looney2ns
IPCT Contributor
Cliff Notes query?
- Thread starter Phil.g00
- Start date
+1 above.
It is easy to think more MP is better.
With the exception of the newer 4K cameras on the 1/1.2" sensor that need less light so you can stay in color, many believe 4MP is the sweet spot for these types of cameras.
Heck my 2MP (even though I have 4K and 4MP cams as well) have been the cameras that that got my neighbors their stuff back!
It is all about focal length over MP and I will take my OPTICALLY zoomed 2MP camera over a DIGITAL zoomed 8MP all night long.
It is easy to think more MP is better.
With the exception of the newer 4K cameras on the 1/1.2" sensor that need less light so you can stay in color, many believe 4MP is the sweet spot for these types of cameras.
Heck my 2MP (even though I have 4K and 4MP cams as well) have been the cameras that that got my neighbors their stuff back!
It is all about focal length over MP and I will take my OPTICALLY zoomed 2MP camera over a DIGITAL zoomed 8MP all night long.
I have a DSLR background, so I know that balancing pixel size, sensor size, and lens aperture must be done.
If one aspect is lacking, the whole suffers.
F1.0 + 1/1.2 sensors+ 4K seems to be the best tech at the moment. I am not trying to save money; I really want the best I can afford.
The fact of the matter is that the 1/1.2" sensor do not come in varifocal yet, so after 15-20 feet to IDENTIFY, the 5442 varifocal that can see infrared is a better choice.
And the 4K on the 1/1/2" sensor cannot see infrared, so if you do not have enough light or are unwilling to use the built-in white light, then you are better off with the 5442 series that can see infrared.
In other words, unless your IDENTIFY distances are within the 15 feet of the camera and you have enough light at night or are willing to use the built in white LEDs, then you are better off with a camera that can see infrared.
You might have to forget what you know about DSLR and high end photography cameras LOL as you play with these. Almost everyone that has come here with experience in DSLR cameras struggle with these cameras. Every one of these cameras have more processing of the images than a DSLR camera. Some are worse than others. Then there is the compression of the video, etc. Turn off NR on one of these cameras and you will see how much processing is used.
You will find a BIG difference between photography equipment and these cameras. Things like trying to match focal lengths are tough because it may be crystal clear on high end DSLR and not be clear with these types of cameras. Digital zoom works better on DSLR cameras than these. The sensors and optics just are not at the same level. These cameras are designed for 24/7 use with abuse from the elements. DSLR cameras are designed for a different working environment and purpose. Hang a DSLR camera outside and see how long it lasts LOL! But the quality would be better for the time it was working (but also a lot more storage needed too).
Remember these are surveillance cameras, not DSLR cameras, so you have to check your expectations. For example, you can see individual hairs and skin pores with DSLR photography equipment and you won't with these kinds of cameras. These are for a different use and different expectations.
And the 4K on the 1/1/2" sensor cannot see infrared, so if you do not have enough light or are unwilling to use the built-in white light, then you are better off with the 5442 series that can see infrared.
In other words, unless your IDENTIFY distances are within the 15 feet of the camera and you have enough light at night or are willing to use the built in white LEDs, then you are better off with a camera that can see infrared.
You might have to forget what you know about DSLR and high end photography cameras LOL as you play with these. Almost everyone that has come here with experience in DSLR cameras struggle with these cameras. Every one of these cameras have more processing of the images than a DSLR camera. Some are worse than others. Then there is the compression of the video, etc. Turn off NR on one of these cameras and you will see how much processing is used.
You will find a BIG difference between photography equipment and these cameras. Things like trying to match focal lengths are tough because it may be crystal clear on high end DSLR and not be clear with these types of cameras. Digital zoom works better on DSLR cameras than these. The sensors and optics just are not at the same level. These cameras are designed for 24/7 use with abuse from the elements. DSLR cameras are designed for a different working environment and purpose. Hang a DSLR camera outside and see how long it lasts LOL! But the quality would be better for the time it was working (but also a lot more storage needed too).
Remember these are surveillance cameras, not DSLR cameras, so you have to check your expectations. For example, you can see individual hairs and skin pores with DSLR photography equipment and you won't with these kinds of cameras. These are for a different use and different expectations.
- Sensor Size - a full frame DSLR sensor size is 864mm^2; whereas a 1/2.8" sensor popular on many cameras would be 20mm^2, so the "real" camera can collect over 40 times more light than a surveillance camera. And this doesn't even account for less light available for an 8MP versus 2MP for the same size sensor.
- Shutter Speed (Exposure) - Taking a picture with a "real" camera, you can slow the shutter down to 1/2s or longer for a nice clean picture of a person not moving. Perps rarely stand still and we need a shutter of at least 1/60s to minimize the blur.
- Aperture - With a "real" camera you focus on a specific part of the field of view, while a surveillance needs to focus on things in the foreground and background, which means the aperture is smaller, further compounding the light issue.
- Compression - A single 8MP image from a "real" camera could be upwards of 5MB of storage. In surveillance cameras, if you record at 15FPS, every second of video could be 75MB or more, which could equate to 6.5TB per day per camera. Obviously most are not going to have that kind of storage, so lossy compression algorithms are used to reduce storage and network bandwidth requirement, and that can add noise.
- Environment - a "real" camera is used mainly under ideal conditions, whereas a surveillance camera is going 24/7 in every type of element, so the design and size impacts its capabilities.
If you haven't seen this thread, it lists the commonly recommended cameras based on distance to IDENTIFY. These represent the best overall cameras in terms of price, performance day and night, and reliability.
ipcamtalk.com
The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection
At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...
I have spent a good few hours reading posts on the forum and looking at video capture quality.
I have also taken to heart the wisdom of having spotting cameras coupled with PTZs.
Considering multiple 49225s plus maybe a 45x 2mp big boy.
Cameras that appeal to me as spotters are:
IPC-Color4K-T180 2×4MP 4K Full-Color Warm lights Dual 1/1.8" CMOS Dual-Lens Splicing Network Camera
I have just purchased this from Andy, together with an EPTZ-capable NVR.
Other cameras I am considering are:
TPC-BF1241-S2 ( A thermal camera with a 10mm lens 4MP 1/2.8 sensor, but an f1.0 optical lens, it reports to have 417m thermal human detection, though).
Another camera that has impressed me with its performance is the dual lens infrared + normal lens camera.
IPC-HDW5449H-ASE-D2
6mm with 1/1.8" + 1/1.8" CMOS could also have its place, but I can't find much about this camera.
I have read the detailed review of the 3.6mm version with the 1/2.7 older sensor. Thanks, @Wildcat_1. I like this cam because I can see how hard it is to identify using IR, but once it flips to colour, even for a moment to identify, then the rest of the scene can be followed in IR.
I know a thermal camera will take two NVR channels, but it evens out when combined with the other cameras that use two sensors on a single channel.
The long-range IR-capable varifocals are also on the table, but I haven't thoroughly researched them yet either.
I have a rural property with a maximum of 400m (in darkness) from the dwelling to cover (and about 2km of poorly fenced vulnerable borders).
Livestock, solar panels and firearms are the targets. The closest neighbours are 2km away. The idea is to sense humans just outside the perimeter at a long-range, switch remote lights (either white or IR, undecided), and use long-range PTZ to identify trespassers.
I am considering covert cameras and external IR floodlights because intruders will wear masks if the cameras are obvious. The cameras and lights themselves will be vulnerable if they are far from the dwelling. I will be using underground optic fibre due to lightning.
So looking for suggestions on single or double-port media converters with POE+.
Covert LPR is an option as there is a rural road entry on one border, as the place will be cased out beforehand.
I will be piecing this system together over the next 18 months.
Anybody is welcome to chip in with any suggestions.
I have also taken to heart the wisdom of having spotting cameras coupled with PTZs.
Considering multiple 49225s plus maybe a 45x 2mp big boy.
Cameras that appeal to me as spotters are:
IPC-Color4K-T180 2×4MP 4K Full-Color Warm lights Dual 1/1.8" CMOS Dual-Lens Splicing Network Camera
I have just purchased this from Andy, together with an EPTZ-capable NVR.
Other cameras I am considering are:
TPC-BF1241-S2 ( A thermal camera with a 10mm lens 4MP 1/2.8 sensor, but an f1.0 optical lens, it reports to have 417m thermal human detection, though).
Another camera that has impressed me with its performance is the dual lens infrared + normal lens camera.
IPC-HDW5449H-ASE-D2
6mm with 1/1.8" + 1/1.8" CMOS could also have its place, but I can't find much about this camera.
I have read the detailed review of the 3.6mm version with the 1/2.7 older sensor. Thanks, @Wildcat_1. I like this cam because I can see how hard it is to identify using IR, but once it flips to colour, even for a moment to identify, then the rest of the scene can be followed in IR.
I know a thermal camera will take two NVR channels, but it evens out when combined with the other cameras that use two sensors on a single channel.
The long-range IR-capable varifocals are also on the table, but I haven't thoroughly researched them yet either.
I have a rural property with a maximum of 400m (in darkness) from the dwelling to cover (and about 2km of poorly fenced vulnerable borders).
Livestock, solar panels and firearms are the targets. The closest neighbours are 2km away. The idea is to sense humans just outside the perimeter at a long-range, switch remote lights (either white or IR, undecided), and use long-range PTZ to identify trespassers.
I am considering covert cameras and external IR floodlights because intruders will wear masks if the cameras are obvious. The cameras and lights themselves will be vulnerable if they are far from the dwelling. I will be using underground optic fibre due to lightning.
So looking for suggestions on single or double-port media converters with POE+.
Covert LPR is an option as there is a rural road entry on one border, as the place will be cased out beforehand.
I will be piecing this system together over the next 18 months.
Anybody is welcome to chip in with any suggestions.
Those are good choices, but do not discount a good varifocal like the 5442 series into the mix as well.
Here is a post from just last night where someone went with full zoom on the driveway after playing with the different field of views that the varifocal offers.
Keep in mind the 49225 is no longer available with autotracking and the newer chipset cannot be flashed with the older autotracking firmware.
Here is a post from just last night where someone went with full zoom on the driveway after playing with the different field of views that the varifocal offers.
Keep in mind the 49225 is no longer available with autotracking and the newer chipset cannot be flashed with the older autotracking firmware.
I am in touch with Andy about a PTZ with the auto-tracking FW. Auto-tracking is a must-have.
The 5442 range also impresses me, but my situation is such that I need long focal lengths.
The direction of approach of intruders could be from any direction, so there isn't a specific entrance access that can be covered at close quarters.
If they are close enough to identify at short distances, it is too close, if I am home.
I will still use them though.
An interrupted burglary is a murder in South Africa.
I'd instead let the dogs out when the intruders are 100m away. They can press charges, but they won't be back.
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But with the exception of the PTZ, the remaining cameras you listed are all fixed lens which means shorter distances to IDENTIFY. As you said "If they are close enough to identify at short distances, it is too close, if I am home" so you will want a few fixed cameras with longer focal lengths to IDENTIFY at distance.
I am simply pointing out that if you rely solely on spotter cams and PTZs, you could miss something.
Especially if it is a multi-angle attack or more than one person and they keep tripping the spotter cams and moving the PTZ away and you miss the clean capture.
Spotter cams in conjunction with a PTZ are great, but they do have limitations as well.
A few well placed 5442 varifocals can certainly help.
So are you in Ireland or South Africa?
I am simply pointing out that if you rely solely on spotter cams and PTZs, you could miss something.
Especially if it is a multi-angle attack or more than one person and they keep tripping the spotter cams and moving the PTZ away and you miss the clean capture.
Spotter cams in conjunction with a PTZ are great, but they do have limitations as well.
A few well placed 5442 varifocals can certainly help.
So are you in Ireland or South Africa?
Yes, you are correct. This will be my approach to match the camera to a specific purpose.
I will have a combination of wide-coverage spotters and long-range spotters like that thermal cam. It won't identify at 200m out, but it can spot for a PTZ.
I have been working in Ireland for the past 20 years, emigrating from South Africa. I intend to retire back to SA in about 18 months.
I previously lived on the same property I am retiring to, so I know its vulnerabilities. I am also aware of the levels of crime there.
I will have a combination of wide-coverage spotters and long-range spotters like that thermal cam. It won't identify at 200m out, but it can spot for a PTZ.
I have been working in Ireland for the past 20 years, emigrating from South Africa. I intend to retire back to SA in about 18 months.
I previously lived on the same property I am retiring to, so I know its vulnerabilities. I am also aware of the levels of crime there.
OK, just keep in mind 10mm isn't a lot of focal length and a thermal cam won't provide IDENTIFY at any distance, so it is truly a spotter cam.
And since crime is what it is there, they probably know how to foil and evade PTZs.
With an NVR, once a spotter cam triggers the PTZ, every time the spotter cam is triggered it will reset the spotter cam to the PTZ preset, so a multi person attack and it can foil your attempt to get clean captures.
Or once they stop for more than 5-10 seconds, the PTZ reverts back.
I am simply pointing out that you may want to consider a few 32mm or 64mm focal length cameras to supplement the likely areas they may approach from in case the PTZs miss it.
And since crime is what it is there, they probably know how to foil and evade PTZs.
With an NVR, once a spotter cam triggers the PTZ, every time the spotter cam is triggered it will reset the spotter cam to the PTZ preset, so a multi person attack and it can foil your attempt to get clean captures.
Or once they stop for more than 5-10 seconds, the PTZ reverts back.
I am simply pointing out that you may want to consider a few 32mm or 64mm focal length cameras to supplement the likely areas they may approach from in case the PTZs miss it.
Yep, I am going to be considering those cameras as well.
And yes, the thermal cam's optical lens is a bonus; I actually want the reach of the thermal lens.
Regarding evading PTZs, I think hoodies and masks will be used rather than understanding how these cameras can be foiled.
I think, in some instances, these guys are aware of how poor many security cameras are, and it just doesn't bother them.
The distances and clarity of some of these PTZs impress me. They won't be masked up while they are still aways off.
I have an excellent line of sight as the dwelling is on a small hill with pine trees close to the house but clear of trees for hundreds of metres all around.
In that regard, it is unusual as it is actually built on a battlefield.
It is the Boer sniper site overlooking the Tugela River ford that the British army tried (and failed) to cross in the battle of Colenso.
I want to see potential intruders before they know I am looking for them.
And yes, the thermal cam's optical lens is a bonus; I actually want the reach of the thermal lens.
Regarding evading PTZs, I think hoodies and masks will be used rather than understanding how these cameras can be foiled.
I think, in some instances, these guys are aware of how poor many security cameras are, and it just doesn't bother them.
The distances and clarity of some of these PTZs impress me. They won't be masked up while they are still aways off.
I have an excellent line of sight as the dwelling is on a small hill with pine trees close to the house but clear of trees for hundreds of metres all around.
In that regard, it is unusual as it is actually built on a battlefield.
It is the Boer sniper site overlooking the Tugela River ford that the British army tried (and failed) to cross in the battle of Colenso.
I want to see potential intruders before they know I am looking for them.
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Just in case I ever come across any new old stock. Do you know the full model name of the particular 49225 hardware that can be flashed with the auto-tracking FW?
looney2ns
IPCT Contributor
Review - Dahua SD49225XA-HNR 2MP 25x Starlight + IR PTZ AI Camera with Deep IVS & SMD Plus
Ok, so whats better than 1 review…….2 reviews……in tandem :) Read on to find out more. All, thanks to Andy (@empiretecandy ) we have a new 2MP AI camera for testing. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This is a new PTZ with 4.8mm to 120mm focal...
I still see that model for sale. Did the later hardware attract a different suffix? So I could be sure.Review - Dahua SD49225XA-HNR 2MP 25x Starlight + IR PTZ AI Camera with Deep IVS & SMD Plus
Ok, so whats better than 1 review…….2 reviews……in tandem :) Read on to find out more. All, thanks to Andy (@empiretecandy ) we have a new 2MP AI camera for testing. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This is a new PTZ with 4.8mm to 120mm focal...
Yes, they kept the same model number, but Dahua removed autotracking from it years ago, even on the chipset that could accept an autotrack firmware. Now if it has an S2 or higher it will not accept autotracking software.
You will not find a new one by any vendor that has ability to flash autotracking. It was late 2020 that Dahua removed it from the camera, so any of the S1 chipsets have been long sold off.
You would have to find a used one or get a different PTZ that has autotracking.
I'm a little late to the party but I have been away for a while. I started with a NVR5216-16P-4ks2E but then changed to a 32 channel non-POE; luckily my brother-in-law needed to 16 channel POE for his dental office.
The reasons I now prefer the non-POE version:
1. I have an old house and there is no easy way to cleanly run new Cat-5 for adding more cameras. In one corner of my property, I am using a 1-4 POE Extender to run 3 IPCs to one POE+ port on the NVR. The issue with this setup is that there is no easy way to log into the camera's UI, I would have to unplug the IPC from the NVR and connect to my laptop. I could plug extra IPCs through the WAN but a separate POE would be needed.
2. POEs do not last forever, especially if you have 16 IPCs plugged into the same one; if the POE dies, you have to replace the entire NVR. I now have 3 POEs at different areas of the house for a much cleaner install and one failure will not take down the entire system.
3. A 32 channel non-POE was relatively cheap, now I have plenty of channels to grow. I have a bunch of Wyze cams for inside the house and plan on adding them to the NVR (as soon as I can fine the firmware).
Just my 2 cents.
The reasons I now prefer the non-POE version:
1. I have an old house and there is no easy way to cleanly run new Cat-5 for adding more cameras. In one corner of my property, I am using a 1-4 POE Extender to run 3 IPCs to one POE+ port on the NVR. The issue with this setup is that there is no easy way to log into the camera's UI, I would have to unplug the IPC from the NVR and connect to my laptop. I could plug extra IPCs through the WAN but a separate POE would be needed.
2. POEs do not last forever, especially if you have 16 IPCs plugged into the same one; if the POE dies, you have to replace the entire NVR. I now have 3 POEs at different areas of the house for a much cleaner install and one failure will not take down the entire system.
3. A 32 channel non-POE was relatively cheap, now I have plenty of channels to grow. I have a bunch of Wyze cams for inside the house and plan on adding them to the NVR (as soon as I can fine the firmware).
Just my 2 cents.
