Discussion in 'Chit-Chat' started by Prinler, Jul 11, 2018.
Lol.... is it necessary? No. Is it smart? That is the question...
What about in the future when 8k or whatever insane resolution comes out? I agree that cat 6 is not required for pretty much any current IP camera but future proofing things is not a bad idea. Pulling cables sucks and I'd rather not have to pull new ones later for some reason. Going with thicker 23awg Cat6 also reduceds you electricity costs since there is less power loss. 100w poe is also coming - that will not work very well on cat 5 implementations.
3 Reasons Why Power over Ethernet Demands CAT 6A Cable
Are You Ready to Support 100W PoE?
100MP cameras wont need cat6 LOL
Ok this made me laugh. Please take that sales ad with a grain of salt.
My 2MP Dahua cameras take 10.5W MAX with IR's on. That amount of power is so minute you would have to have cables hundreds of feet long for you to have issues.
So 12V + or - 25%!!!!! So on a 100Ft pull you will drop approx. 4.5% giving you a total voltage of 11.46V! You can pull upto 500+ feet of cat5e 24awg before you will be out of spec.
Cat5e is 24 awg and cat6 is only 23! If you do all the math, it only adds like 50 more feet!
Belden Cat6 $170+ per 1000'
Cat5e $100 per 1000'
Edit: The new Dahua -ZE Cameras can go 1000' on cat5e!
Who cares? I use cat6a because i can...
What about a 100MP with PTZ, IR, lens defogger, window wiper? I'm not sure how much better compression tech will get for video either. Phase One already has a 100MP digital camera available. An uncompressed tiff image from that is just over 800MB in size, at JPG 90% it still makes a file over 10MB. Figure 25% for fun though - the image will be pretty awful with that much compression, each frame would then still be over 2MB. So if you have more than a few cameras (we all do right? ) then you are going to get some wretched frame rates. Granted - that is all future talk. Even though a 100MP image sensor is available, I doubt we would even see one in a run of the mill security camera. 12MP is commonly out though.
I see it from the perspective of running a sign company. We were already choking a gigabit network with just 6 users pulling large files from the SAN so I recently added a 10GB Brocade switch and 10GB fiber to the desktops. It flies now. I see the same thing in a lot of other scenarios as well with the heavy streaming everyone is doing now and everyone wants higher and higher quality.
My new 4K Dahua NVR even has its limits (its a 16 channel) if I were to connect 16 4K cameras to it and tried to keep the quality on all up high I'd need to get an enterprise class switch with a beefy fabric to handle to bandwidth needed. Better cable tech is not just about power either....
A lot of factors come into play like connectors, heat aggregating in cable bundles, distance and speeds, etc. The other bummer with POE is that it is DC power instead of AC. DC is terrible for loss on distance. Hence the reason we used Tesla's AC power system instead of Edison's DC power system for long distance power transmission.
And no - I do not put a ton of weight into Beldens marketing. They do make top notch cable but its too pricey for me... I get 1000' rolls of Ice Primal Cat6 wholesale for just over $100. I've just learned over the years that science fiction very often becomes science fact and technology moves rapidly. Future proofing is not for everyone but its also not a waste of money either if it makes sense (not going to bother with something nice you will leave at a rented apartment for example).
I posted it mainly so I can learn and teach at the same time.
So apparently I do not understand how POE works. POE switch puts out 48V over the CatX cable and then gets rectified down to the proper voltage thus allowing for even LONGER distances.
FYI - I have used monoprice cat5e and cat6 cable. The price difference for the cat5e/6 cable I use is $20 for 1000'
Sometimes they have a 15% off, or $20 off $100 deal.
The newer versions of both the cat5e and cat6 which I typically pick up for use are 23AWG for cat6 and 24 AWG for cat5e. ( some of the older versions of cat6 were 24 AWG.. )
If I am only getting one box of 1000' typically I like the cat6 one as I will end up using it for other drops besides just IP PoE cameras.
My switch puts out 54 volt at the moment to my camera's
Here you can read a little about PoE:
Power over Ethernet (POE) Explained - Understanding and using POE
POE Explained - Understanding and using Power over Ethernet
I get the price thing, thanks for the details, I will check it out.
I think going cat6 is more of a Min/max thing. If you minimize this and maximize that its better. When people run high octane gas in their Honda, same thing. They think they are getting something better when they are not. If people could run fiber to each camera im sure people would do it.
I already beat ya to it, hafe way into the first link... Sadly i have to go back to work. Ill catch up with this later.
Your next problem is getting hard drives that can write that fast. Even SSDs are only 500 MB/s. Then your SSDs will be broken very quickly because of their limited write/reads.
SATA SSD's are old school. PCIe based NVMe SSD's far surpassed SATA speeds a few years ago. The Samsung 960 Pro in this workstation I'm using hits around 1588 MB/s write and 2200 MB/s read. The newer ones are pushing up around 2800/3500 and you can RAID them for stupidly fast speeds if you really want to. That being said - NVMe is not for everyone and in typical regular Windows and MAC desktop usage the difference between an NVMe and a SATA SSD are hardly noticeable. I work with editing massive graphics (bus ad wraps, etc) so it helps a good bit having a working file on incredibly fast storage. Newer SAN's and servers are also rapidly moving to RAID arrays of SSD's too which are hitting truly incredible speeds of 120 GB/s.
I went with Cat 6 for my DIY install, price difference between Cat5e was neglible and I actually kinda learned to like the annoying little plastic separator thing that gives Cat6 more rigidity and reduces signal crosstalk. I have a cable run that I had to pull up 3 stories (+2 fire blocks) from my porch to the attic, and the extra rigidity of cat 6 kinda helped a lot. Can't imagine doing the same with cat 5.
It just felt like paying a bit more for Cat 6 was cheap insurance, against me being a shitty cable puller/installer (pulling the cable too tight around corners, being too rough etc) and just future-proofing in general. Is there hype out there from cable manufactures about cat 6/cat 6A? Of course. (I mean some shady ones are hyping stuff like Cat 7 which isn't even EIA/TIA recognized AFAIK) But it's ALWAYS a good thing to go for thicker wires when you're talking about cables with have quite a few volts going thru them. Just my $0.02.
I just used Cat6 because it's 2018.
1000FT 23AWG Cat6 500MHz UTP Solid, Riser Rated (CMR), Bulk Ethernet Bare Copper Cable
I use cat6 only. easier to run.
plus shipping and tax.
I'm in favor of running the best wire that is practical simply because the labor cost (or hassle if you're running it for your own use) normally far outweighs the materials cost difference. If you do end up needing to re-run cable in the future because the stuff you initially ran becomes inadequate, you will really regret cheaping-out on the wire itself.
But I also thought I'd point out that the reason the AC system was more efficient in a power distribution system back in "the day" was simply that it allowed the use of simple transformers to step the voltage up to very high voltages so that you could transmit high power with less loss. This is because the current (for the same power) would be proportionally lower. That low current allows the use of smaller wire, and/or reduces power losses in the long runs.
You step the voltage up at the generating site, then step it down to lower voltages as you get nearer to the end use point. And this was made possible by transformers, and transformers require AC, of course.
However, when it comes to systems like our POE devices, DC power is fine because we use switching power converters at both ends, and they work with DC power at their inputs and outputs because they create the AC necessary to operate their tiny transformers (or inductors in many circuit topologies) by switching the DC using transistor circuits. A side note to this is that the physical size and weight of these transformers can be greatly reduced as well, because the switching frequencies used can be extremely high. Transformers operating at low frequencies must be proportionally larger.
Technically, DC travels with lower losses through the wiring if all of the other variables are held constant. But the technology to perform the switching necessary to do the voltage conversions at both ends of a power transmission line did not exist back in the days of Edison and Tesla. So the AC system was obviously the superior method, and still serves us well in many situations.
So while I agree that I prefer the heavier gauge of CAT 6 cabling, and prefer to have its extra data speed capabilities, the DC being sent through it for POE purposes is actually a better idea (than AC) for today's systems now that switching voltage converters are so cheap, small, light, and efficient.
Sorry to be pedantic about this, but it's kind of interesting from a nerdy perspective.
OK video writing is more intense but there's a lot of nonsense around SSD's.
My PC is 5 / 6years old now, I use it for up to 18 hrs per day, and I have an SSD Maindrive with most of the data on a Hard drive. After 5/6 years it's still going strong with SSD errors reported at nearly new levels. 16.4TB total written data in that time.
Whereas I wouldn't choose an SSD to write CCTV too, they're not as fragile as many people think. I also have a laptop I installed an SSD on at the same time. It only has an SSD and is still going strong. Additionally, the new 3d multi-layer SSD's are supposed to be tougher still.
As for CCTV it uses very high compression levels compared to a normal camera because most of the picture is static most of the time. That said, I personally would like to see the option of using lower compression and thus the ability to create larger files. However, atm, there's little danger of 500mbs streams. Even 4K CCTV is only using around 10mbs. 8K is 4 times the size in pixels, so you might see a 40mbs stream at the most, although I imagine the codecs will have been improved by then and also compression size isn't really a linear relationship to original file size ie it's unlikely a file 4 times as large will require 4 times the storage space. What determines quality with compression is the movement within the picture as most compression systems work on the basis of recording only the information that changes from frame to frame, with the whole of the other information simply referenced from a key frame. This is how they can keep files sizes small, and this is why the more movement you have in a picture the worse the quality gets (because more data has to be compressed into the same space), or the lower the compression (and higher the bit rate) you require to maintain quality.
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