PatPend
Pulling my weight
- Jul 10, 2016
- 160
- 195
A surge protector is not an EMP protector, simple as that.
Are you ready for a EMP attack?
- Thread starter c hris527
- Start date
As stated earlier this device is simply a surge protector (SPD / TVSS). All the vendor has done is simply cloak (advertise) this product as being a EMP solution, when its not.
As you correctly noted only proper shielding and everything noted up above will mitigate a EMP blast.If anyone took the time to watch the entire video you'll quickly note they say the product can only sustain a single direct lightning strike.
I'm going to wager not even close on that count either . . .
Yet in the same breath they state this product will sustain no less than 40 EMP blasts?!?!
Random Story:
So back in the day one of my clients was FPE (Federal Pioneer Electric) they make all kinds of industrial electrical hardware from service panels to those giant sized transformers the POCO deploys in the grid. I get a call one faithful day that one entire side of the buildings network and computer systems are down.
I get on site and sure enough a football field area is completely dead.Not down, but dead . . .
I'm not an electrician at all but did stay at the Holiday Inn many times!
I walked into a completely dark room filled with hundreds of people just sitting there whirling around in their chairs. I'm like why are you all sitting here in the pitch dark???They reply I don't know the power is out My reply to them is why the hell are they calling me about the network & computers if there's no fucking power???
They all just sit there staring at me and then all of the sudden burst out laughing. Regardless, I'm walking around this ginormous building that easily spans thirty foot ball fields in size just with a flashlight and head lamp. The Key Op this is the contact person I deal with along with letting them know what the game plan is etc.
He and I round a corner and begin to hear this buzzing / humming noise coming from one of the production QA rooms?!?!
What do you think I see behind this massive garage like door???
There's two huge 250 ~ 500 KVA transformers arching to each other!!
For those who don't know or haven't seen what that looks like go YouTube / Google the same. Essentially these two massive transformers were generating their very own EMP field! Think about something that's exploding and firing at extremely high frequency while also discharging millions of amps in Ns!
This is what took out more than half the building . . .
Now, if anyone truly believes this little piece of junk will protect anything from a Nuclear Bomb???
Smilingreen
Known around here
We need to buy one, cut it open and expose the guy for the scam artist he really is. Chances are it only has a few MOV's in it.
But think about it. Say you sell 50,000 pieces. You then take all that money and head for the ocean, buy a sail boat and sail off into the sunset. A big EMP happens and every single one of them fails. The connected world as we know it exists no more. How would you track the guy down to get your money back or sue him because every thing you have is fried? You have no computer, no telephone, no car, no electricity, nothing. It's like the perfect scam........
But think about it. Say you sell 50,000 pieces. You then take all that money and head for the ocean, buy a sail boat and sail off into the sunset. A big EMP happens and every single one of them fails. The connected world as we know it exists no more. How would you track the guy down to get your money back or sue him because every thing you have is fried? You have no computer, no telephone, no car, no electricity, nothing. It's like the perfect scam........
Smilingreen
Known around here
I can protect my whole house from surges for $300.00. It's made by Siemens and it is UL and Canadian UL listed.
As an Amazon Associate IPCamTalk earns from qualifying purchases.
Ssayer
BIT Beta Team
We need to buy one, cut it open and expose the guy for the scam artist he really is. Chances are it only has a few MOV's in it.
But think about it. Say you sell 50,000 pieces. You then take all that money and head for the ocean, buy a sail boat and sail off into the sunset. A big EMP happens and every single one of them fails. The connected world as we know it exists no more. How would you track the guy down to get your money back or sue him because every thing you have is fried? You have no computer, no telephone, no car, no electricity, nothing. It's like the perfect scam........
Karma would be if he puts all that money into Bitcoin...
Gargoile
Getting comfortable
Correct It will not protect anything from the pulse past the electrical box to your devices. And EMP is basically a reverse radio transmission. From the sky to the antennas which is all the electrical wiring in your house to your TV, computer, toaster, etc.
If there is ever a Emp attack, we are all screwed anyway and If you bought one and it did not work, do you think you will be able to hunt them down for the warranty? Ha, That's like the Funeral Director trying to sell you a watertight Casket, did anybody ever check if its working? 
Meanwhile, I was able to pull the testing data on these units, Its all based on Military specs and that keyword is pounded into all the advertising. I did a glance on it but got real bored at about second base. If anybody wants to dig deep and translate here it is.
Meanwhile, I was able to pull the testing data on these units, Its all based on Military specs and that keyword is pounded into all the advertising. I did a glance on it but got real bored at about second base. If anybody wants to dig deep and translate here it is.If there is ever a Emp attack, we are all screwed anyway and If you bought one and it did not work, do you think you will be able to hunt them down for the warranty? Ha, That's like the Funeral Director trying to sell you a watertight Casket, did anybody ever check if its working?
When this thread appeared that was the first thing I read. I’m going to keep this really simple because it would take a very long time to explain and type on a 5” smart phone!
It’s possible I missed something in the test reports but from a quick glance. None of the purported tests actually mimic a EMP scenario based on anything coming close to a EMP / CME.
The tests generally speaking relate to how SPD’s are tested to obtain UL listing / certification.
As noted earlier on my example of seeing first hand at FPE (Federal Pioneer Electric) of two massive 250 - 500 KVA transformers arching and exploding which directly mimic (in a small way) what a EMP / EMF would and can do to anything electrical / electronic.
People have to stand back and really think how much power (voltage) it takes to generate lightning and the same to arc across the (air) sky!
Now consider in this very specific example of this power generation plant. Two huge transformers that are in a sealed room not connected to anything else and just so happens to create a mini EMP?!? The EMF penetrated concrete, steel, insulation, drywall, wood, more than 2 miles in radius!
Induced voltage and the byproduct of EMF & EMI literally blew out all the breakers in half the building.
The only reason the entire building wasn’t damage is the fact E1 - E3 are very directional and short lived based on the source.
Obviously distance helps so does what physical barriers are present. In the one area that wasn’t damaged guess why it had limited damage?!?
Because that one section had floor to ceiling fencing stacked up! The same chain link fencing you see all around power stations.
That’s just truly dumb luck . . .
Smilingreen
Known around here
"The tests generally speaking relate to how SPD’s are tested to obtain UL listing / certification."
They don't have an UL or CUL listing on their device/s. If I was to connect one of those things to my electrical service, if it caught on fire and the insurance inspector finds it was the cause of the fire and the device was not UL listed, there is a possibility they could reject my claim. Every device that plugs into a 120VAC wall receptacle in my house has a UL or CUL listing on it. Every appliance connected to electricity in my house has a UL or CUL listing on it.
They like to throw out the phrase "Conforms to UL 1449", but in the legal world , "conforms" and "listed" are worlds apart. Conforms means another manufacturer has made a device similar to theirs, they got a UL listing on their device, so based off of simularitity in design and function, EMP is basically piggybacking off of someone else. If the Device has a UL Listing sticker on it, that means the manufacturer's device has been sent to a UL testing lab, has been destructive and non-destructive tested and meets all of the strenuous testing of a certain device classification. As long as they have been in business, they should have had a UL listing on their devices by now, especially in the US. Either they have tried and their device failed testing one or more times, or they already know their device design and components used will not pass a non-destructive and destructive testing, so they never bothered to spend the money. Either way, I wouldn't buy one. The name of their product is deceptive.
I listened to an interview with a retired General that went into business to try and beef up equipment for things like EMP. He was really concerned about the electric grid and infrastructure. He said that cellphones and cars (recent ones) were less susceptible...I forgot the reasoning. But, it made sense at the time. Newer chips are less susceptible, but our infrastructure is running on old hardware.
Kinda like in the 90s my mother wiped a pc drive because the pc was on the floor and she vacuumed next to it. Nowadays it's nearly impossible to wipe a disk with a magnet. I tried it a while back and looked it up. Disk drives are much more resistant to magnetic fields messing up the stored data than they used to be.
If I get time this weekend I'll post the podcast. I'd be curious if anyone can shoot holes in the general's logic.
Kinda like in the 90s my mother wiped a pc drive because the pc was on the floor and she vacuumed next to it. Nowadays it's nearly impossible to wipe a disk with a magnet. I tried it a while back and looked it up. Disk drives are much more resistant to magnetic fields messing up the stored data than they used to be.
If I get time this weekend I'll post the podcast. I'd be curious if anyone can shoot holes in the general's logic.
Edit to add: did a quick search and found a write up...not so sure about cars because those chips are more dated, but current cellphones may be fine, though they only tested 2:
SEMPRE FINDS SMARTPHONES SURVIVE A NUCLEAR EMP
/PRNewswire/ -- SEMPRE, the technology company created to secure America's critical infrastructure, today announced that in the course of testing its new...
www.prnewswire.com
Without hearing the podcast I really can't say what information was shared and his points were. I'll remind everyone here when the two bombs dropped on Japan there wasn't a lot of IC's and transistors. Almost everything was analog, tube, and very simple circuits.
There isn't a piece of electronic hardware the average person uses that wouldn't be impacted by a real EMP from a 20 ~ 50 KMS nuclear air burst.
There's a reason all of the so called dooms day preppers are buying up older vehicles. Because those without electronics ignition will continue to operate just fine. You have a current vehicle that has no less than ten CPU's and drive by wire pedal, steering wheel - It's Toast!
As it relates to the electrical grid depending upon where it is in North America its old. The best example is the so called next 9-11 attack which was caused by dozens of failures by man and machine. The grid went down and took down NYC, Ontario, and several other States.
Why???
Because nobody bothered maintain, test, validate, and update the infrastructure!
The end result was a dramatic cascading effect of things tripping and not recovering. All of the back ups and so called fail over mechanisms either didn't work or were tested to validate they would. In the polar opposite you had old ass equipment that simply were out of spec and not capable of operating and were literally teetering on dying anyways.
In one State they conducted a post mortem to identify all the issues and faults. The vast majority was the lack of basic maintenance such as inspecting transformers for aging and leakage. In other areas which millions can relate because it happens every day across the United States is the lack of tree trimming.
Every year there are hundreds of outages simply by trees breaking cables to shorting the same because the canopy was allowed to grow beyond a safe distance. In other areas which almost every POCO can relate and again has to do with simply Checking your network is the lack of grounding!
People have and continue to run around stealing copper grounding wire because its cheap money!
Whelps, if there's nothing to shunt to ground because said ground wire is missing due to a low life thief. What's going to happen when there's an over voltage condition that's supposed to shunt to ground???
Boom . . .
In other cases where the line has explosive over current protection. You guessed it no one bothered to inspect the same and these safety devices failed to operate (break open) when called upon during this cascading fault. Than, you have the human element of stupid where so called 30 year old professionals.
Had no freaking clue what to do and the Break Out book was no where to be seen??? You've worked there for 30 plus years and you don't know the SOP?? Worse, you don't have one on hand that's up to date to share to Bob who only has ten seconds of belt time???
At the end of the day if anything serious was to happen North America is ill equipped to handle it. This is proven every year by every major natural disaster that comes to everyone that see wild fires, tornadoes, earth quakes, floods, snow bomb, to hurricanes.
Every year FEMA and everyone else is running around like blind mice?!?!
One only needs to see how everyone around the world has reacted or the lack there of to any of the viruses floating around from Avian Flu, Swine Flu, Covid-19, Monkey Pox, etc etc.
The bottom line is if one single nuclear bomb of sufficient size was to be detonated over North America at least 100 KMS all of us would be in the stone age.
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You sidestepped the point. They tested an iPhone 12 and Samsung s21 ultra and both were immune to the EMP they subjected them to (though what level EMP?). Does that mean other chips have some level of immunity? IDK. But it's another reason to be pissed at our govt. They should have been doing this type of test and letting the public know.Without hearing the podcast I really can't say what information was shared and his points were. I'll remind everyone here when the two bombs dropped on Japan there wasn't a lot of IC's and transistors. Almost everything was analog, tube, and very simple circuits.
There isn't a piece of electronic hardware the average person uses that wouldn't be impacted by a real EMP from a 20 ~ 50 KMS nuclear air burst.
There's a reason all of the so called dooms day preppers are buying up older vehicles. Because those without electronics ignition will continue to operate just fine. You have a current vehicle that has no less than ten CPU's and drive by wire pedal, steering wheel - It's Toast!
As it relates to the electrical grid depending upon where it is in North America its old. The best example is the so called next 9-11 attack which was caused by dozens of failures by man and machine. The grid went down and took down NYC, Ontario, and several other States.
Why???
Because nobody bothered maintain, test, validate, and update the infrastructure!
The end result was a dramatic cascading effect of things tripping and not recovering. All of the back ups and so called fail over mechanisms either didn't work or were tested to validate they would. In the polar opposite you had old ass equipment that simply were out of spec and not capable of operating and were literally teetering on dying anyways.
In one State they conducted a post mortem to identify all the issues and faults. The vast majority was the lack of basic maintenance such as inspecting transformers for aging and leakage. In other areas which millions can relate because it happens every day across the United States is the lack of tree trimming.
Every year there are hundreds of outages simply by trees breaking cables to shorting the same because the canopy was allowed to grow beyond a safe distance. In other areas which almost every POCO can relate and again has to do with simply Checking your network is the lack of grounding!
People have and continue to run around steeling copper grounding wire because its cheap money!
Whelps, if there's nothing to shunt to ground because said ground wire is missing due to a low life thief. What's going to happen when there's an over voltage condition that's supposed to shut to ground???
Boom . . .
In other cases where the line has explosive over current protection. You guessed it no one bothered to inspect the same and these safety devices failed to operate (break open) when called upon during this cascading fault. Than, you have the human element of stupid where so called 30 year old professionals.
Had no freaking clue what to do and the Break Out book was no where to be seen??? You've worked there for 30 plus years and you don't know the SOP?? Worse, you don't have one on hand that's up to date to share to Bob who only has ten seconds of belt time???
At the end of the day if anything serious was to happen North America is ill equipped to handle it. This is proven every year by every major natural disaster that comes to everyone that see wild fires, tornadoes, earth quakes, floods, snow bomb, to hurricanes.
Every year FEMA and everyone else is running around like blind mice?!?!
One only needs to see how everyone around the world has reacted or the lack there of to any of the viruses floating around from Avian Flu, Swine Flu, Covid-19, Monkey Pox, etc etc.
The bottom line is if one single nuclear bomb of sufficient size was to be detonated over North America at least 100 KMS all of us would be in the stone age.
All I'm saying is that we may not have a complete Jericho (television show) scenario. And I think it would take several nukes. The US is a big place.
To your overall point I agree, if significant infrastructure were taken down, we'd be in serious trouble.
Some years ago I met a guy who trained first responders for events like this. He told me it's the things you take for granted. He said if they took out the sewage system in a place like Houston. We'd have cholera out breaks and such in a matter of days. It's terrifying. And after we've seen what the people in charge have done over the last 2 1/2 years, it's even more terrifying.
I get why the preppers are doing what they are doing. But, it's likely in a situation like that China will just move in and take over. They've already bought off or compromised all the politicians. How could they pass up all of our natural resources? It's scary stuff to think about.
sebastiantombs
Known around here
My best guess is that Li'l Kim will be the one to use and nuc for EMP. He doesn't have enough of them to destroy significant amount of the US so a few, well placed, with EMP being their designed use for maximum output, would be the most devastating. Of course, NK would probably up end coated with as 6" of glass and a radioactive wasteland for a few centuries, but I think he's crazy enough to try it.
The test in no way mimic a real or close to a EMP event. A person can literally buy a miniature EMP device to see for themselves the cause and effect of the same. These devices are no different from any boost / buck converter sold today or those transformers used in any high voltage device - think Microwave.
The big difference is people have simply repurposed the basic design principles for a specific use case.
Think: Tazer, Mouse Trap, Fencing, Bug Zapper, etc.
The one's sold on AliExpress and similar e-tailers are vast and plentiful and range in price from $20 ~ Skies the limit. As some of them are advertised for science projects think - Tesla Coils.
None of the so called EMP tests I've ever seen from consumer devices like this EMP Shield have shown induced (air gap) pulses vs a direct connection which is again related to a SPD / TVSS (Surge Protector). If anyone is motivated to buy any of these mini EMP devices you'll quickly find out the most basic things about electricity, EMI, RFI, and Induced EMF.
You take any portable radio and turn it on. Depending upon how powerful the EMP device is you'll quickly see and hear the radio offer anything that spans to Noise or hash to complete interruption of the radio broadcast. You take the same device and fire it off next to any bulb that spans a incandescent ~ Florescent, CFL, and LED. You'll quickly see the bulbs surge in brightness to blinking - flickering.
A EMP device close enough or of sufficient output power will quickly blow out any of the IC's inside of the LED.
You take the same Mini EMP and place it by anything electronic like the phone you noted. You'll quickly see the device will freeze to it displaying random things. In the worst case scenario if the device is powerful enough in the context of these little toys the cell phone will be damaged.
All of the above doesn't even come close to the disaster I saw first hand at FPE. It in no way even comes close to a direct over the head lightning strike which happens millions of times per year all over North America. If something so tiny and toy like is able to produce and generate such faults in a basic electrical device what do you think are the results of a real EMP Nuclear Explosion???
Those Amish will still be rocking and going on with life . . . Those who are still old school with regular toggle switches, incandescent bulbs, carborators, basic motors, relays, etc will be fine.
Everyone else is literally screwed and to your point never mind power which directly impacts everything else in the world.
No water, heat, cooling, sanitation, just things.
On a related tangent back in the day when I was growing up people grew their own food. They heated their homes with wood. Water came from a clean well or river and all bio waste diverted and sent to a holding tank / leaching field. Any food that couldn't be consumed fast enough or to help get us by was smoked, canned, salted. All of these food stuff helped the family unit to survive the long and brutal winters of the Arctic.
Having six months of food and clean water was just another day affair. Those who had enough room and finances to store 12 months of the same were truly prepared.
Today, everyone calls these people Preppers????
The reality is people have simply lost sight of the simple and old ways.
There are literally people (billions) that can't and don't know how to make fire??? The only thing that has allowed man kind to thrive, grow, and advance is the fact we were able to harness fire! The fact people in 2022 have no freaking clue how to do the same simply affirms there is going to be a huge culling when SHTF.
This was easily seen every day, every month, every year by the natural disasters that befall all of use around the world. As of this writing Texas as they say has seen a 1 in 1000 year flood??? This time last year they were saying that snow bomb that killed hundreds was a 1 in 50 year event???
Yet, this same State see's what every freaking year???
Tornado's . . . .
The fact one of the largest States in the country has no clue about basic power simply affirms (IF) a real EMP was to happen Texas would be gone.
I think we are talking past each other here. Scroll up and read the article I posted. General Spalding retired and now works for a company that in part seeks to harden our infrastructure against EMP. In the article they state they exposed an IPhone and a Samsung Galaxy directly to an EMP without any protection and they weren't damaged. In the interview I listened to, there was speculation that there was a reason (may be the circuitry is small enough to avoid the problem?).The test in no way mimic a real or close to a EMP event. A person can literally buy a miniature EMP device to see for themselves the cause and effect of the same. These devices are no different from any boost / buck converter sold today or those transformers used in any high voltage device - think Microwave.
The big difference is people have simply repurposed the basic design principles for a specific use case.
Think: Tazer, Mouse Trap, Fencing, Bug Zapper, etc.
The one's sold on AliExpress and similar e-tailers are vast and plentiful and range in price from $20 ~ Skies the limit. As some of them are advertised for science projects think - Tesla Coils.
None of the so called EMP tests I've ever seen from consumer devices like this EMP Shield have shown induced (air gap) pulses vs a direct connection which is again related to a SPD / TVSS (Surge Protector). If anyone is motivated to buy any of these mini EMP devices you'll quickly find out the most basic things about electricity, EMI, RFI, and Induced EMF.
You take any portable radio and turn it on. Depending upon how powerful the EMP device is you'll quickly see and hear the radio offer anything that spans to Noise or hash to complete interruption of the radio broadcast. You take the same device and fire it off next to any bulb that spans a incandescent ~ Florescent, CFL, and LED. You'll quickly see the bulbs surge in brightness to blinking - flickering.
A EMP device close enough or of sufficient output power will quickly blow out any of the IC's inside of the LED.
You take the same Mini EMP and place it by anything electronic like the phone you noted. You'll quickly see the device will freeze to it displaying random things. In the worst case scenario if the device is powerful enough in the context of these little toys the cell phone will be damaged.
All of the above doesn't even come close to the disaster I saw first hand at FPE. It in no way even comes close to a direct over the head lightning strike which happens millions of times per year all over North America. If something so tiny and toy like is able to produce and generate such faults in a basic electrical device what do you think are the results of a real EMP Nuclear Explosion???
Those Amish will still be rocking and going on with life . . . Those who are still old school with regular toggle switches, incandescent bulbs, carborators, basic motors, relays, etc will be fine.
Everyone else is literally screwed and to your point never mind power which directly impacts everything else in the world.
No water, heat, cooling, sanitation, just things.
On a related tangent back in the day when I was growing up people grew their own food. They heated their homes with wood. Water came from a clean well or river and all bio waste diverted and sent to a holding tank / leaching field. Any food that couldn't be consumed fast enough or to help get us by was smoked, canned, salted. All of these food stuff helped the family unit to survive the long and brutal winters of the Arctic.
Having six months of food and clean water was just another day affair. Those who had enough room and finances to store 12 months of the same were truly prepared.
Today, everyone calls these people Preppers????
The reality is people have simply lost sight of the simple and old ways.
There are literally people (billions) that can't and don't know how to make fire??? The only thing that has allowed man kind to thrive, grow, and advance is the fact we were able to harness fire! The fact people in 2022 have no freaking clue how to do the same simply affirms there is going to be a huge culling when SHTF.
This was easily seen every day, every month, every year by the natural disasters that befall all of use around the world. As of this writing Texas as they say has seen a 1 in 1000 year flood??? This time last year they were saying that snow bomb that killed hundreds was a 1 in 50 year event???
Yet, this same State see's what every freaking year???
Tornado's . . . .
The fact one of the largest States in the country has no clue about basic power simply affirms (IF) a real EMP was to happen Texas would be gone.
So, EMP may not be as catastrophic as it would have been 10 years ago...that's the point I was trying to make. Though cars still use very old 8 bit processors and I'd guess those would get fried.
This is just a random video illustrating my point of a toy like EMP device. Anyone can buy the same that spans toy like to serious tactical use from the Internet.
Pay special attention to the cell phone demo . . .
I can safely state what ever test the general conducted was flawed and not even based on common sense facts / science. Any grade school science project would have yielded the exact same results seen in this sample video. If one takes a few moments to Google what some people have done in the way of EMP testing and products.
You'll quickly find there are people who have some crazy hardware.
I don't recall the name of the one person who for no reason other than to learn about the cause and effects of EMP. He bought a whole bunch of retired commercial transformers you see at real power generation station.
Long story short he blew out half the city in his town!
I'll go with the company with the 56000 square ft facility that has been doing this work since 2009 over some random guy on youtube. about it this way, they make money off of hardening against EMP. Why would they lie about phones having EMP resistance?
Though, the article should have listed what ASTM test standard was used, or the pulse characteristics, distances etc.
Though, the article should have listed what ASTM test standard was used, or the pulse characteristics, distances etc.
And, I don't think anything is immune. The closer you get the higher the pulse and anything will be fried even old school vacuum tubes. The Carrington event took down telegraph lines. But IDK how it compares, happened over a long period vs. Emp from a nuke which would be pretty quick.
I did a little more reading and there's a guy claiming he thinks these metal backings they are using provide an internal Faraday cage. Another claims that the wire traces are smaller now and also helps with the problem....I don't have time to do a deep dive on this.
Why would anyone lie about something to make money?!?
Your kidding right???
This entire thread is about a company selling, marketing, and lying about how their product offers EMP protection!
The world is filled with grifters selling hope and dreams to people who are ignorant or less than bright. There are literally millions of examples of companies releasing a product that says one thing and doesn’t even come close to meeting said claim.
If that wasn’t true every major nation wouldn’t bother having a consumer product protection agency in place.
Are there companies that actually test, design, and sell EMP protection - Yes! Almost every one of them is directly related, funded, R&D to the military.
As to your last statement about Why they don’t list out the test criteria or the actual hard data. It’s because the results are going to show incorrect testing methods or outcomes that are not positive.
The video I shared is the easily understood by anyone. There’s no slight of hand or word salad being spouted. You can clearly see that tiny arc and extremely high frequency is causing havoc on the cell phone.
This simple example proves a toy like device in close proximity can and will cause problems. When people talk about impacting a larger area at greater distance obviously that toy would have zero impact.
That’s not the point . . .
This simply affirms what ever test they did wasn’t strong / close enough. It also says they didn’t follow any meaningful blind tests that are peer reviewed by anyone else.
Because my FPE example which comes no where close to a nuclear bomb killed everything in half the building!
As others noted, if we should ever see a nuclear event power isn’t going to be the first thing coming to mind as a priority.