Best cameras with cross platform/browser support for a Linux user?

[jasauders]

Hi there, friends. Just joined here -- figured it was time given a huge magnitude of my search results came back to this forum. So yeah, hi.

I have what I feel is a unique circumstance, though maybe not, I guess we'll find out. I work in IT and have been using Linux for several years exclusively. My CCTV setup at home is a mish-mash, running Motion (from the software repositories) on my Ubuntu Server which pulls in JPG feeds from my two Vivotek cameras. This takes just a single jpg snapshot during an event. This serves as an "event identifier" to me to sort out false alarms vs, oh wait, something actually happened there, better check the video feeds, etc etc. Meanwhile, the cameras themselves are running Save-To-NAS functionality by recording 24/7 to the server in their own specific directories (i.e. /media/vault/front-cam-video, /media/vault/front-cam-motion, etc). So the MJPG stream is being utilized by "Motion" at a low FPS while a higher FPS is being ran for full time feeds. This way I can browse through actual JPG snapshots by hitting next/next/next/next and when need be, click on the corresponding video feed to those motion JPG captures. Works well, quite bulletproof, no fuss. Just the way I like it.

My dad recently asked me to set up a CCTV system at his house. He's starting with 2 cameras, and is unlikely to deviate from that given the way his property is laid out. Being fully aware of my IT background and knowing I can fix things should they come up, whereas my dad is a very different person who's mechanically minded - not computer minded - I acknowledge that my setup might not be the most logical fit.

The catch comes in with what he runs on his laptop - after a multitude of frustrations and issues over the years, his curiosity of what was running on my laptop evolved into a deeper discussion. To cut to the chase, he runs Ubuntu on his laptop now and is a happy user. This brings up several concerns of mine given he wants a CCTV system now since a lot of CCTV systems, in my opinion, suffer from the way things are laid out with proprietary playback programs and exclusive exported formats.

I'm on the fence with what to do with his setup. If I go the route of an NVR (I'm eyeing up Hikvision whether I go NVR+cams or PC/NAS+cams mostly based on my research), here are my concerns. I'm curious if anybody here knows the answers to fill these gaps.
1) Do Hikvision NVRs support 24/7 recording with event detection? i.e. records 24/7 but in the UI lists there was a motion event at 1:30 AM and 2:44 AM, etc?
2) Do Hikvision NVRs export to an exclusive video format? Or do they export to something like .mp4, .mkv, .avi, etc?
3) I understand Hikvision requires a browser plugin to view the live feed, which really only works in Windows (from all user accounts, the Mac and Linux versions are so back-dated that they pretty much never work). Hikvision cameras at least support RTSP streams to view the live feeds in video players such as VLC, right?

If I go the route of a PC/NAS setup, here are my concerns:
1) What format do Hikvision cameras record in when set to save-to-NAS mode? .mp4, .mkv, .avi, or something proprietary that requires a special video player (that I can only imagine is Windows-only based) to view back past feeds?
2) I read a lot about Hikvision having issues addressing network volumes larger than 250 GB (or so). Has this bug been fixed, or are people still having issues with this?

Of course, if there's a different manufacturer that better supports what I'm after than Hikvision, I'm all ears. As of now, I know Vivotek cameras would be a solid win, as my Vivotek's record in .mp4 format using save-to-NAS on my own server. I view live feeds in custom VLC launchers I created that allows one-click access to view the RTSP stream of those cameras. It's been a very problem-free experience in the 2 years I've ran them. I have a script built to delete video feeds older than 30 days every night at midnight. So far, so good.

More and more I am leaning towards going the PC/NAS route as I already have a computer available that he can use as his CCTV server (a few bucks saved), plus given my setup is already fine tuned, up and running, etc., it's a matter of copying/pasting the scripts over, which would make things pretty straight forward. Not to mention it's seemingly a safer comfort zone to deal with in my efforts on both a technical and philosophical level to avoid locked down headaches surrounding exclusive feeds and whatnot. I simply don't know enough about certain manufacturers to be aware of what they save as, what they export as, what they save-to-NAS as, etc to just arbitrarily pull the trigger on a Hikvision or Dahua or Axis, etc.

All insight of appreciated. Thanks for your time.

 

[fenderman]

Dont over think it...if he is only going to use 2 cameras simply get some hikvisions with a NVR. You can record 24/7 with event motion, but if you want to see the motion events on the timeline I believe it can only be seen on the video out of the NVR not via the web interface.
You can also use a cheap 200-300 dollar pc to run hikvisions ivms (they also have a linux beta, but never tried it)...
My personal favorite is blue iris on a windows pc. You can pickup a quality i5 haswell fourth gen pc for 300, tough for your needs an i3 haswell will be more than enough. Nothing will happen to you if you use windows, I promise. It will just make life easy and give you tons of options

You can also buy a cheap synology/qnap nas https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/DS215j
That unit includes 2 licenses for their surveillance station..since he will likely not need more than two cameras, this solution is cheap and simple, though if he wants to display in realtime on a monitor, you will need a unit that outputs hdmi...

 

[jasauders]

Dont over think it...if he is only going to use 2 cameras simply get some hikvisions with a NVR. You can record 24/7 with event motion, but if you want to see the motion events on the timeline I believe it can only be seen on the video out of the NVR not via the web interface.
You can also use a cheap 200-300 dollar pc to run hikvisions ivms (they also have a linux beta, but never tried it)...
My personal favorite is blue iris on a windows pc. You can pickup a quality i5 haswell fourth gen pc for 300, tough for your needs an i3 haswell will be more than enough. Nothing will happen to you if you use windows, I promise. It will just make life easy and give you tons of options

You can also buy a cheap synology/qnap nas https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/DS215j
That unit includes 2 licenses for their surveillance station..since he will likely not need more than two cameras, this solution is cheap and simple, though if he wants to display in realtime on a monitor, you will need a unit that outputs hdmi...

I appreciate your stance and insight. Truth be told, I have already ruled out the idea of using Windows. I have a custom built computer already that would serve these needs - installing Windows only adds an unnecessary cost for that license. As a result, that's why I'm up in the air between just running save-to-NAS on the rig I have or suggesting he get an NVR. I have considered other avenues, such as Windows/Blue Iris, but I begin to question what the point is with that when I could just get an NVR for that price.

Really what it comes down to most isn't so much the this, that, the other, but what cameras best suit the needs of the situation at hand. Non-exclusive video formats are a must. I could just toss in a monitor as well (I have a few sitting around) to pair with the NAS and have that be the viewing station, but it'll be a little cumbersome. The location for the box is going to be in the garage, which sits under the house. A pretty snazzy hot rod sits in there, so I was hoping to make things a little more convenient for him by having remote playback of past events instead of squeezing between the wall mounted shelf that already exists where the box is going and the car - an area that would be standing only. I hate to suggest that given his issues with his knees. NAS wise I can just share the surveillance directory out through Samba as I have with my setup. Only takes about 30 seconds to do and would allow him to view things while sitting on his recliner upstairs.

So really it comes down to the video formats more than anything when the cameras are saving to NAS, exporting from NVR, etc. I can work around most (all that I can think of anyway) shortcomings outside of that.

EDIT - You mention the Hikvisions only support past event playback from the box itself. Given the fact we'll be dealing with the second half of a 1,000 ft box of Cat6 cable, I'm thinking I might be able to wire things up away from the car and over to the work bench. This might be more do-able, though I'll have to see. Is it common for NVRs to only allow past event playback through the box itself? I suppose that can act as a security measure - hence why I'm curious. If that's the case, then literally the only headache I can see happening is how the videos are exported. If they're dumped in an exclusive format and he wants to archive them, but can't ever see them on his laptop, that's an issue. If it exports as a more common format, we might be talkin' then.

 

[fenderman]

What are the specs on the custom built system. Often folks use older systems that are power hogs and as a result spend more money paying the power company than it would cost to replace the system.
The point of running software vms is that it is much more customizable than a standalone NVR particularity when it comes to alerts and scheduling. If you just need basic recording its fine, however, I personally would never be satisfied with an NVR.

 

[jasauders]

What are the specs on the custom built system. Often folks use older systems that are power hogs and as a result spend more money paying the power company than it would cost to replace the system.
The point of running software vms is that it is much more customizable than a standalone NVR particularity when it comes to alerts and scheduling. If you just need basic recording its fine, however, I personally would never be satisfied with an NVR.

It's a 4th gen i3, 4GB of RAM. It'd be more than enough for his needs because it's actually more powerful than my server while being somewhat similar. My server:

2nd gen i3, 4GB of RAM
Runs Ubuntu Server 14.04
Runs an Ubuntu Server 14.04 VM
Runs ownCloud, MariaDB, IRC, Samba, software RAID, serves as our backup system for all of my systems + my wife's laptop, Subsonic music streaming, video streaming to the upstairs HTPC running Kodi, surveillance wise "Motion" @ 2 FPS, full time save-to-NAS records @ 10 FPS.

and my server still hovers around 50% RAM usage (even with the VM) and ~15% CPU on a bad day (most of that being Motion rendering the MJPG stream to process events). My server, two POE cameras, router, modem, 24 port gig switch all pull from the same UPS. The UPS hovers around 60w draw. My server and the other system in question would have the same power supply - some sort of ultra green efficient PSU I struck a deal on and picked up several a few months ago.

Given his system would be faster and run substantially less, yet my system is already running pretty lean despite what I run on it, I'm confident it'd be fine. He'd likely be looking at the same 2 FPS Motion + 10 FPS full time record feeds that I set up.

When he and I had the discussion about what he wants out of it, he said I just want to make sure if some knucklehead busts out the van window in the driveway, or something like that, that it's on camera. I suggested full time recording, he said perfect - that's all I need. (lately some punk kids have been making a game out of breaking car windows, and he literally just bought a new van days ago - hence his interest in cameras)

I find myself still eyeing the NVR route for reasons you may not prefer NVRs. It's a simple box that does one thing and does it well. Given he's looking for your "standard" recording features** and no additional knobs and whatnot to turn on new features, an NVR makes sense.

** = If he can get 10 FPS full time records with an easy to navigate interface to draw up those past feeds, that'd be a win, barring the export video format is done in a flexible manner. This, I'm certain, can be achieved with my NAS idea, hence why I'm on the fence as I have a lot of experience with one yet minimal experience with the other.

 

[fenderman]

For his basic needs a cheap 4ch hikvision NVR is more than sufficient...as stated with the hikvision the events are not distinguished if you do 24/7 recording...It doesnt seem like he will be reviewing it on a daily basis, so if and when something happens it will be easy enough to simply go to the unit and pull the footage.
I am not sure how the dahua units handle this...someone with a dahua NVR can chime in..

 

[jasauders]

For his basic needs a cheap 4ch hikvision NVR is more than sufficient...as stated with the hikvision the events are not distinguished if you do 24/7 recording...It doesnt seem like he will be reviewing it on a daily basis, so if and when something happens it will be easy enough to simply go to the unit and pull the footage.
I am not sure how the dahua units handle this...someone with a dahua NVR can chime in..

It seems like an obvious "given" that an end user should have a way to identify when actual motion was taking place despite the cameras simply recording 24/7. If not, then that's an area where I could have a leg up on the NAS route, as that's how I leverage Motion - singular JPG snapshots for motion events, open one image, hit next/next/next, in a matter of 60 seconds you just had a glimpse of what happened throughout the entire day. I would hope that actual CCTV manufacturers would have some sort of answer to allow users to identify when actual motion took place despite full time recordings. Otherwise this is going to make the decision quite easy. I'll keep doing some digging and see what comes out of it. Probably won't be ordering anything for about a week anyways.

Thanks for your help my friend. I appreciate it.

Anybody else have any insight to add? I'm all ears!

 

[fenderman]

It seems like an obvious "given" that an end user should have a way to identify when actual motion was taking place despite the cameras simply recording 24/7. If not, then that's an area where I could have a leg up on the NAS route, as that's how I leverage Motion - singular JPG snapshots for motion events, open one image, hit next/next/next, in a matter of 60 seconds you just had a glimpse of what happened throughout the entire day. I would hope that actual CCTV manufacturers would have some sort of answer to allow users to identify when actual motion took place despite full time recordings. Otherwise this is going to make the decision quite easy. I'll keep doing some digging and see what comes out of it. Probably won't be ordering anything for about a week anyways.

Thanks for your help my friend. I appreciate it.

Anybody else have any insight to add? I'm all ears!

Most end uses simply view the footage on the NVR when and if something occurs...the NVR video out timeline does indicate when the motion occurs.

 

[jasauders]

Most end uses simply view the footage on the NVR when and if something occurs...the NVR video out timeline does indicate when the motion occurs.

Yeah - thinking about this more, I can see that. It makes sense - that's how it works at work (school district) anyways. I just always had the flexibility with my setup to sit on the deck, by the fire pit, on the couch, etc and play literally everything back. Tarnished my mind a bit.

I totally forgot that earlier today a friendly user on another forum emailed me a sample clip of an exported video file from their Hikvision 8 channel NVR. It seems Hikvision decided to be smart and export to a regular olde MP4 file - something that played just fine on my Ubuntu laptop with multiple video applications. At this point unless there's anything else that offers a better bang-for-buck, a small Hikvision NVR and two matching cameras might be the ticket.

EDIT - It looks like the highest resolution the 4 channel Hikvision NVR records in is 1080. That's good, though some of these prices on these higher MP cameras are pretty attractive as well. The 8 channel might be something he may want to consider, but we'll see.

I suppose when an NVR says "recording resolutions supported - 5mp, 3mp, 1080, etc etc" that it means it can do up to 5 megapixel cameras PER channel? I'm not seeing any other technical specs in terms of what it can support. Can it support 5mp cams per channel? If so, what resolution? Is it limited to say 15 fps or am I to assume it'll support full 30 fps @ 5mp per channel? (assuming the cameras can do 5 mp/30fps recording). Like I'm just wondering where the bottleneck would be - am I to take the cameras capabilities as gospel or will the NVR itself have lesser recording capabilities than the cams?

 

[fenderman]

The hikvisions will only do 20fps at 3mp..that is way more than enough...15 is the standard.
Yes, the mini NVR will only do 1080p..The NVR's is limited by its incoming bandwidth rating..not an issue with two cameras...1080 is a very good option..the 3mp hikvision add little increase to the pixles per inch, rather it only increases the vertical FOV, which often is not needed.
a native 1080p camera will perform better in low light than the older 3mp hikvision models....the new 2mp and 4mp hikvisions have improved low light..
Best thing to do is read through the posts...look at the samples...

 

[jasauders]

Just to clarify - the NVR is limited by the bandwidth rating. So when the 4 channel NVR is listed at 25 mbps, that's 25 mbps divided by the number of cameras connected to it, suggesting it will handle 2 cameras at higher resolution than 4 cameras.

That makes sense. I guess I just need to choose the NVR appropriately and focus mostly on the cameras and their capabilities.

Is there by chance any sort of chart out in the wild to suggest what mbps I can expect a camera recording 24/7 to pull when running at certain combinations of framerate vs resolution? (mostly for my own curiosity).

Again, thanks for your insight so far.

EDIT - Well this calculator is kind of neat.

 

[fenderman]

The bitrate limitations are separate and distinct from the resolution limitation......this will not be an issue with 2 cameras...even 4...
The bitrate is not depended on frame rates or resolution...the interface lets you set a max bitrate...a higher frame rate or resolution will requires you to set a higher bitrate to get the same images as lower fps and or/res....most folks run their cams at 4096kbps i have not been able to see any benefit of setting it higher I run all my cams at 4096...dont get hungup on the max bandwidth...
These numbers are on the very high side..but the pdf provides an explanation of how it works
http://oversea-download.hikvision.com/uploadfile/doc/NVR Camera Capacity based on Bit Rate.pdf

 

[Del Boy]

I run most of mine at VBR 4096 no probs. +1 Don't get hungup on max bandwidth, it's a red-herring for lots of people.

fenderman knows his stuff, I can't add much else apart from agreeing.

 

[jasauders]

Been looking around online at some other things. Dahua certainly has my eye. I find it a little goofy that Hikvision's 8 port NVR is seemingly 8 ports yet only 4 are POE. Dahua seems to have an 8 port NVR where all 8 ports are POE. I know this won't matter in dad's case but again I'm simultaneously checking out gear for a potential upgrade on my own system into the future.

Besides Hikvision, what else in that price range is worth looking at? I'm still having trouble grasping which brands are meh and which ones are obvious go-to's.

 

[fenderman]

If the hikvision NVR you are looking at has 8 ports then they are all poe....

 

[jasauders]

If the hikvision NVR you are looking at has 8 ports then they are all poe....

http://wrightwoodsurveillance.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67_97&products_id=300

Says 8 port, 4 port POE.

 

[fenderman]

http://wrightwoodsurveillance.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67_97&products_id=300

Says 8 port, 4 port POE.

That is 8ch, 4 port poe NVR. It does not have 8 ports only 4. The other 4 cameras have to run off a separate switch.

 

[jasauders]

That is 8ch, 4 port poe NVR. It does not have 8 ports only 4. The other 4 cameras have to run off a separate switch.

Gosh darn it fenderman. Stop being so smart and observant.

For kicks, got any other brands that you'd rival Hikvision? I'd just like to look around at others. I feel like I focused on Hikvision almost exclusively in my digging so far largely due to not knowing what other brands are good contenders to compare against.

 

[fenderman]

Gosh darn it fenderman. Stop being so smart and observant.

For kicks, got any other brands that you'd rival Hikvision? I'd just like to look around at others. I feel like I focused on Hikvision almost exclusively in my digging so far largely due to not knowing what other brands are good contenders to compare against.

Dahua and hikvision are the top two value brands.....match the cameras to the NVR..dont mix and match..

 

[jasauders]

Dahua and hikvision are the top two value brands.....match the cameras to the NVR..dont mix and match..

Oh certainly. That's why I was putting my oomph into research now so I'm confident when I go "all in" with the cams/nvr/etc. With the video sample I was sent, I was really surprised by the Hikvision camera quaity. I had no reason to doubt it, I just didn't expect the video feed to look that decent. I'll probably go with Hikvision in the end, despite some of their issues (platform-specific browser plugins, an unfixed bug in save-to-nas feature, etc). But those things I either won't use with an NVR or I can work around with custom vlc.desktop files for remote viewing -- avoiding the browser plugin nonsense altogether.

For me personally, I'll probably get a larger NVR since 4 cameras is my plan, but I hate to 'cap' it there. I suppose I could rig other cams up elsewhere, I just prefer to have a cleaner more straight forward setup. Maybe that's a non-issue though. I'll figure that part out when I am actually in the market to upgrade.