Big camera dilemma. Opinion needed

[weslyr]

Hi All,

I have a dilemma and I would love to hear your opinion on this.

I'm currently in the process of putting camera's on every spot (for security reasons).
I've decided settling with 8 camera's (for now).

I'm evaluating some cheap/decent IP cameras and I currently have selected Foscam C1 and Foscam FI9851P, because they are 720HD, WiFi and very affordable ($80 a piece. i'm on a tight budget. I like the WiFi option so I don't need wires all the way to the router or nvr).
So in total that would be 8 x $80 = $640 for the eight cameras. With the required NVR and an Hard Drive ($100 + $60), it would bring the total costs to about $800,- (I already have a Netgear Nighthawk AC1900 router so that cost is not needed)

Now here comes the problem:
My friend is currently selling 8 camera's (700 tvl, so no ip camera's. Brand is Elec) including an 8 channel 1TB DVR (with network capabilities for remote viewing) for $400.

That's 50% less!?! What would you do?

 

[fenderman]

@weslyr Welcome to the forum...dont do any of those...My advice is to run ethernet and use quality cameras from hikvision or dahua...foscam is junk. Wifi is NOT reliable. You dont have to run each ethernet back to the router..you use a poe switch and run a single cable back to the router or ANY network connection...
Dont be cheap or you WILL regret it later.
If you still refuse to run IP, then at lest go with something like this hd over coax system.
http://www.costco.com/Lorex-8-Channel-HD-1080p-Security-System-with-2TB-HDD-and-8-1080p-Cameras-.product.100218592.html
You will have to homerun each camera back to the DVR.
700tvl is TERRIBLE quality.

 

[bp2008]

I would not recommend (to anyone!) to run coax for a new camera system. If you are going to run cables, at least make it network cable and build an IP camera system. It may cost more initially, but it is much more future-proof to have network cable run everywhere than coax.

Also, 8 wireless cams will be nothing but trouble, no matter the brand. Foscams have their own problems besides always being used on wifi, so I recommend you skip those too. You might get away with one or two cams on wifi, but even that would murder your wifi performance for everything else. Remember you still have to run power cable to the cams, so it might as well be network cable providing the power (and data!).

 

[corkangel76]

FOScams are crap.... NEVER do WiFi cameras, Stick with Hikvision or Dahua, 2MP minimum, use a POE switch, and be done with it, reliable, safe, and secure.

 

[Brian Bain]

I am just thinking about getting my system also and I can't see how WiFi could even work. Sustained througput on a wireless system where every detail could matter smells of trouble. Since you need to power the camera anyway how about going with PoE?

 

[weslyr]

Thank you for the much appreciated input guys!
I will re-select the cameras and will look into Dahua and Hikvision.
I will also give up my Wifi idea and give in to Ethernet cables (8 wireless cams do seem a bit too much. Right now I only have experience with one wifi cam).

At first I didn't think 700tvl quality was that bad (i looked at some review sites. Ofcourse you cannot read a license plate with 700tvl, but faces should be visible).
Nevertheless I'm going to consult my friend on the prices of 1100tvl cameras (that should equal the quality-field).
I wonder how big the gap will be then between the ipcamera-costs and the CCTV-costs.
If the difference is 40% or bigger,....then I will have to seriously consider that option.

I will let you guys know on the answer and the calculation

 

[fenderman]

Thank you for the much appreciated input guys!
I will re-select the cameras and will look into Dahua and Hikvision.
I will also give up my Wifi idea and give in to Ethernet cables (8 wireless cams do seem a bit too much. Right now I only have experience with one wifi cam).

At first I didn't think 700tvl quality was that bad (i looked at some review sites. Ofcourse you cannot read a license plate with 700tvl, but faces should be visible).
Nevertheless I'm going to consult my friend on the prices of 1100tvl cameras (that should equal the quality-field).
I wonder how big the gap will be then between the ipcamera-costs and the CCTV-costs.
If the difference is 40% or bigger,....then I will have to seriously consider that option.

I will let you guys know on the answer and the calculation

1100tvl will not equal the quality field..any analog camera measure in tvl should not even be a consideration. The CVI system I posted is 1080p...its 500 dollars...if that is too steep then buy one IP camera at a time with an sd card slot. Wasting money on low end junk is just that.

 

[LittleBrother]

Please for the love of us all listen to all the posts above. Lots of good ideas. I know you want to do wifi and despite some posts above saying not to you may be thinking you can anyway. But if you do you probably won't be happy, and if you are happy it's probably because you won't know any better--not know what your system could be.

Bite the bullet, run ethernet, and now you're cabled in for cameras now, five years from now, or ten years from now. Strong, reliable, wired connection using power over ethernet.

If you have to sacrifice the number of cameras do it, it's a no brainer. Honestly the field of view on a lot of the cheap cameras is really small anyway.

 

[digger11]

Hikvision 3mp cameras can be found on Aliexpress from reputable vendors for about what you seem to be willing to spend on the Foscam cameras (that you would probably end up hating).

 

[weslyr]

Well, my I asked my friend the price of 1000tvl cameras and his first estimation is $1200 (for 8 outdoor dome cameras of brand Enforcer, including DVR).
This is quite a gap with my preferred $500 to $800 budget. Which means the decision has been made (thanks to you guys): I will go the IP camera way!

1100tvl will not equal the quality field..any analog camera measure in tvl should not even be a consideration. The CVI system I posted is 1080p...its 500 dollars...if that is too steep then buy one IP camera at a time with an sd card slot. Wasting money on low end junk is just that.

Really? I thought that 1100tvl could really compete with 720p in image quality based on http://ipvm.com/report/hd_analog_shootout .
Btw, where could I see that CVI system? $500 is not too steep at all. It's actually my target budget (with an additional $300 margin-space).

Please for the love of us all listen to all the posts above. Lots of good ideas. I know you want to do wifi and despite some posts above saying not to you may be thinking you can anyway. But if you do you probably won't be happy, and if you are happy it's probably because you won't know any better--not know what your system could be.

Bite the bullet, run ethernet, and now you're cabled in for cameras now, five years from now, or ten years from now. Strong, reliable, wired connection using power over ethernet.

If you have to sacrifice the number of cameras do it, it's a no brainer. Honestly the field of view on a lot of the cheap cameras is really small anyway.

Hikvision 3mp cameras can be found on Aliexpress from reputable vendors for about what you seem to be willing to spend on the Foscam cameras (that you would probably end up hating).

Yes sirs, understood! I will run with ethernet cabled. It will take more effort and drilling as I will place most camera's outdoor, but it definitely seems more reliable/efficient.
I will also put Foscam lower on my list (even though that Foscam C1 really seemed nice with that 115 degree HD view angle for $70) and look at (outdoor) Hikvision or Dahua first. Any recommendations (preferably outdoor and domes)?

Thanks again all!

 

[fenderman]

Foscam is not 115 degrees...they are using a deceptive business practice (just like logitech did), by listing the diagonal viewing angle instead of their horizontal viewing angle to make it appear larger. Their specs as listed on the website is false. They state 115 horizontal. If you look at page 100 of the user manual you will see the true specs.
http://foscam.us/media/mconnect_uploadfiles/c/1/c1 user manual.pdf

 

[ruppmeister]

Here is a camera that you can buy for a little more than the Foscams (don't get those, yuck) that has the Wifi (not really recommended, but if you must for 1 cam or until you get your Cat cable runs done) and has an SD card slot to record directly in the camera.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-shipping-New-Arrival-3Mp-Audio-I-O-interface-Alarm-I-O-interface-Mini-Dome-Camera/638300_32229467849.html

These will ship for just over $100, which is $20 more than you were looking to spend, but you could if finances deemed necessary go without the DVR until you saved up enough.

Another great option is this one... frequently recommended around here.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Original-hikvision-3mp-array-30m-IR-Network-Dome-security-ip-camera-DS-2CD2332-I-support-POE/638300_32414934149.html

 

[weslyr]

Here is a camera that you can buy for a little more than the Foscams (don't get those, yuck) that has the Wifi (not really recommended, but if you must for 1 cam or until you get your Cat cable runs done) and has an SD card slot to record directly in the camera.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-shipping-New-Arrival-3Mp-Audio-I-O-interface-Alarm-I-O-interface-Mini-Dome-Camera/638300_32229467849.html

These will ship for just over $100, which is $20 more than you were looking to spend, but you could if finances deemed necessary go without the DVR until you saved up enough.

Another great option is this one... frequently recommended around here.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Original-hikvision-3mp-array-30m-IR-Network-Dome-security-ip-camera-DS-2CD2332-I-support-POE/638300_32414934149.html

Thank you for your recommendation ruppmeister!

You're making it tough for me as both outdoor models have strong points:

• DS-2CD2132F-IWS: is vandal-proof, slightly smaller and the SD-card functionality could be useful as a backup. The WiFi functionality I won't be using anymore as I promised you guys (POE it will be).
• DS-2CD2332-I: is $12 cheaper and I hear the domeless design will deliver better image quality (due to less reflection and more light sensitivity).

Decision: I think I will mainly go for the DS-2CD2332-I, because of the better image quality (i think) and because I won't be going the WiFi route (everybody advised me against it).
I like how it can save directly to a SMB share or NAS (that definitely compensates for the lack of SD card). A motorized PTZ would have been nice, but since I'm on a tight budget I will leave that requirement out.

I'm now brainstorming on three questions:
- I see I can choose different lens types. How do I know which one I need? I will be monitoring downwards within 5,5 meters.
- Should I buy it from Amazon or alieexpress (I believe Amazon will deliver more quickly. Two months seem like a looong time)?
- Am I making the right choice between DS-2CD2332-I or DS-2CD2132F-IWS ? $12 difference doesn't seem to much. When buying 8 of them it will save just $96...

 

[ruppmeister]

I think you are going to be happy by going with the 2332's. If you look around here a bit there are some comparison shots of what the different lenses look like. I can tell you from experience that the 2.8mm nets about 90* viewing angle. You can estimate this by standing about where you want to mount the camera and put your arms out to make an "L". Most of what is seen between your arms is what you will likely see in the camera (close approximation). The 4mm lenses are from what I gather, about 80% of the 2.8mm lens. I have both and each has its own merits. The 2.8 gets hard to make out a face with any distance from the camera (about 20ft) due to the wide angle, while I can see faces about 30ft out with the 4mm. Try one of each at first to see what you like.

Buying from Amazon is going to be much like buying from Ali since most sales from Amazon are going to be same kind of camera as Ali (hacked FW). There is a price difference between them, so if your budget says it needs to be cheaper, go Ali. There is a post around here about good and bad venders on both Ali and Amazon so read some of those to get an idea.

 

[xgsound]

I erroneously saw the 700TVL/ 12mm remarks at the link but now see the camera is 3MP which is beyond 1080p capable. The below points still mostly apply, but now it is just my experience.

Consider http://www.costco.com/Lorex-8-Channel-HD-1080p-Security-System-with-2TB-HDD-and-8-1080p-Cameras-.product.100218592.html#BVRRWidgetID My review is there under friden1217.

Here are the $500 Lorex systems pros: a. 1080p b. excellent night/ total darkness image c. complete sans monitor stand alone package d. costco return policy e. mail order replacement lenses available for zoom to 16mm (100ft plate or person ID resolution) f. Whole system sans monitor is $500
cons: a. Uses coax which may limit future expansion. b. limited camera/feature choices

Lorex does have a 12x zoom PTZ at Newegg for the above system, but it is also $544 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16881126290&cm_re=lorex_ptz-_-81-126-290-_-Product

Jim

 

[fenderman]

@xgsound To clarify, the hikvsion turrets he linked to are 3mp camera...the listed tvl ratings are there simply as a method to select lens size as aliexpress has no mechanism to add that as an option

 

[xgsound]

I'm new so I made that mistake. I'm also curious so I rechecked the specs before I saw your post.
Thanks for keeping the forum straight. Accurate, tested information is in my opinion the backbone of all forums.

Jim