Dahua vs Lorex system (IPC-HFW5830E-Z LNB8973BW)

[madmagpilot]

First post.

Have been looking through the forum since November, educating myself and looking for a camera system for the house. Ill briefly describe what my goal is and then get to specifics on camera selection.

House is/was a new build I ran cat 5e to the locations that I thought would give me the best coverage during construction. 16 points to be exact.

Wanted 360 degree coverage of house (close ot the house as well as approaching house)
sits on multiacre parcel that is somewhat rural (ie very little amibient light from other properties)
most of cat 5e drops are in the soffits (21 ft in the air)

After reading through the forum on placement I probably screwed up with running the drops in the soffit(too high) and even the drop on the porch is too high. all are easy fixes and with doing the temp rigs approach will get it figured out.

The dilema if you can call it is the cameras to get. After the reseach on the forum it seems that the 2MP starlight(STARVIS) in the 5231 or the 8320 series is the way to go. I have also seen some of the test of the HFW5830E-Z (8MP STARVIS) that look pretty good.

I purchased a Lorex system that is 8MP system with 8 bullet and 8 turret (fix lens) ($2499)
4K Ultra HD IP NVR System with 16 Outdoor 4K 8MP IP Cameras, 250FT Night Vision

Thought it was a decent deal and have an option to purchase another 8MP system that 4 bullet and 4 turrets (vari zoom lens and all) ($1599)
4K Ultra HD IP NVR System with 8 Outdoor 4K 8MP IP Cameras, 250FT Night Vision

After looking at the specs of the Lorex cameras they appear to be the same cameras (HDW5830R-Z..LNE8974BW) HFW5830E-Z..LNB8973BW). the Dahua models say they are STRARVIS and the Lorex uses the more generic EXMOR R CMOS but in the same 1/2.5 formfactor. Question is there a way to tell by looking at the chip if it the STAVIS chip?

From a price point the cameras for the 2500 dollar system works out to $162/camera which is pretty good deal and the 1599 works out to be $200/camera if I purchase 2 systems (end up with an extra NVR) or a single 8 camera set up and purchase the rest from Andy.

so questions I have are

1. If I decide to ditch the NVR and go the Blue Iris route will I be able to update the cameras to the dahua firmware or perhaps there is something that is added to keep it Lorex proprietary and same question in reference to the NVR of "flashing"it Dahua so I could get the IVS support back?

2. If I add the starlight cameras to the NVR would I have to do anything specials with the firmware or keep it updated and then just run it through the remote system that was mentioned on the board in another thread.

Maybe I need to get a hold of a starlight 5231 and run some test against the Lorex that I am currently testing out. So far I have been happy with the results at night. Much better than the system I tested last year from Lorex.

Again thanks for the info and knowledge on this forum it has been a great help.

Scott

 

[usaf_pride]

@EMPIRETECANDY can probably sell you the cameras for the same price. You will get the Dahua brand. Contact him for pricing and you may be pretty close to the same. Then you eliminate all UG concerns as the equipment is all OEM.

 

[aristobrat]

As you've noticed, Dahua has a range of cameras that have STARVIS image sensors in them. FWIW, only the models that Dahua gives the "Starlight" tag to will perform as well as the 5231 in low light.

Most of my cameras are 5231s (Starlights). I also have one 5631, which is essentially the 6MP version of the 5231 <but it does not have a Starlight tag>. Even though the 5631 has a slightly larger STARVIS image sensor (1/2.9" vs 1/2.8"), but there are now 6MP projecting on it, which makes the physical size of each pixel on the sensor much smaller as compared to the 5231, which only has 2MP projecting on that sensor. The smaller the size of each pixel on the sensor, the less light the sensor can capture, which leads to a darker image. Depending on where you want to use the camera (and how dark it gets there), this can be a concern (or not).

I've only played around with the 5631 for a bit, but so far in low light conditions, the image is noticeably more dark compared to one of my 5231s mounted in the same location. For that reason, when I finally get around to permanently mounting the 5631, it's going to have to go in one of the best lighted spots around my house. That makes it less versatile for me.

I'd def. recommend getting a 5231 and running some tests with it. When I started my build, I had a 3MP Hik camera and I was happy with it (including its low light performance). I absolutely did not want to 'downgrade' to 2MP 5231s to possibly get better low light performance, so I ordered one to try out. Loved it. It's now my (and a lot of forum members) go-to camera model for locations where the light varies.

If you go the Blue Iris route, I don't the think the camera firmware is going to matter much. BI used ONVIF to query my 5231s when I added them, which gave BI enough info to be able to digitally zoom/focus, get audio, etc. So from BI's point of view, it's a "generic" camera. I do all motion detection within BI (not the camera).

 

[wopi82]

1/2.9" is smaller than 1/2.8". And so, there are more pixels on a smaller sensor

 

[aristobrat]

1/2.9" is smaller than 1/2.8". And so, there are more pixels on a smaller sensor

I hate fractions.

So the 5631 has a smaller sensor, and that smaller sensor is trying to work with a lot more pixels, which results in a lot less light collected per pixel (compared to the 5231's larger sensor and fewer pixels). Does that sound correct?

 

[madmagpilot]

Thanks for the replies, I sent an email to Andy the other night, awaiting pricing. sent it to kingsecurity2014@163.com. Is that the best email address for him? As Ive gone throught this process and thinking future upgrades and additions I am leaning on sending the Lorex stuff back and start over with the "tested/vetted" Dahua system. Was doing a little comparison with the cameras in the lorex system and I like the bullet camera much better than the turret carmera (fixed zoom) in day light performance as was much better at night. (both 8MP cameras). I had ordered one Lorex 8 MP turret camera with a zoom(LNE8974BW) and it should arrive tomorrow so Ill get to compare it to the bullet camera.

Aristobrat thanks for the comparison. The "downgrade" to a lower MP camera is something that I "struggle" with but I am getting there since I have looked at image quality that folks are getting out of the 5231 compared to what I am getting with the 8MP cameras. good info on the starlight tag vs the STARVIS CMOS. I assumed that since STARVIS and starlight were the same and that Dahua took the STARVIS (star vision) and spun it into starlight to market it.

As far as the Blue Iris is that the best solution or is it a depends on the goal of each project (ie blue iris good for project 1 and NVR better for project 2)

 

[mat200]

First post.

..
I purchased a Lorex system that is 8MP system with 8 bullet and 8 turret (fix lens) ($2499)
4K Ultra HD IP NVR System with 16 Outdoor 4K 8MP IP Cameras, 250FT Night Vision

Thought it was a decent deal and have an option to purchase another 8MP system that 4 bullet and 4 turrets (vari zoom lens and all) ($1599)
4K Ultra HD IP NVR System with 8 Outdoor 4K 8MP IP Cameras, 250FT Night Vision

After looking at the specs of the Lorex cameras they appear to be the same cameras (HDW5830R-Z..LNE8974BW) HFW5830E-Z..LNB8973BW). the Dahua models say they are STRARVIS and the Lorex uses the more generic EXMOR R CMOS but in the same 1/2.5 formfactor. Question is there a way to tell by looking at the chip if it the STAVIS chip?

..
1. If I decide to ditch the NVR and go the Blue Iris route will I be able to update the cameras to the dahua firmware or perhaps there is something that is added to keep it Lorex proprietary and same question in reference to the NVR of "flashing"it Dahua so I could get the IVS support back?

..

Welcome Scott,

The Lorex deals around BF-cyber week were very good, for some good decent hardware.

EXMOR R and STARVIS: Starvis is a Sony trademark which they use for a subsection of EXMOR sensors. Dahua is using some of those STARVIS imaging sensors in their Dahua Starlight OEM line ( 2MP cameras ). The Lorex 4K / 8MP Nocturnal line of cameras are using a EXMOR sensor - same tech as the 2MP STARVIS tech, however ( as others have noted ) basically using the same size chip for 4x the pixels. Thus the STARVIS chips at 2MP will out perform in low light the same tech chip using 8MP in the basically same chip size.

As you know the downside to Lorex is that they've disabled some of the IVS features compared to the Dahua OEM versions you've been comparing them to. Lorex is encouraging people instead to use their "motion detection" features. This may not really be that significant of an issue to many, and for others it maybe.

If you decide to go with Blue Iris - the processing can be done in Blue Iris ( a reason why you want a good i5/i7 system ) instead - so it may not matter so much that the camera has IVS features.

I believe one should be able to flash Dahua OEM firmware on to these - the question is which version of the Dahua OEM firmware would work. Until someone tests this theory, we do not yet have enough information on it.

If Andy can beat the price of that kit for like products please do let us know.

 

[madmagpilot]

Mat200, thanks for the words, to clarify you mentioned that Blue Iris would be able to do the IVS function, hence the Lorex motion detect and Dahua IVS function is embedded in the respective NVR. Would that be correct?

 

[mat200]

Mat200, thanks for the words, to clarify you mentioned that Blue Iris would be able to do the IVS function, hence the Lorex motion detect and Dahua IVS function is embedded in the respective NVR. Would that be correct?

Hi Madmagpilot,

The compute of "IVS features" can happen in either the camera or the VMS / NVR. ( Note that IVS is the term Dahua uses - thus the quotes )

A lot of the advantages of IP cameras is the ability of the camera to do compute tasks also relieving the NVR of that duty. I believe this is what typically happens with a Dahua OEM IVS setup where the camera does the compute and not the NVR.

Example of on camera compute: One of the compute tasks is H.264 or H.265 encoding.
IP cameras with more processing power and better firmware naturally can do more.

Typically consumers do not really fully understand the value of the more advanced features and thus many kits try to reduce the prices of components - and in the case of Lorex, perhaps for business reasons imho, they've decided that the more advanced features would not be as useful to make money as the motion based features. Maybe this has something to do with tech support and the greater complexity of setting up IVS rules, maybe this has something to do with reducing the compute overhead on the cameras, maybe this has to do with the fact that Dahua IVS features have not yet been coded to be compatible with H.265 encoding ( from what I have read - hopefully the software devs will update this soon ), or a combination of that. [ update - see @nosnoop reply below .. note, some more affordable models you want to double check on the status - esp. the super affordable hacked Chinese market cameras ]

When you're using a powerful computer with multiple different brands of IP cameras it can get complex to work with the different APIs and other interop issues - so it makes sense to do a lot more compute on the PC, and that would include the equivalent of "IVS" features within the VMS platform ( such as Blue Iris ).

 

[madmagpilot]

Thanks for the explaination. I sent in an inquire to the Lorex folks on the cameras "origins" we'll see if they reply.

 

[nosnoop]

...maybe this has to do with the fact that Dahua IVS features have not yet been coded to be compatible with H.265 encoding

The IVS features work fine with H.265 in 5231.

 

[mat200]

The IVS features work fine with H.265 in 5231.

Great news, thanks! ( note, a few months ago I was still seeing some notes on significantly more affordable Dahua OEM cameras with warnings from vendors regarding H.265 )

 

[PapaBill]

And to let ya know, if this helps , didnt see it here, but I aksed Lorex about using other cams with their nvr, and they said NOPE only LOREX.
And that is why I am looking at Andy's nvrs now and cams, Only negative so far is they are not black, but its not that hard to spray the covers.

 

[mat200]

And to let ya know, if this helps , didnt see it here, but I aksed Lorex about using other cams with their nvr, and they said NOPE only LOREX.
And that is why I am looking at Andy's nvrs now and cams, Only negative so far is they are not black, but its not that hard to spray the covers.

Hi PapaBill,

They're not being fully forthright - perhaps to reduce the number of support calls for non-Lorex products.

A number of members here and else where have been able to get Dahua OEM starlight cameras to work with the Lorex NVRs. Also the lorex NVRs are listed as ONVIF compliant, and members here have even reported getting the ONVIF Hikvision OEM ( LTS, LaView, Nelly's security camera ) 1080p video doorbell to work with the Lorex NVR ( at least to some basic functionality )

So, IF you have a Lorex NVR - Definitely DO look at the Dahua OEM starlights to augment your kit if you need better low light performance.

 

[PapaBill]

Hi PapaBill,

They're not being fully forthright - perhaps to reduce the number of support calls for non-Lorex products.

A number of members here and else where have been able to get Dahua OEM starlight cameras to work with the Lorex NVRs. Also the lorex NVRs are listed as ONVIF compliant, and members here have even reported getting the ONVIF Hikvision OEM ( LTS, LaView, Nelly's security camera ) 1080p video doorbell to work with the Lorex NVR ( at least to some basic functionality )

So, IF you have a Lorex NVR - Definitely DO look at the Dahua OEM starlights to augment your kit if you need better low light performance.

thanx for the heads up, I was looking at getting a lorex also, but decided to go ahead and start building a Andy set, since I want a good ptz and lorez has crap ptz's
But maybe I can get a good deal with lorex then and just buy a ptz.

 

[nymphaeles]

@madmagpilot

I have a Lorex LNK7163C6D34B system, which is a LNK7000 NVR and some LKB343 & LKE343 4MP cameras.

I have several issues with the system:

Pros:
1. It's plug & play: cameras and NVR work well together.
2. In general, the system provides pretty good quality images under well-lit conditions.

Cons:
1. Images are not usable in low light conditions.
2. Both NVR and Cameras do not work reliably. I have gaps in recordings in all channels at one time or another. Most of the time, a cam just stop recording. For other times, the nvr itself becomes non-responsive and all channels lose their recordings. This happens quite a few time a week.
3. When I first received the system, one camera came was out of focus (single focal lens, bullet cam). After 4 months, another bullet cam went dead. On Amazon, a cam like these sells for about 200 USD. Costco at one time had a 2-pack sold for 200 USD.
4. Tech Support is virtually non-existing, do not count on it. In my situations, I opened a ticket to them trying to get the out-of-focus cam replaced, and they never responded. I did get notifications on my ticket closing, which was amusing. Since I bought the system from Costco, Costco Concierge Service opened a ticket with Lorex on my behalf, and got me connected to Lorex tech support. During the call, they said they will call me back if I got disconnected, which happened to the call, and they never called me back. The cam replacement did show up to my door after about a month.
5. Mobile app for iPhone/iPad/Android client doesn't work. I opened a ticket on this for Lorex, too. The reply I got from Lorex was "We are currently aware of this issue, and we are working on multiple updates for the remote apps for new iOS versions, please note that iOS 11 uses a x64 bit architecture that is currently being updated to make it compatible to these new devices during the upcoming days, in the meantime you can use other applications like "Digimerge" which follows a similar layout and should be compatible to use with your system.", and the ticket got closed (Sept 2017). Yet, Lorex advertises that their system is "Connected On-The-Go" with remote live viewing using their mobile app.
6. I couldn't get a Lorex LKB343 bullet cam connected to BI from the network. I couldn't get to a LKB343 from a network from a browser. I couldn't get a LKB343 cam to connect to Dahua DHI-NVR52A16-16K-4KS. I've heard someone could, but I could not. I did not try a LKE343 cam as it seemed to be hopeless to me.
7. I could not get a Dahua DH-IPC-HDW5231R-Z to connect to the Lorex NVR LNK7200.

I bought this system for 1,300 USD plus tax. I'm not happy with it so I have taken it off line.

 

[mat200]

@madmagpilot

I have a Lorex LNK7163C6D34B system, which is a LNK7000 NVR and some LKB343 & LKE343 4MP cameras.

I have several issues with the system:

Pros:
1. It's plug & play: cameras and NVR work well together.
2. In general, the system provides pretty good quality images under well-lit conditions.

Cons:
1. Images are not usable in low light conditions.
2. Both NVR and Cameras do not work reliably.
...7. I could not get a Dahua DH-IPC-HDW5231R-Z to connect to the Lorex NVR LNK7200.

I bought this system for 1,300 USD plus tax. I'm not happy with it so I have taken it off line.

Hi nymphaeles,

Sounds like a great time to return it all back to Costco with a copy of the cons you've listed taped to the box.

What I have seen is that in general many companies in the DIY install security camera space are doing a fairly inconsistent job for customer support and frequently failing in a number of ways.

 

[Yollie]

And to let ya know, if this helps , didnt see it here, but I aksed Lorex about using other cams with their nvr, and they said NOPE only LOREX.
And that is why I am looking at Andy's nvrs now and cams, Only negative so far is they are not black, but its not that hard to spray the covers.

Um wrong I have 2 Dahuas running on my new Lorex nvr.

 

[PapaBill]

Um wrong I have 2 Dahuas running on my new Lorex nvr.

Thanx for the heads up.
I guess Lorex only wants their crap sold,