Divulging to much info on here

ludshed

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I’d been thinking about this since I joined, I see a lot of people posting screenshots of hardware info and leaving serial numbers unredacted. I just mentioned this in another thread but thought it deserved its own. As a dahua dealer all I need to gain access to a cam/nvr is for it to be online and have p2p enabled, which is by default, and people plugging cameras directly to nvr, even if disabling p2p on nvr cameras are still accessible. Dahua has back doors like everything else and it will have a different daily password that can’t easily be disabled.

just an observation
 

mat200

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I’d been thinking about this since I joined, I see a lot of people posting screenshots of hardware info and leaving serial numbers unredacted. I just mentioned this in another thread but thought it deserved its own. As a dahua dealer all I need to gain access to a cam/nvr is for it to be online and have p2p enabled, which is by default, and people plugging cameras directly to nvr, even if disabling p2p on nvr cameras are still accessible. Dahua has back doors like everything else and it will have a different daily password that can’t easily be disabled.

just an observation
Good points, a note what I like to do:

1) A little painters tape or electrical tape or even a slice of a post-it over the serial number when you take a picture of the equipment is useful.

2) Isolate my equipment so you can not access it over the internet.
 
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If you want to watch my PIT BULLS playing in the back yard or my flower garden. I will gladly give you access. Most people are not doing anything illegal,so it’s no big deal. Would you be able to access my desktop , I don’t think so. Thanks for sharing.
 

samueljh1

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If you want to watch my PIT BULLS playing in the back yard or my flower garden. I will gladly give you access. Most people are not doing anything illegal,so it’s no big deal. Would you be able to access my desktop , I don’t think so. Thanks for sharing.
The vulnerabilities allow me to bypass your firewall and access any device in your LAN. I could listen to unencrypted comms, control your printer, access local file servers, control your smart home etc. I made a demo that allowed me to control my HomeKit setup remotely. These things are shockingly dangerous.
 

wittaj

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If you want to watch my PIT BULLS playing in the back yard or my flower garden. I will gladly give you access. Most people are not doing anything illegal,so it’s no big deal. Would you be able to access my desktop , I don’t think so. Thanks for sharing.
If your cameras are touching the internet, folks can certainly access your computer. It has been proven time and time again and we get posts here periodically where someone was hacked in just that way.

If you think scanning a QR code and using P2P doesn't put your entire LAN at risk, you are mistaken.
 

Perimeter

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The vulnerabilities allow me to bypass your firewall and access any device in your LAN.
In your synopsis, you make this dependant on knowledge of the serial number. But if the attack is done via P2P, would not the camera need to have access to the net? So if P2P is disabled and the camera is denied web access in the router, what routes of attack remain?

After all, you can't keep the serial a secret as someone else knows it before you know it.
 

samueljh1

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In your synopsis, you make this dependant on knowledge of the serial number. But if the attack is done via P2P, would not the camera need to have access to the net? So if P2P is disabled and the camera is denied web access in the router, what routes of attack remain?
The specific modules in question provide no option to disable p2p. However, if disconnected from the internet, anyone on the LAN could still bypass the auth and gain full access. This includes shell, live stream and full downloading of the filesystem.
 

Perimeter

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After reflecting on this for a while, I wonder what you suggest? Of course: Don't leak serials on the internet. But then serials are on many boxes. Whoever packed my cameras knows them. And maybe he knows who I am and where I live, as he may have slapped the mail label on the parcel. The djinn is out before I even get the bottle...
So where do we go from here?
 

samueljh1

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After reflecting on this for a while, I wonder what you suggest? Of course: Don't leak serials on the internet. But then serials are on many boxes. Whoever packed my cameras knows them. And maybe he knows who I am and where I live, as he may have slapped the mail label on the parcel. The djinn is out before I even get the bottle...
So where do we go from here?
If you have one, throw it out. If you don't have one, don't buy one. It is possible to enumerate (or brute-force) serials. You aren't necessarily safe because you haven't posted it anywhere. By enumerating serials, its possible to spawn up a botnet of all online devices. If it's connected to the internet, it could be part of a DDoS army, crypto farm, mass surveillance etc.
 

looney2ns

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wittaj

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The P2P/QR code/port forwarding is how they are gaining access. They do not need your serial number, but in @Perimeter example, if the delivery driver wanted to hack you, the serial number on the box does make that easier.

There are lots of examples where the security devices (ironic isn't it) are not very secure from the internet and pass information unencrypted before the P2P handshake begins...

Millions of people around the world want the simplicity of Internet of Things (IoTs) to be easy to connect to their system and work. They do not want to deal with security. They wrongfully assume that because they bought it and all they have to do is scan a QR code, that all is good. A manufacturer also doesn't want to deal with endless phone calls from consumers asking how to set something up, so they make it easy.

So these companies create these QR codes/P2P and magically the new device can be seen on the consumers app. Consumer is happy. But, this device has opened up the system to gain easy access to your entire network.

I have a friend that falls under this "I just want to plug it in and scan a code and it works" mindset. Many years ago she bought a Foscam wifi camera to monitor her front door. She plugged it in and pointed it out a 2nd story window and downloaded the Foscam app and scanned the QR code and magically she could see her camera through the magic of P2P.

A few years later she bought a wifi printer and again, simply downloaded the app from the manufacturer and scanned the QR code and she could start printing.

One time in the middle of the night, she hears her printer printing a page. She thinks maybe she is dreaming or hearing things, so she thinks nothing of it and goes back to sleep. Next morning she gets up and indeed her printer did print something in the middle of the night and the printed page says I SEE YOU and a picture of her from her Foscam camera was below the text.

She changes her wifi password in case it was the peeping perv next door that she has caught looking at her from through her window and he guessed her password, which was password because she liked things simple.:banghead:

Problem still persists. She goes into Foscam app and changes the password to the camera. Problem still persists. She gets a new router and sets up a stronger password for wifi and changed the passwords of all of her devices. Problem still persists. She gets rid of camera and printer.

At some point Foscam issues a security vulnerability and issued a firmware update. Basically the vulnerability was something like when logging into the camera with a web browser over HTTPS, the initial login to the P2P site is done using SSL. But then it establishes a connection to the HTTPS port again (for the media service) and sends all of its commands unencrypted. This means the username and passwords are being sent unencrypted. While this was a security vulnerability found in Foscam, I suspect it is in others as well. I suspect this is how my friend was hacked and someone was sending pictures of her taken from her Foscam camera to her wifi printer that she set up using the QR code.

Many articles on this site and out on the internet show how vulnerable these devices can be. I remember seeing an article of a webpage showing like 75,000 video streams around the world that were hacked into because of these vulnerabilities. I know there is an article someone on this forum where someone posted that many of these cameras do send passwords totally unencrypted and wide open easy to see for anyone knowing what they are doing.

Do not assume that because it is a name brand that they actually have good security on these cameras or any device for that matter. Think about the typical end-user that just wants simplicity to connect. And then think how a company would go about that to provide that simplicity. End result is to provide that simplicity, it comes at a cost and that cost is security vulnerabilities, which is ironic for security cameras. But if it can happen to Amazon/Ring (which is a fairly large company), it can happen to anyone, especially all the no-name brands being sold on Amazon.

For that reason, most of us here prevent our systems from having access to the internet.
 

Perimeter

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If you have one, throw it out.
There are risks with a camera and there are risks without a camera. Which risk is worse? Seems difficult to figure out.

So on a more practical or empirical note, there are lots and lots of blink cameras around. They are all connected to the net via P2P. They are hardly more expensive than one of those spy cams. So here we have a large population of cheap P2P cameras.
I googled several times in the past for "blink hacked". And I found a lot of theoretical stuff "can they be hacked?". But I found surprisingly little information on them being actually hacked. Like reports from victims. Now when I put this into proportion, it seems on first inspection, that more blink owners will face the crimes they bought the cameras to defend against than face crimes they only became succeptible to, due to using the camera. Yes, I agree, not all cyber victims will notice being hacked or identify it as their problem.

My point is, life IS risk. And you correctly point to another one. But what I kind of miss in the discussion here (didn't read your paper, might be present, sorry then) is a risk comparison. Is it more likely that your cheap china cam is hacked or that it's cheap PSU catches fire? And just because cheap china PSUs may catch fire, should we stop using PSUs? Or are there low risk PSUs and high risk PSUs and the trick is to chose those with the lower risk? Because we know, all PSUs can catch fire. But some are safer than others.
 
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antus

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I have dahua brand cameras, and I am not cool wtih the smartpss app requiring admin access to run on my PC. I don't think it should need this for normal operation and I fear that it is part of a manufacturer backdoor to my PC. I can and do isolate my cameras and NVR, but I want to keep internet access on my main PC where I monitor cams. Does anyone have a convenient solution for this, or know of 3rd party software to monitor multiple cameras? I want to be able to monitor up to 6 4K cameras with scaled view of primary or sub streams on my second display and click them to see full res, the ability to zoom, the ability to turn on audio, and the ability to playback from the NVR - essentially smart pss minus the admin to run requirement. Even better if I dont have to install it all. Something like a portable app that can store its config and that runs without admin maybe?
 

Valiant

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How long before manufacturers include a GPS receiver in their cameras?. Whether installed as a feature or secretly, images may divulge their exact location embedded in exif data.

If a current cctv system was hacked, it's likely difficult to identify it's location. Inclusion of GPS hardware would lift the risk significantly.
 
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