Am I missing something? (Motion Detection)

[sag227]

This week I had a pro install Dahua N488L64A but the motion detection is driving me literally insane.

The goal I am trying to achieve is record people around the property, particularly overnight. I don’t want to be notified (as best as the system allows) for anything else. I get its not a perfect science, and I don’t mind waking up to review a couple of shots of a fox doing fox things (my wife never gets tired of it), or plain old false positives.

I currently have some old ring devices that were left behind by the previous owner, though they are EOL and starting to fail. I’d like to match or better the notifications from the ring as much as possible.
Why I am going literally insane is that once the sun goes down, the bugs set the motion detection off for all 5 cameras. Rain is even worse. Notifications literally every second. Having your phone incessantly go off makes even the most grounded person snap.

Adjusting the Sensitivity and Threshold is an exercise in futility. Adjusting the sensitivity to 1 with a threshold of 99 still results in notifications at 1 per 30 seconds x 5 cameras, which means even if I was successful at eliminating the stuff during the night, I’d miss everything during the day.

Reviewing the recommendations from threads here and on IPCamtalk forum, I’m discovering that there’s no advanced IVS system built into cameras and the NVR obviously won’t work without it on IVS on the cameras. It seems like the only things under “Event” are “Video Detection” with Motion Detection and Video Tampering, Audio Detection and Abnormality. Am I missing something?

I need notifications of activity around my house. This is non-negotiable.

I don’t mind reaching out to the installer, he is a family friend of my wife’s family. But before I harass him and be difficult, what other options do I have?

 

[wittaj]

Welcome.

Unfortunately he sold you some crap cameras that may or may not work in your situation. Which we see all too often from a "pro". Even worse he is a family friend.

You have 8MP cameras on a sensor designed for 2MP - and that can be problematic at night because your camera will need 4 times the amount of light to produce the same brightness as a 2MP camera.

With that said, most here do not use Motion Detection/Smart Motion Detection (MD?SMD) for the exact problems you are having and instead rely on IVS rules.

As you see, you have cameras that do not have IVS rules, so you are limited to what you got.

I hope you didn't pay too much for those cameras.

I would say send them back and get cameras with IVS capabilities.

Another option is to add external infrared and turn off the infrared in the cameras.

But you will find that it is much better to get a camera on the proper MP/sensor ratio and with IVS like this camera that is a proven workhorse.

With IVS you will RARELY get a false. Over a course of a year, I can count on one hand the number of total false triggers from all my cameras combined.

Who uses Dahua AI capable cameras? Reliable AI for triggering events? Pro's/con's?

It has come to my attention that certain Dahua cameras come with built in AI that distinguishes between human & cars. I was unaware of this. Well, always saw the AI word used in the reviews but never really thought about it because I thought it was a Dahua NVR integration only. I am currently...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[wittaj]

And being the pro he is, I bet he left everything on auto/default settings?

Tell him you want cameras on the ideal MP/Sensor ratio.




Further, he installed cameras all of a 2.8mm fixed lens, so unless every perp is going to be within 10-15 feet of the camera, you will find them useless to IDENTIFY past that distance at night.

This kit will blow away what you have now. It comes with the workhorse camera in varifocal so that you can dial in the field of view to the area you want to cover.

See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

And as I mentioned, cameras set on auto/default settings will fail you at night.

In terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures and help the camera recognize people and cars.

Start with:

H264
8192 bitrate
CBR
15FPS
15 iframes

Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.

We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.

Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image. But try not to go above 70 for anything and try to have contrast be at least 7-10 digits higher than brightness.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.

 

[sag227]

Thank you very much for the awesomely quick reply.

I'm completely new to the IPCam world, so I do have a few follow-up questions for now before I make moves

1) Should the entire kit go back, or is the NVR decent? Would it work for the suggested cameras? I'm not entirely sold on Dahua for various reasons, so I don't mind either way, but I'm also not about throwing good money to bad, either.

1a) I noticed the firmware was last built in 1/2023. Based on the lifecycle of Dahua products, is this indicative of equipment nearing End of Service life?

2) when you say proven workhorse, you mean IVS world?

3) what do you mean MP/Sensor ratio? Like I think I understand and sort of "get it", but I'm not completely understanding it, as well as how to determine it?

Thanks again for being extremely quick and helpful!

 

[wittaj]

It isn't their lowest end NVR, but we would suggest the 5 series as it has more functionality and capability. It would work with the suggested cameras, but it has a lower bandwidth capacity that may cripple it at some point.

Dahua (and their OEM like the versions trusted member here @EMPIRETECANDY sells on Amazon and his own website) are very good cameras, especially at their price point. But like any company, they sell good cameras and bad cameras. Your camera is for the folks chasing MP over performance and not wanting to pay a lot. They are cheaper but on less than ideal sensor sizes.

You really need to be asking yourself do you want quality cameras to capture quality video at night with motion OR do you want the simplicity scan a QR code and be tricked into thinking you have a good system (that is actually a security risk and crappy video with motion at night)?

The consumer grade Ring and Arlos and Reolink and Blink and whatever you can buy at a big box store sells just that - simplicity plug-n-play devices with very little ability to tweak settings. But that simplicity comes at the expense of usable video with motion, especially at night. But out of the box and hang up quickly they do a decent job of human AI and certainly better than even a better camera that doesn't have AI as you are seeing. And their app and ease of use is easier also.

You will notice that most of these devices are lucky to have one or two, three tops of firmware updates. They want to sell new models. But you can't always go by the last update as to if it is EOL or not.

The Dahua 5442 series (or 54IR series of EmpireTech cameras) have simply been proven to be a workhorse in terms of performance day and night. They are the go to and recommended camera series here. They are cheaper than many Ring cameras.

I have this camera set up for when the spotlight comes on which is why it is so dark (also a 1/120 shutter to minimize blur), but the IVS captured a person at that distance in all black clothing. A Ring won't do that.




Experience has shown here that the sensor size is very important. It will determine the performance at night. It has been shown that cameras in green have the ideal MP/sensor ratio and tend to also have better AI analytics also.




Here is a recent example someone posted with an 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor (similar to the camera MP/sensor ratio you have) versus 8MP on the proper sized sensor (1/1.2" sensor) - which image looks better to you?

Of more importance is that the top picture is default settings, so a horribly slow shutter of maybe 1/12 so any motion would be a blur. The 2nd picture is a 1/100 shutter and will get a clean capture. The faster the shutter speed, the more light that is needed. That bottom picture at 1/100 shutter is impressive. If the top camera was set to a 1/100 shutter it would be a very dark image.


Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 2MP processor means that the processor is potentially working 4 times as hard for the 8MP camera. The camera you have is designed for 2MP, so when they pop an 8MP lens on it, the processor is still the same and has to work harder. In some situations that is problematic.

Here is a real world example with a deer. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 4MP on the sensor designed for 2MP to go into color. Imagine how much darker trying to squeeze 8MP on it will be and without a floodlight, forget about it.

And a 4MP on the proper 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL but same field of view when the camera was replaced to a better camera) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor (this is just the regular 5442 camera that I forced into color instead of using infrared):

Which do you think is the better image? The same thing applies whether it is a 4MP versus 8MP on the sensor sized for 2MP.

 

[bigredfish]

No offense but I'd send the whole kit back. The NVR is, well I didnt know they even made them that dumb still..

Boxed "kits" are generally not the way to go. Start with a good NVR that has full capabilities including AI/IVS and the bandwidth ability to run better and more cameras
This is the latest with most buttons and bells that wont break the bank and likely has more features than the average property owner will ever use.

NVR5208-8P-EI - Dahua International

NVR5208-8P-EI

www.dahuasecurity.com

Note there is a 16 channel version as well and typically not much more $, and because cameras tend to multiply like rabbits, go with the 16

NVR5216-16P-EI - Dahua International

NVR5216-16P-EI

www.dahuasecurity.com

As mentioned above, the 5442 4MP series is the current go-to camera series.
There are a few good 4K cameras, each with trade offs, better night image due to a larger sensor and onboard white lights, vs infrared with a smaller sensor - both attract bugs.

2.8mm wide angle cameras are fine for "Overview" seeing what happened, but lack the detail focus past 10ft to see "who did it". They should be used in combination with more tightly focused fixed and variable focus cameras covering choke points and where good ID is needed

Dont worry about FW just yet. No thats not necessarily an indication of EOL.

AI/IVS- Yes.
MD-NO It's a 10+ year old crappy detection technology that has very limited real world applications now.

 

[wittaj]

No offense but I'd send the whole kit back. The NVR is, well I didnt know they even made them that dumb still..

How many times do we see someone come here after going to a "pro" and they offload the most basic/old/cheap tech on them and charged a premium for the cameras and NVR...

I hope in this case being a family friend that they didn't take the OP to the cleaners.

 

[bigredfish]

But I'm sure it was advertised as a Great Deal! ... at Costco

 

[dudemaar]

But I'm sure it was advertised as a Great Deal! ... at Costco

Nope, ADI is where the Pro's go.


More like trunk slam special And this is Canadian $$$

 

[bigredfish]

I know bugs. Guess how many false alerts I got over 8 hours of this?

0

View attachment BUGS-Home_ch5_20230604212607_20230604212626.mp4
















And this one?
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View attachment Home_ch5_20230516205958_20230516210013.mp4

 

[bigredfish]

Fog ?

0 false alerts
View attachment FOG_ch6_20240116032034_20240116032104.mp4

 

[wittaj]

^MD/SMD would be triggering all night long!

 

[bigredfish]

Tornado w/Lightning strike 20ft from camera?
0 False alerts

Set YT player to 1440p

 

[wittaj]

As you can see @bigredfish is a big fan of IVS as well LOL

 

[sag227]

Everyone!

Thank you VERY much for the incredibly detailed help. Clearly I have some learning to do, but at least I have a great foundation to start on.

I'll keep everyone posted on how the resolution turns out.