Acusense and 1/1.8 sensor

[amrogers3]

Sorry, 2nd post in the same day.

So couple guys here were super helpful in helping me figure out optimal sensor size. big thank you to wittaj and sebastiantombs.
720P - 1/3" = .333"
2MP - 1/2.8" = .357" (think a .38 caliber bullet)
4MP - 1/1.8" = .555" (bigger than a .50 caliber bullet or ball)
8MP - 1/1.2" = .833" (bigger than a 20mm chain gun round)

From what I have researched 4/5MP is the sweet spot for day/night resolution.

Looking for a 4MP, 1/1.8" sensor, Acusense aka people/vehicle detection, line crossing, strobe and audible alarm, low-light darkfighter

Only camera I could find that meets these requirements: DS-2CD2347G2-LSU/SL although it is ColorVu

1. Anyone know if the DS-2CD2347G2-LSU/SL is still in production and does in fact have Acusense?
2. Can you use IR with ColorVu and still get good resolution?

 

[sebastiantombs]

One other caution for you. DarkFighter, ColorVue, Starlight, Satrlight+, FullColor and all the other terms used by manufacturers are just marketing hype. There is no specification for any of those terms. I've seen 4MP cameras on a 1/3" sensor called night time full color cameras. With a slow enough shutter speed, all motion a blur at best, any camera can see in full color with very little light.

Here's a fairly technical review of a Dahua 4K full color camera for you -

Dahua Color 4K-X in-depth review

Hi everyone, today I present you a review of recently announced Dahua Color 4K-X camera. This is a 4K resolution model with ultra bright f1.0 lens and huge 1/1.2” sensor. The combination of bright lens and such big CMOS, promises excellent image quality both in broad daylight as well as at...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[amrogers3]

cool! ok so then can I use IR to provide additional light for any camera including this one?

 

[sebastiantombs]

Not this one. This one doesn't "see" IR. It is 24/7 color but it will do black and white I believe.

 

[wittaj]

Sorry, 2nd post in the same day.

From what I have researched 4/5MP is the sweet spot for day/night resolution.

Looking for a 4MP, 1/1.8" sensor, Acusense aka people/vehicle detection, line crossing, strobe and audible alarm, low-light darkfighter

Only camera I could find that meets these requirements: DS-2CD2347G2-LSU/SL although it is ColorVu

1. Anyone know if the DS-2CD2347G2-LSU/SL is still in production and does in fact have Acusense?
2. Can you use IR with ColorVu and still get good resolution?

You still need to learn.... 4/5MP is not the sweet spot for day/night resolution. A 2MP being used for the proper distance will blow away a 4MP at night not being used in the right location/distance.

The proper sensor is, along with the correct camera for the distance you are trying to get coverage for is what is important. At the moment, varifocal cameras are not being produced with the same focal length power of some of the 2MP cameras.. The new Dahua 4K/X is a great camera, but will be useless to ID someone at 45 feet away as that is a fixed lens camera. A 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in to 45 feet away will blow it away all night long.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm 4k fixed lens cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away. His 4k cameras were not on an ideal MP/Sensor ratio and after seeing that my 2MP cams were blowing his 4K away, he started replacing the cameras with 2MP versions.

We had door checkers come through here recently. Again, my 2MP varifocals optically zoomed into pinch points provided the clean pictures. Even beat my 4MP/1.8" cams because of the distance.

I have said this before, but worth repeating. Do not be sold by some trademarked night color vision (Full Color, ColorVu, Starlight, etc.) that is a marketing ploy in a lot of ways lol. It is simply what a manufacturer wants to claim for low-light performance, but there are so many games that can be played even with the how they report the Lux numbers. They will claim a low lux of 0.0005 for example, but then that is with a wide open iris and a shutter at 1/3 second and an f1.0 - as soon as you have motion in it, it will be crap. You need a shutter of at minimum 1/60 second to reduce a lot of blur from someone walking. With the exception of the Starlight name, the rest of the marketing terms usually means the camera cannot see IR.

All cameras need light regardless of what any marketing claims. I can make a crap camera look like noon at midnight, but then motion is a blur. But with any light at all, this camera does really well.

Sensor size, F number, MP, quality of the lens and sensor and software running the cameras are the real determining factors. And then obviously dial each cameras specific software settings to optimize the image and video. A brightness of 50 for example will look different between two different brands, or even the same brand but different cameras.

Here is an example of a camera marketed as Starlight. This is an example from Reolink's marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture. This is why you cannot buy a system based on marketing terms like Starlight.... Could this provide anything useful for the police? Would this protect your home? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two columns:



Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you

I provided you a link in your other thread about a camera that meets all of your requirements except it is 2MP rather than 4MP. A camera doesn't exist that meets all of your requirements, so you need to decide which one to compromise with. For example, the Dahua I recommended doesn't have acusense as that is a Hikvision name, but it has it's own version that can heat map, people count, detect human and vehicle, etc.

 

[amrogers3]

Bad boys are going to get away, that's what they gonna do. What model is that Reo btw?

I understand what you guys are saying. As least I think I do. So what I did was go on the Hik site and use two criteria to find a camera: sensor size and turret as the case type. Then I tried to find the best ratio between the sensor size and the MPs like you guys showed me. The one I found was the only one that matched correctly, all the others were way off. There isn't a Hik that has the proper sensor to MP ratio.

I played around with IPVM and the distance is about 25' from camera to sidewalk and 30' from camera to the street edge.

I need 4mm and 6mm per IPVM. The 2nd camera on the driveway is because we usually have 2 cars and if someone walks between them we will lose coverage.

The two problems with that camera I found are no 6mm and it doesn't see IR like Sebastian said.

 

[wittaj]

I get you want a Hikvision, but what you want is available in Dahua and we gave you links...Cameras are like cars, and Dahua and Hikvision are like Toyota and Honda LOL.

If you really wanna stay with Hikvision, then you probably need to abandon the turret style or some other features. Hikvision sells plenty of cameras that are on the proper MP/sensor ratio, but as you go to higher MP and the proper sensor, the ability to fit all that in a turret becomes difficult. For example, an 8MP on the 1/1.2" sensor is only a bullet style at the moment by any manufacturer.

OK, now that we see what you are trying to cover, we can tell you that you should really look at a varifocal that will provide more optical zoom to cover what you are tying to capture.

To cover cars on a driveway, you need two cameras minimum, one on either side of the driveway pointed in a criss-cross pattern. To cover the street is another camera.

The IPVM is a nice tool, but real world shows that you need more optical zoom in realistic conditions, especially at night. Digital zoom after the fact only works in the movies and on TV.

Here is the DORI table and you can see that under best case scenario, a 6mm can IDENTIFY up to 26 feet, but real world testing shows you probably cut it in half or so, especially at night.



Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
• 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.

 

[amrogers3]

Excellent info, spot on, if you are anywhere around Houston, I owe you multiple beers. I've learned more going back and forth with you than I have in the last month I've spent reading and researching.

There are so many issues to take into account with cameras and there doesn't seem to a 100% solution which I think it is the most frustrating aspect of cameras. You fix one thing and break something else.

For example, the higher you go in a lens, the greater the blind spot. So if I go with a 2.8mm, I won't be able to identify from the sidewalk but I will get them as they approach the house which is more important I think.

If I go with a 4mm, you can see a significant blind spot area, roughly 1/3 of the driveway and close to the house which is a problem. So it looks like 2.8mm which you use is best suited for my situation.

I've got the MP/sensor ratio, case type (now looking for bullets), and lens size. I will try to get varifocal so I can manually adjust the zoom that best fits my situation. I will get to work looking at options. Thanks bud.

 

[wittaj]

The important thing is you found this site and are researching and asking questions BEFORE you buy gear that ends up not providing what you want!

Many of us here started with the crap all-in-one box kit. I started with the 4-camera pack and was like "I can place one on each corner of the house and see my whole property and the whole neighborhood." A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the fixed wide angle lens. Consumer grade cameras you buy at the big box stores cater to that mindset. Once that novelty wears off and you want to IDENTIFY, then that is when the varifocal becomes a benefit over the fixed lens.

You get lured in to thinking that is great because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by".

Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.

Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened.

Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. These 2.8mm wide angle cameras are great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera. At 40 feet out you need a different camera.

So then we start adding more cameras and varifocal cameras so that we can optically zoom in to pinch points and other areas of interest to get the clean IDENTIFY captures of someone. While the varifocals are great at helping to identify at a distance, they come at a cost of a reduced field of view.

We had an event happen a couple of weeks ago. None of my neighbors cameras caught anything or at best could tell the officer what time the perp checked their car door. Meanwhile the perps didn't come on my property, yet I was the only one to get a clean picture of them because I had varifocal cameras optically zoomed out to the sidewalk and the street and got them as they walked past.

 

[amrogers3]

Spot on. I was also looking at the big box store solution until I started to dig in and read and watch YouTube videos.

1. Is there an optimal range for varifocals? Would these be best for trying to capture a plate 40' away? Problem is I dont want 15 cameras hanging off the front of the house for HOA reasons. I will probably just be able to put up a few to capture the bad guys planning to do bad thing to me or my property.
2. Is fixed or varifocal better for license plate capture?
3. I dont think there is a good doorbell camera from what I have been reading. Would you just recommend putting up a camera in the entryway, maybe the smallest lens I can find to capture the most close up detail I can?

 

[wittaj]

Just so you are aren't watching the Hookup LOL.

People are oblivious and you paint the cameras to match your house and nobody will see them. Many people here have 3 cameras just looking at the front door.

Varifocals are designed to give you the flexibility you need to OPTICALLY zoom in to the area you want coverage for.

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV.

Now you mention you want to capture plates too, well that is a whole other discussion. Regarding a camera for plates (LPR) - keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. If you want to capture plates, you need a camera just for that. Very rarely does someone have the location to get by with a fixed lens camera to read plates. You need to OPTICALLY zoom in tight. There is a subforum here just on LPR.

You need the angle to capture a plate - 40 feet in your image above will get you someone pulling into your driveway, but you will be a lot further distance once you angle the camera up or down the street to get the proper angle to read a plate.

For LPR we need to zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP camera (that is all that is needed for plates):



Yeah, the doorbell cams are not that great right now.

Many of us use the dual lens camera (AKA booby cam LOL) as you can point one at the entry way and another down to see packages.

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-IPC-HDBW4231F-E2-M-Starlight-Network-English/dp/B07JZBFTDF/ref=sr_1_12?dchild=1&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1629241796&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&sr=1-12&th=1&tag=ipctk-20

Another popular choice is the min-wedge:

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-IPC-E3541F-AS-M-Starlight-Network-English/dp/B087R7PMLV/ref=sr_1_49?dchild=1&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1629241900&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&sr=1-49&tag=ipctk-20

 

[bradner]

Spot on. I was also looking at the big box store solution until I started to dig in and read and watch YouTube videos.

1. Is there an optimal range for varifocals? Would these be best for trying to capture a plate 40' away? Problem is I dont want 15 cameras hanging off the front of the house for HOA reasons. I will probably just be able to put up a few to capture the bad guys planning to do bad thing to me or my property.
2. Is fixed or varifocal better for license plate capture?
3. I dont think there is a good doorbell camera from what I have been reading. Would you just recommend putting up a camera in the entryway, maybe the smallest lens I can find to capture the most close up detail I can?

LPR (license plate recognition) is a whole different beast. I think there's an entire thread on here devoted to it that will answer all your questions. I've only used varifocals myself 64mm in one case and 32mm in another but for me my zoom factor was based on the distance away I was trying to do the capture - 60-120ft away. Some use a "regular" cam too successfully but it's all in your situation.

I have allot of cams but my cams really improved when I upgraded my lighting and I could run my cams in color at night. Having good lighting means you can run a faster exposure and reduce/minimize motion blur in lower light even more - it's nighttime where you really want your cams to perform. Every cam can get a decent image during the daytime.

 

[amrogers3]

Many of us use the dual lens camera (AKA booby cam LOL) as you can point one at the entry way and another down to see packages.

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-IPC-HDBW4231F-E2-M-Starlight-Network-English/dp/B07JZBFTDF/ref=sr_1_12?dchild=1&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1629241796&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&sr=1-12&th=1&tag=ipctk-20

Are you talking about two of these? Buying one to put above looking straight down and the other on a wall facing the entryway?

I dont see that there would be enough movement to individually move each one into the correct spot.

I was trying to use one ecosystem (HIK NVR) and to avoid multiple apps but if I get something like this, I guess I would use Blue Iris to manage them all.

 

[wittaj]

No, that camera has two lens - so one points one way and the other points another. So you could install next to the doorbell area and one looks straight ahead and the other points down. Or higher and one faces the doorway and the other looks down.




Have you already invested in the HIK NVR? If not, you could go with the Dahua ecosystem.

Even though you should match brand of camera with NVR brand, these two types can generally play well together, but some of the functionality may be lost.

And yes Blue Iris is always an option when mixing camera brands.

 

[amrogers3]

Even though you should match brand of camera with NVR brand, these two types can generally play well together, but some of the functionality may be lost.

See what I mean, never a 100% solution. LOL.

I did purchase a HIK NVR since I figured that was the direction I was going.

If Dahua and EmpireTech work well together, is there a resource to determine what brands work with HIK?

By the way, do you use color night vision or IR for your night coverage?

 

[wittaj]

Can you return the NVR lol.

EmpireTech is Dahua OEM, so it works well together because they are one in the same LOL.

Basically if the camera is ONVIF compliant, it will work with HIK, but keep in mind that ONVIF doesn't imply full functionality. The camera may have some feature that the NVR doesn't recognize, but for simple obtaining the video and storing and recording, it can do that. I assume you got an NVR that you can set motion detection up within the NVR in the event it cannot pull it from the camera?

I have a combination of cameras running color and IR so that I can get all the details. It is probably half-half of IR to color that I run.

 

[amrogers3]

Can you return the NVR lol.

I can definitely try LOL. I wish I would have found you guys earlier!

I'm going to tell you I have been down a lot of rabbit holes and wasted a lot of time trying to figure this out.

Yes, I believe the NVR has that capability, I'll double check. I may try to to return and go with BI. I've read some good things about it.

 

[wittaj]

I'd recommend you consider a Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR. Keep in mind an NVR is simply a stripped down computer after all... And this would allow you the flexibility to mix camera brands.

You don't need to buy components and build one, or buy a new computer either.

When I was looking at replacing an existing NVR, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal (the bandwidth is can process is a huge limiting factor), and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR.

Many of us buy refurbished computers that are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

A member here a couple months ago found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. You won't find a capable NVR cheaper than that...

Blue Iris has a demo, so try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

And you can disable Windows updates and set up the computer to automatically restart in a power failure, and then you have a more powerful NVR with a nice mobile viewing interface.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either. But we would recommend staying away from those brands even if you go the NVR route with one of those brands...

 

[sebastiantombs]

The big advantage of BI is that you're not limited to one brand of camera. With an NVR to get the most out of it you need to use the same camera brand.

The big disadvantage of BI is the learning curve. Sure, you can load it up, do a basic configuration, add a camera and go, but tuning and getting the most out of it takes time. If you're planning on using DeepStack AI, which integrates with BI, also plan on adding an NVidia GPU with as many cuda cores as you can afford, preferably over 1000. I've used BI since I started about five or six years ago. I'm still learning new tricks as time goes by

 

[amrogers3]

This whole thread is solid gold.
Great recommendation, I have an old computer I built years ago I could use for this.

One clarification I have is on night coverage. I have read that IR is better because it is clearer at night assuming you have some IR illuminators. I was going to use the Invisible series from Iluminar, based on the wiki info.

For my setup, 2 driveway lights, entry light, 1 not very bright street light in front, and my neighbors driveway lights which may or may not be on, would you recommend IR or trying to increase white light?