real time frame for that one yet.

 

[anotherone]

Since you are looking at getting several cameras, I would suggest getting one 5442-ZE and test it at the proposed locations to help you determine the focal length you need.

Once I have the 5442-ZE camera zoomed the way I like it, is there a way to determine what the focal length is set to?

 

[sebastiantombs]

Look in the Wiki, in the blue bar at the top of the page. There's a converter for focal length in there. It's approximate, but close enough.