Economic solution to view IP CAMs on TVs

[karateo]

Hi!

I just got a Hikvision 2032 for testing and I like it a lot.

I will use 6-8 of those for home surveillance using a Synology as a recorder.

I want to be able to watch one or more cameras through my TVs at different rooms.

What would you suggest as a good and economic solution?

I have watched someone using an android tv stick at the back of the TV using for example IP CAM VIEWER application.
I understand that this a cheap solution for one TV with a lot capabilities.
I will need as many android tv sticks as my TVs.

Another solution would be ONE android tv stick at the basement "injecting" the HDMI signal through standatd tv cable (coaxial?).

Any ideas?

 

[icerabbit]

Does your Synology have some type of video output?
Because that will simplify things and save electricity, if the nvr (your synology) has a video out.

Also, running that many cams requires a pretty beefy disk station to handle the live view.

I wanted to carry the signal on multiple screens as well and did not want the maintenance, configuration, app compatibilities etc that came with a series of android sticks. Plus I was concerned about their cpu power to carry the signal of 9 cams.

Since I have the live view on screen that I want on the TVs, I could just multiply the hdmi signal and use extra long hdmi cables. But the cost of long hdmi cable adds up very quickly ($1/ft). Plus you need to know the lenghth for every run and cable is hard to snake. And at some point the cables get too long or can't carry it.

I considered wireless hdmi distribution, but cost, range and interference were concerns.

Enter ethernet extenders. You can transmit all kinds of stuff over ethernet. It used to take two ethernet wires per video, but now one cat 6 works between the transmitter and receiver. And ethernet cable is a lot cheaper than hdmi, custom length, self crimping, ... ($135/1000ft). Plus the video network does not interfere with any wifi and doesn't even take up network bandwidth.

So, I multiply the computer hdmi video signal from my pc nvr and the extend that over ethernet to the TVs, where a small reciever converts it back to hdmi. You can either do a standalone video (hdmi) multiplier of your choice and however many hdmi ethernet extender kits. Or there is a multiplier box with built-in transmission for x4 or x8 and extender receivers.

If monoprice search worked like it should, I'd copy the url or product number here; but I'll get to that in the next post. Don't want to lose this post.

Of course my solution requires running ethernet, which may or may not be possible, practical, easy, a diy project for some properties and/or homeowners.

URLs:

1x8 hdmi extender
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011308&p_id=8160&seq=1&format=2


1x4 hdmi extender
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011307&p_id=8159&seq=1&format=2

In its simplest form you can use a regular hdmi splitter and a extend with a couple extenders. athen expand as needed. I picked the kit as it simplifies things on the distribution end and I need less outlets.

And to come back around to the synology ds, if it doesn't have video out, you'd need to use the android stick or something else as the video source.

I thought about injecting the surveilance signal as tv station on coax, but couldn't find a solution. That would be the simplest. If one could make an HD channel 0 or 1 on the line where it comes in the house.

 

[karateo]

Thanks for your feedback!
It's a new house and I have run through the walls 3x CAT6 cables at each room (one for the phone line but it's free to use it as I want).

Your solution (HDMI externder) is not possible as I can not run new hdmi cables and also, you can not take control of the source unit through hdmi.
Also, I do not need to view simultaneously which your solution would be perfect.

Unfortunately my synology does not have a video out.
I could buy this
https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/overview/VS240HD
but it is pricey ~400euros!

I believe that with a 4-core or 8-core android stick I could achieve high fps at 1080p (total).
Its camera will use about 640x480 as it only occupies a proportion of the screen and a higher resolution would be waste of cpu resources.

PS. I don't like wireless networks, so even the android sticks will use ethernet.

 

[icerabbit]

You misunderstood the hdmi extender concept, or it got lost in my thought process and all I typed out.

It doesn't use an extra long hdmi cable end to end for each location, instead it goes over cheaper ethernet. ( but with a small property, one can just use hdmi cable and forego the extending cost)

If you have 3x cat6 running to every room, you are all set to get surveillance live view in every room, as you would use one of the cat6 to carry the surveilance signal.

It goes like this:

any live view video source (syno, nvr, pc, android stick, ...) + adapter as needed to get to an hdmi plug ---- hdmi cable into hdmi multiplier + transmitter all-in-one /or/ single hdmi to ethernet transmitter ---- long ethernet cat 6 cable ---- ethernet jack a the wall ---- short ethernet cable ---- ethernet to hdmi receicer ---- hdmi cable to tv hdmi in

I agree on wired over wireless.

You are correct that at the TVs I don't have control over the recorder, but does one need it?

I'm curious to the need to control the nvr remotely through every tv, or have every tvs view to be different, or something; that it would require a pc like device.

I factored the security overview, instant on and idiot proof factors higher than remote control. The mosaic live feed is there to have an instant situational overview, anywhere the feed is, and be able to respond quickly. In a potential security situation time matters. I don't want to have to switch feeds, enlarge screens to catch details, ... I just let the NVR do its thing for that; the recordings can be reviewed later.

As needed I can sit down next to the nvr for major adjustments or maintenance.

And using remote access I tap in remotely with pc, laptop, ipad, phone, ... if I want to switch feeds around, focus on one feed in particular, etc. But, for the latter I typically pull a direct feed up on an extra screen. Or switch live views to include one large feed, while keeping the rest up smaller.

I litterally have sat around the house with a laptop, messing with settings to see them instantly change on the mosaic on TV screens. That's part of the beauty in my opinion that they're all the same without extra setup per tv. I really did not want to have a keyboard and mouse at every TV, having to set things up per tv and doing it all over again when a camera is added or replaced, and every day needing to interact, etc.

And, don't forget the family / guest factor of teaching other people, them messing with features, settings, ...

But everybody's needs differ. Some just want a few cams vs a ton of them
Some people don't want live view, some do. Some want rotating feed views.
Some people want two nvrs, 24/7 recording, ...

Anyway, just wanted to clarify my thoughts and part of the decision process I went through.

 

[Mike]

Something that you could do is grab an Android stick (I have this one http://flark.it/minipc which is a few years old, but still works) and a mini keyboard / mouse (like this one http://flark.it/minikeyboard). You can use the DS Cam app or IP Cam Viewer as well. I've been using this solution for over a year now without issues

 

[Razer]

I can think of nothing truly cheap, and everything I personally use would only work for basic viewing and would require a computer to be running to get the video out through VGA or HDMI or whatever.

I have used the MuxLab equipment to take a VGA output and split it over CAT5 to 4-5 TVs for example. $1000 roughly.

I recently used Seawell HDMI over cat 5/6 adapters with great results, and you could use those with an HDMI splitter off a computer easily enough.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0089NLSGU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That would work fine with the HDMI splitters that icerabbit showed above in his links. Again though, for 4 TVs you are getting close to $1000 and all you are getting is what the computer is showing. With 8 cameras maybe you make a quad rotation 8-10 seconds a screen so at most you are only 10 seconds from seeing the other 4 cameras?

In the end the Android stick is cheapest I bet, the adapters to send video over cat 5 are usually the cost of the android sticks!


I send to TVs for office use and video wall building but for home use many just uses at tablet or phone to view cameras, TVs are not even thought of with other ways being so much easier. I use Exacq for instance and they have apps or all phone OSes and a great web client too I can see cameras many ways without trying very hard. At home I just grab my iPad or Android tablet and view form there as needed. I also use the apps to open the gate and such when I'm coming home - I can even review footage in the apps though the PC experience is vastly better. I think more software vendors need to concentrate on apps if they want to go after home users anyway, it is just so much better for the end user.

 

[icerabbit]

TV viewing indeed is in lesser demand compared to analog days, due to the mobile devices we now all tend to have. People are more interested in remote viewing off-site. And, I certainly have used my phone and tablet too for mobile viewing, from time to time. Probably would do that more if I didn't have TVs hardwired.

I have one of those android sticks, but it is an older model. Knock on wood they hopefully have come a ways in being faster. At the time that I got it a few years ago (to get a browser on a secondary tv) I wasn't impressed with it, even for the most basic internet browsing, and it has been sitting somewhere in a drawer ever since. Guess I'll have to dig it out and give it a whirl. See if it can be repurposed for something.

Anyway. Personally, I just like the convenience of pressing power on a tv (or switching hdmi if watching something else) at the press of a button and think that can't be matched by my mobile experience (undock, try to unlock, finger print not recognized, tap code, etc.) Especially if you have a hard time going back to sleep after an interruption, the shorter and more hassle free the interruption, the better. For that reason alone it was worth getting the kit. All the rest is just bonuses on top. Idiot proof. Less maintenance / update and compatibility woes, instead of more. And I'm guessing 160/4 or 274/8 + ethernet cable + fittings + some hdmi cables isn't far off from an android stick + keyb & mouse ... provided cable can be run DIY.

 

[dr.]

Thanks for your feedback!
It's a new house and I have run through the walls 3x CAT6 cables at each room (one for the phone line but it's free to use it as I want).

Your solution (HDMI externder) is not possible as I can not run new hdmi cables and also, you can not take control of the source unit through hdmi.
Also, I do not need to view simultaneously which your solution would be perfect.

Unfortunately my synology does not have a video out.
I could buy this
https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/overview/VS240HD
but it is pricey ~400euros!

I believe that with a 4-core or 8-core android stick I could achieve high fps at 1080p (total).
Its camera will use about 640x480 as it only occupies a proportion of the screen and a higher resolution would be waste of cpu resources.

PS. I don't like wireless networks, so even the android sticks will use ethernet.

You're going to drop cash on cam licenses for the Synology, yet you want an economical solution to this? To each his own.

Everything is just a giant mess when using distribution amps (bnc, rca, or etc) or moca adapters or HDMI or etc.

Use android devices running iVMS-4500 at each tv.
You can view the live feeds from one or all cameras.

or

Dump the NAS for a cheap i3 PC running iVMS-4200.
Use android devices running iVMS-4500 at each tv.
You can view, playback, use PTZ, search, etc for all cameras.
Use the NAS as archive storage.

 

[icerabbit]

Karateo may not be aware of licensing detail that yet ...

 

[karateo]

I already own a DS212j with an extra 4-licence pack (+2 free) but my model supports up to 5 cameras.

I am planning on buying a much more powerful system ~300-400 euros plus the licences.
The alternative needs a whole more time to set up.

I own a 300Gb photo/video gallery which I keep copies at 3 different sites.
The synology can easily rsync and has the DS Photo android app.

I will also use it's download manager for torrent downloading.

I will use it as the home server for all the files and make it sync to a remote site.

If I decided to go custom, it will need a lot of hours of setup plus troubleshooting in the future.
I don't buy the hardware but the software.

In the beginning I might start with an old laptop for recording but only until I find the money for the big synology.

I am looking for a cheap solution for remote viewing as I don't believe as, you stated, that I will be doing that through a TV a lot.
But it's a lot more easy just to open the TV at bedroom at HDMI and watch all cameras at once if I hear something than opening the app through my smartphone/table that I have left in airplane mode.

Propably the most usefull advice is that I will not control through EACH TV.
So,
I think I will get either a Synology with HDMI out, or an android tv stick with HDMI out and inject that signal through coaxial at a specific channel.
Then If I need more control, I could remotely manage the android stick and change for all the house the display for that channel.

I just need now to find how much will it cost the HDMI-to-coaxial concept!

The idea of an android tv stick at EACH tv would cause a huge load at my home network I think.

 

[catseyenu]

I just noticed my TV has a VGA port, I'm going to try a couple of these.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA3XM1MR8797&cm_re=vga_extender-_-9SIA3XM1MR8797-_-Product

 

[icerabbit]

I already own a DS212j with an extra 4-licence pack (+2 free) but my model supports up to 5 cameras.

I am planning on buying a much more powerful system ~300-400 euros plus the licences.
The alternative needs a whole more time to set up.

I own a 300Gb photo/video gallery which I keep copies at 3 different sites.
The synology can easily rsync and has the DS Photo android app.

I will also use it's download manager for torrent downloading.

I will use it as the home server for all the files and make it sync to a remote site.

If I decided to go custom, it will need a lot of hours of setup plus troubleshooting in the future.
I don't buy the hardware but the software.

In the beginning I might start with an old laptop for recording but only until I find the money for the big synology.

I am looking for a cheap solution for remote viewing as I don't believe as, you stated, that I will be doing that through a TV a lot.
But it's a lot more easy just to open the TV at bedroom at HDMI and watch all cameras at once if I hear something than opening the app through my smartphone/table that I have left in airplane mode.

Propably the most usefull advice is that I will not control through EACH TV.
So,
I think I will get either a Synology with HDMI out, or an android tv stick with HDMI out and inject that signal through coaxial at a specific channel.
Then If I need more control, I could remotely manage the android stick and change for all the house the display for that channel.

I just need now to find how much will it cost the HDMI-to-coaxial concept!

The idea of an android tv stick at EACH tv would cause a huge load at my home network I think.

I went custom as it was cheaper than another synology. Of course that was offset by the shopping around, assembly, firmware updates, software updates, etc. I personally do like synology surveillance station. It is very plug and play and pretty polished. I just think syno is a bit out of touch when it comes to prices of their DS for the hardware in the box.

Coming back to cheap solution for multiple tvs.

The network overhead may not be huge, but it could be noticeable depending on the # of streams and their quality settings times x TV sets.

I used to know more about a/v solutions. HDMI over existing coax is possible with an additional transmitter and then a receiver per TV. But several hundred dollars per unit. It would be fantastic to just have the security display on channel 0 or 1 on the tv and not have any additional boxes or wires; but getting hdmi to qam over coax ... now we're talking niche of a niche. I don't think it can be done under $1k. Zeevee products come to mind, but they only sell through authorized distributors and dealers. There's lots of neat things that can be done, but it really gets to be pro a/v and home automation territory (and $$$$)

 

[dr.]

I already own a DS212j with an extra 4-licence pack (+2 free) but my model supports up to 5 cameras.

I am planning on buying a much more powerful system ~300-400 euros plus the licences.
The alternative needs a whole more time to set up.

I own a 300Gb photo/video gallery which I keep copies at 3 different sites.
The synology can easily rsync and has the DS Photo android app.
...
I am looking for a cheap solution for remote viewing as I don't believe as, you stated, that I will be doing that through a TV a lot.
But it's a lot more easy just to open the TV at bedroom at HDMI and watch all cameras at once if I hear something than opening the app through my smartphone/table that I have left in airplane mode.

Propably the most usefull advice is that I will not control through EACH TV.
So,
I think I will get either a Synology with HDMI out, or an android tv stick with HDMI out and inject that signal through coaxial at a specific channel.
Then If I need more control, I could remotely manage the android stick and change for all the house the display for that channel.

I just need now to find how much will it cost the HDMI-to-coaxial concept!

The idea of an android tv stick at EACH tv would cause a huge load at my home network I think.

Load? What load? 3x cat6 = 3Gbps capacity. If that's cat6a, you really, really, really, don't have a bandwidth problem--ever.

Just buy 1-2 cheap tablet/smartphone + iVMS-4500 free app. Just leave the app open and running 24/7. That's faster than turning on a TV and changing inputs. You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You are going to waste tons of time and money hacking together a solution. You don't want to waste time on PCNVR/server, but you're going to waste the same amount in another area doing this.

 

[nayr]

I am buying a NVR w/Simultaneous Analogue Outputs and just hooking up a RF Modulator to a high channel number for a quick view in each bedroom TV and the HDMI will be hooked to the main TV..

The bedrooms have Roku's for Plex/Netflix/Amazon and if I want a HD view there is an app I can use but that is cumbersome in the middle of the night and takes too much time to execute.. I am putting an automation appliance in the attic above the bedrooms; If I wanted to be really clever I could wire up IR transmitters to each bedroom and turn the TV on and change the channel automagically if the alarm goes off (all same model of TV so it would be pretty easy).. I am sacrificing quality for situational awareness, which is the main desire of putting the cams up in the bedrooms.. ie Dorrbell wakes us up on a sunday morning I can just grab the remote next to me and see if its worth getting out of bed for.. anyone I know personally I can identify without HD and there is a good chance I wont have my glasses on yet so HD is the last thing I will see even if I had it..

We need china to start making cheap QAM Encoders/Modulators so we can broadcast 1080p HD over existing coax for less than an arm and a leg. (this isint cost effective until you have a dozen or more 1080p TV's you need to broadcast to; there popular in dorms, sports bars and stadiums)

RasberyPI's can stream 1080p h264 RSTP out the HDMI cable; but by the time you get a nice case/memory card your better off getting like a CuBox-I for a little more and have way more power to work with.. once you have more than 2-3 TV's it starts adding up..

Dont expect to get a handfull of Roku's/Androids streaming HD wirelessly at the same time reliability without some good access points to back them up.. most cheap consumer gear will be falling apart at those loads, causing dropouts, long load times, rebuffing and just intermittent issues.

 

[icerabbit]

I just noticed my TV has a VGA port, I'm going to try a couple of these.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA3XM1MR8797&cm_re=vga_extender-_-9SIA3XM1MR8797-_-Product

That's a very economic little solution to cover some distance. Probably just basic pin through.

What will you use as signal source and how long will your cable run be?

 

[catseyenu]

The Hikvision 7608NI-SE NVR source would have around a 50' run.

 

[catseyenu]

The problem for me with some of the possible solutions is not knowing if they work.
I'd be more interested in the
HDMI Over CAT5E / CAT6 Extender Wall Plate (Pair) w/ Built-In Backward IR Channel - Single Port (1P) - White

...but I don't know if the NVR's HDMI will work with passive HDMI much less if or how well the IR will work.
It's easier to possibly throw $3 away than $30.

 

[icerabbit]

It is (easier and cheaper to be out of $3)

I saw some of the other products, like the one you just mentioned, but most (monoprice and other) meant double the ethernet lines. Not the worst expense to use twice the cable, but can be impractical if you don't have enough wiggle room to squeeze two extra lines into an existing hole. Also, while these solutions on their own are great, and give a neat finished look on both ends with a wall plate; for distribution to multiple points you then needs several of those transmitter plates at the source. Not practical in my case.

The one thing I don't know, is whether the display handshake (edid) will be a problem, especially with that cheap adapter. I may be overthinking that part as most systems now just let you set a resolution whether it has ID'd the display or not. But is a concern. Also for HDMI. VGA may be more forgiving in that regard actually.

 

[karateo]

Let's summarise!

I need
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-Compact-RF-Modulator-CRF907R/dp/B0014KKV7W/ref=br_lf_m_1001185071_1_2_ttl?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&pf_rd_p=1880885522&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_i=1001185071&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=077RNGM98NV8V708N2R4

or better this
http://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/b7HvCvx2

and a android tv box (going to choose one soon)

I will connect the RCA out of the tv box to the modulator and inject into the existing coaxial.
( I didn't know about the RCA out. Otherwise I could HDMI-to-RCA and then RCA-to-COAX which is also cheap)
With an android-to-android remote control, or even desktop-to-android I am going to change views IF I need!

Less than 50 euros I believe.

Lastly, you have made rethink the synology surveillance server thing.
I have a core2duo desktop in the closet I could use.
But it will be very time consuming to manage remote backups plus photo gallery with user access control etc that the synology offers.

 

[icerabbit]

How many live view channels will you be viewing that way?
Because that little box is old school standard def.
That's the quality of one substream, and so things will look like an old webcam feed, robbed of detail. Several of us are looking beyond HD for live viewing and you're going the oppsite way.

Yes, you could use a pc to do surveillance, or to look at the live view. But both can be a bit resource intensive. And I'm confused what you are saying about time consuming, backups, photo galleries and users etc as it sounds like you'd give up your synology.

I have the impression you are complicating things and are going to lose the practical qualities you need ... or something is lost in conversation, and/or I need more coffee.