ColorVU versus the Dark Fighter options?

[sidpost]

I'm looking at YouTube sources primarily but, the sources I have watched are confusing as much as anything.

How do the different Dark Fighter releases compare to each other? How does ColorVU fit into the nighttime use role? How do the price points change when going from ColorVU to the Dark Fighters?

For example, the 8MP ColorVU bullet runs less than $250USD which seems like a good price. What would a similar Dark Fighter model give me in terms of capability and at what real-world street price in the USA?

Assuming you have ~$500USD to spend on a camera to mount on a farmhouse or barn to watch for mailbox thieves and livestock predators along with more common theft and vandalism surveillance, what Hikvision camera models are the better options?

The FAQs I have read suggest bullets aren't my best option and that domes have IR reflections though, I'm not really concerned about IR detection from the likely threats I face. I require outdoor cameras and could use a dome if I need to. I am assuming a Pan and Tilt is cost-prohibitive.

TIA,
Sid

 

[sebastiantombs]

ColorVue and DarkFighter are nothing more than marketing terms. Don't rely on YouTube (SrewTube) for solid, real world, information on cameras. There is an entire subheading on this forum just for Hikvision cameras. Look in there for reviews, and here on IPCT those reviews show day and night video in real installations and in real, or simulated real, conditions.

Without knowing the distances involved to the areas that you need to cover, mailbox, livestock and so on. It's hard to make any kind of recommendation. Turrets are generally better than domes or bullets, less problems with bugs being attracted to the infrared light used to illuminate the scene at night. Any camera can be "tuned" to produce a nice color still shot at night, but the real test is color with motion at night. Every camera, no matter what the marketing term may be, needs light to produce an image. That can be white light or infrared light. The little white LEDs that are on some "full color" cameras are similar to the flash on you cell phone. OK close in but past 20 or 30 feet and they're useless.

Do not fall into the megapixel trap, more is not always better. Instead chase the sensor size, that is the true key to good video both day and night, especially at night,

Quick guide -

The smaller the lux number the better the low light performance. 0.002 is better than 0.02
The smaller the "F" of the lens the better the low light performance. F1.4 is better than F1.8
The larger the sensor the better the low light performance. 1/1.8" is better (bigger) than 1/2.7"
The higher the megapixels for the same size sensor the worse the low light performance. A 4MP camera with a 1/1.8" sensor will perform better than a 8MP camera with that same 1/1.8" sensor.

Sensor to resolution for good performance at night -
720P - 1/3" = .333"
2MP - 1/2.8" = .357" (think a .38 caliber bullet)
4MP - 1/1.8" = .555" (bigger than a .50 caliber bullet or ball)
8MP - 1/1.2" = .833" (bigger than a 20mm chain gun round)

Don't believe all the marketing hype no matter who makes the camera. Don't believe those nice night time captures they all use. Look for videos, with motion, to determine low light performance. Any camera can be made to "see" color at night if the exposure time is long enough, as in half a second or longer. Rule of thumb, the shutter speed needs to be at 1/60 or higher to get night video without blurring.

Read the reviews here, most include both still shots and video.

 

[wittaj]

I have said this before, but worth repeating. Do not be sold by some trademarked night color vision (Full Color, ColorVu, Starlight, etc.) that is a marketing ploy in a lot of ways lol. It is simply what a manufacturer wants to claim for low-light performance, but there are so many games that can be played even with the how they report the Lux numbers. They will claim a low lux of 0.0005 for example, but then that is with a wide open iris and a shutter at 1/3 second and an f1.0 - as soon as you have motion in it, it will be crap. You need a shutter of at minimum 1/60 second to reduce a lot of blur from someone walking.

All cameras need light regardless of what any marketing claims. I can make a crap camera look like noon at midnight, but then motion is a blur. But with any light at all, this camera does really well.

Sensor size, F number, MP, quality of the lens and sensor and software running the cameras are the real determining factors. And then obviously dial each cameras specific software settings to optimize the image and video. A brightness of 50 for example will look different between two different brands, or even the same brand but different cameras.

It is interesting how many of us experience better camera images with the camera LED off, regardless of whether it is a Hik or Dahua! I personally don't think they cast a far enough light to be effective. They are blinding looking at the camera, but do not project enough light out far enough to be effective. I have 3 different cameras with the LED and I do not run any of them on!

Unless you know you have enough ambient light or can live with the camera's white LED on, go with a camera that can see infrared. The full color type cameras cannot see infrared, so you couldn't add external IR later.

But in a completely black situation without any ambient light and without the white LED on, it looks like crap and you cannot add external IR as it won't see it.

Check out this video at midnight. You see this and it looks like daytime and be like WOW I want that camera. But any motion in the frame and it is crap and will be a ghost blur. You notice they do not show anything with motion. I can make all my cameras look like this at midnight with no other light, but we want good motion video, not still images video. This is a very nice camera with enough light at night - and as and with some light, this camera rocks. But all cameras, regardless of what they are called, need light - either white light or infrared. Simple physics.



While this camera is not what we would call a consumer grade camera and this is a really good camera, it is these games played to make it look good at night - but then a person walking by is a blur and people simply say well the camera isn't good at night. If you have the ability to change the settings, you can make it work. Just remember that every increase in shutter speed needs more light. So I can set mine to 1/250 second and eliminate blur at night, but then all that is visible is a 5 foot diameter around the camera IF I have enough light.

If your camera doesn't have enough light, as you are finding out, a 24/7 full color camera will not be of much good and now you have a camera with no IR and even if you added external IR, the camera will not see it since it does not have an IR filter.

We are fortunate so many people here post videos and images where we can see their field of view and available light and we can try to imagine how that stacks up to our field of view and available light and that to me is a much better spec to go by than what is printed on the side of the box.

I have a Full Color type camera and the LED light on it is a gimmick. It helps for a small diameter circle, but it is no different than going outside at pitch black and turning on your cell phone light - it is bright looking directly at the LED light, but it doesn't spread out and reach very far. Fortunately I have enough ambient light that I do not need the little piddly LED light on and it actually looks worse with it on, but it performs better than my other cameras when tested at the same location. But without some light, a camera with IR capability is the safer bet.

 

[sidpost]

I have some experience with DSLR cameras and related lenses so, while no means an expert I have some real-world experience with different objective sizes, F-stops, sensor sizes (I don't own a full-frame DSLR but, one step down along with the more common point'n'shoot options) and related photography options.

Less than 30Hz on a thermal scope renders it pretty useless IMHO hunting feral hogs. 19mm and 35mm objective with the respective FOVs and magnification are at best a mixed bag at identification with lower resolution sensors and is marginal on the better sensor though target identification improves since you have more than a heavily pixelated outline to work with.

My primary need is daytime right now with people following USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc. around and random porch pirates and mailbox thieves. So far, I haven't had any direct threats to my house or vehicle but, with the amount of Marijuana and Meth being used around me, I'm sure it is only a matter of time. My nighttime right now however is focused on livestock predators. During the daytime, I am generally outside working on my property and have a rifle handy to shoot dogs. I have been attacked three times by dogs with a dog collar so, video footage for the County Sherrif and medical bills in civil court would be beneficial.

In summary, I think I need more than one type of camera. A higher megapixel for longer range daytime uses and a bigger sensor somewhat independent of pixel count with an appropriate lense and refresh rate.

The YouTube comments are spot on and is the reason I am here. They generally sound like a sponsored TIK TOK advertisement from someone hawking clothes, cosmetics, etc. to their followers.

Accusense, ColorVU, Dark Fighter, etc. may be marketing hooks but if they represent a specific technology advancement or feature they could be beneficial terms to look for while shopping to ensure a base feature set and performance level.

 

[wittaj]

The words Accusense, ColorVu, Dark Fighter, Starlight, etc. are indeed simply marketing hooks and do not represent a specific technology advancement or feature....it is simple a marketing term used to supposedly sell the consumer on the ability to have good night vision. The actual sensors and capabilities of the camera is more important.

This is an example from Reolink's marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture. This is why you cannot buy a system based on marketing terms like Starlight.... Could this provide anything useful for the police? Would this protect your home? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two columns:



Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you


So based on your most recent post, I think you understand a few things!

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. DO NOT CHASE MP!!!

It is why we recommend to purchase one good varifocal and test it at all the proposed locations day and night to figure out the correct focal lengths and cams.

A few other tips....It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k (8MP) cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). Starlight, ColorVu, Full Color, etc. are simply marketing terms with no increased technological advances.

To identify someone with the wide-angle 2.8mm lens that most people opt for, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.



My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm fixed lens 4k cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away. Meanwhile my 2MP varifocal optically zoomed 60 feet away to the public sidewalk provided the money shot to the police to get my neighbors all their stuff back. Nobody else had video that could provide anything useful, other than what time this motion blur ghost was at their car.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well. These cameras meet all your requirements.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
• 49225 PTZ - great auto-track PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom. The correct focal length for the distance you want to cover is more important than MP.

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.

Since you mentioned DSLR cameras, these are no where near as capable as those cameras. These are meant for surveillance - as an example, you cannot see individuals hairs on someone in most instances with these cameras.

 

[wittaj]

If you want to catch drive by porch pirates, then you need a camera with its settings dialed in to capture plates. This will be a camera with a large optical zoom like the 2MP 5241-Z12E.

Regarding a camera for plates (LPR) - keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

 

[wittaj]

With a budget of $500, you won't get many cameras, especially capable cameras at night.

Domes should be avoided outdoors - even in the daytime the sun can reflect and blind the cam more so than a turret or bullet can. And dust and rain create more problems as well.

While many here will say, and rightfully so, that a PTZ is always looking the wrong way, this PTZ is the best sub $400 PTZ out there with autotracking capabilities. This is a Dahua OEM sold by a member here. He is the only one that still has it available in autotracking, so if you go that route, go with this link:

Amazon.com

It will provide you with the optical zoom needed and in conjunction with some fixed cams to use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the motion. Hopefully you have a pinch point that you could aim and zoom the PTZ to for when people approach your property.

 

[sidpost]

With a budget of $500, you won't get many cameras, especially capable cameras at night.

To clarify, that's per camera, not all cameras. $500 won't go very far considering the areas I need to cover.

Realistically, based on what I have read here, I'm thinking I need in the range of 5 or 6 cameras total but, not all of them need to be uber premium feature-packed (general surveillance).

 

[sebastiantombs]

Maybe a map or sketch of what you are trying to cover will help with solid recommendations.

The problems with YouTube reviews are that they tend to stress the "best" and ignore everything else. Real world versus a test bed setup is significantly different. Unless it's a video, day or night, with real motion not the reviewer strolling slowly with an eye chart, it's not real world.

You may want to look into a true IR camera if you're that concerned with feral predators. They aren't inexpensive but can be very effective in that regard. Remember, too, you're trying to "see" what's out there, not site a rifle on it. 30Fps isn't needed for that.

Additionally, a surveillance camera is not a DSLR. Yes, they share the same sensor type, not specific models, but there the resemblance ends. The principle of lenses do apply though as well as shutter speed. The problem with shutter speed is that it is not a mechanical shutter in a surveillance camera.

 

[sidpost]

Maybe a map or sketch of what you are trying to cover will help with solid recommendations.

• I am thinking about a Pan-Tilt-Zoom camera on the Horse barn to cover the driveway and public road for general surveillance and backup to cameras at the house.
• The front pasture has a power pole in it that I am planning to aim at my gate/mailbox on the road however, reading about DORI and LPR features I think it may be a waste for more than general surveillance
• The house needs a camera pointed toward the equipment shed, another pointed towards the pond to cover the garage and area between the driveway split, and another pointed towards the horse barn
• Then a general surveillance camera is needed behind the house to cover the back pasture.

At the moment, my thoughts are a bit all over the place as I consider everything posted in this thread which has been super helpful.

I'm open to other thoughts and recommendations but, at the moment I'm thinking I want to start with:

• General surveillance camera on the Horse barn pointing towards the front pasture including the driveway and mailbox area
• General surveillance camera on the Horse barn or House pointing towards the back pasture
• Facial recognition cameras to cover:
  • the front of the house near the porch and front door
  • the front of the house near the garage doors
  • side/rear of the house to cover the back porch and back door to the garage

 

[sidpost]

I spent a few minutes on Aliexpress but, that wasn't super helpful. Rebranded and Asian cameras loaded with English firmware make me hesitant to go that route or try eBay. Amazon was a waste of time.

I really think I need better night capabilities for my general surveillance cameras so, I wonder about IR-specific cameras but I also want them to work well during the day.

For around the house, a big sensor with a low-to-mid range pixel count with an appropriate lens and frame rate matters most.

Performance matters most but, I also want a value-oriented solution. What is unclear to me is value and diminishing returns.

 

[Spirch]

play with this tool IPVM Camera Calculator

 

[wittaj]

That is why I mentioned to purchase from a member here @EMPIRETECANDY that has a store front on Amazon and AliExpress. His equipment is Dahua and Hikvision OEM, and in many cases better because he gets international versions - fully upgradable and members here provide input to make the firmware better.


Amazon.com


Aliexpress Shop

Or DM him directly for direct quotes.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Don't try to cover too much area with one camera. That always leads to failure. I have a relatively small house on an acre. There are three cameras on the front and rear of the house for "general" coverage. One on each end pointing toward the opposite end. One in the middle pointing straight out to cover the middle and provide full overlap. Every camera is watched by another with this kind of arrangement. The ends of the house have two cameras each, arranged the same way, pointing back toward each other. That's a total of ten cameras just for around the house.

There are an additional two in the front yard, about 100 feet from the house, watching our "lower" front yard, the mailbox and the street. There are an additional three more in the back yard watching where we park our cars, the equipment shed and a blind spot created by another shed that houses the generator. Those three cameras are linked back to the main system using a Ubiquity Nano Loco M5 dedicated RF link rather than being cabled. I will be adding, over time, more cameras inside both of the sheds as well and yet another for the blind spot behind the equipment shed. That will total out to 24 cameras when the inside cameras, common area and two in the basement, and the two doorbell cameras are included.

Even with all of those cameras, and many of them are varifocal, 3-12 or 13.5mm, it's very hard to get really good coverage further out from the house. I'm also using a lot of external IR illuminators, especially on the sides and in the back, to provide effective night coverage for the full back yard. That's providing enough light to see things in a 200x250 foot area.

I'd second the idea of getting a good varifocal, like the 5442T-ZE or 5442T-Z4E, and setting it up in a test rig to test out where you can effectively place cameras to get the coverage you're looking for and where you'll need additional IR lighting for good night use as well. You can use the GUI for the camera to see what's going on and make adjustments to the camera. There's also a basic, free, VMS program for the cameras that might prove useful to be able to watch for a day or two, continuously, in each spot to make sure of the locations to eliminate those "oh crap" moments.

 

[looney2ns]

Study this: Cliff Notes.
The cameras listed in it are outdated, but all the other info is very relevant.

 

[Spirch]

you can take a look at the picture that i uploaded here Hikvision ColorVu + 4K (DS-2CD2087G2-L)

you can compare a color vu 4k vs a "darkfighter" 4mp ptz

 

[triumph202]

ColorVu cameras are great if you've got reasonable street lighting covering the area you want to watch over. Or, you're willing to install extra visible light sources (even motion sensor lights etc.) They can give you decent results in those conditions. The added bonus is the visible light itself can act as a deterrent to intruders. If you've got neighbours close by they may not appreciate the visible lighting 24/7.

The traditional cameras use built in IR light sources at night. Once again, you may need to add extra IR light sources to illuminate the areas if they're not close to the camera. The light isn't visible to the human eye, so won't deter people intent on sneaking around in the dark. The picture is also black and white so identifying intruders may not be too easy (colour of skin, clothing etc.)

 

[Ookie]

I have said this before, but worth repeating. Do not be sold by some trademarked night color vision (Full Color, ColorVu, Starlight, etc.) that is a marketing ploy in a lot of ways lol. It is simply what a manufacturer wants to claim for low-light performance, but there are so many games that can be played even with the how they report the Lux numbers. They will claim a low lux of 0.0005 for example, but then that is with a wide open iris and a shutter at 1/3 second and an f1.0 - as soon as you have motion in it, it will be crap. You need a shutter of at minimum 1/60 second to reduce a lot of blur from someone walking.

All cameras need light regardless of what any marketing claims. I can make a crap camera look like noon at midnight, but then motion is a blur. But with any light at all, this camera does really well.

THIS. Period.

I've been saying it until I'm blue in the face, and people still don't seem to get it.

I have have substantial experience in my work as a police detective. Including testifying in court. If any modern IP cam is having trouble with the lighting conditions, a good security plan involves fixing the lighting situation first. If you get clear video of a crime (crystal clear faces and license plates), you are still already screwed. The clowns that stole your stuff likely sold it within the hour. Even if arrested and convicted, you are looking at a time frame of one year minimum to get restitution. In certain states, you may have to be at every one of the defendant's court appearances. Time off of work can eclipse the value of what was stolen.

Criminals like to work in the dark. Do yourself a favor and get some decent flood lighting. Motion detection in residential areas to avoid disturbing the neighbors. Sunset to sunrise for commercial applications. Unless you are looking to capture wildlife (which you are) or do LPR, the concept of additional stand-alone IR is incredibly foolish. Zero deterrent value.

 

[triumph202]

Do yourself a favor and get some decent flood lighting. Motion detection in residential areas to avoid disturbing the neighbors. Sunset to sunrise for commercial applications.

That's what I've done in my front yard- automatic sunset to sunrise flood lighting as well as motion sensor lights (because the street lighting is abysmal where I live.) The 8MP Colorvu works well in that situation without using it's built in lighting. The 8MP ColorVu also out performs my older "Powered by Darkfighter" 3MP DS-2CD2335FWD-I / DS-2CD2H35FWD-IZS while using a faster exposure time.

There was a person going through cars on the street - seeing which were unlocked and stealing items of value. He went to step into my driveway and then turned around and keep going when the sensor lights came on. I don't know if he spotted the cameras or not.

 

[Athecal]

2MP - 1/2.8" = .357" (think a .38 caliber bullet)

Why wouldn't you think of a .357 bullet instead of a .38? Or a 9mm which is .355?