Gas Station Robbery - Need Help

[JamesJWP]

Hello everyone,

My father's gas station was broken into the other night- Someone rammed their truck into the front door and attempted to steal the ATM machine. Unfortunately, our current security cameras were too poor of quality to see what the thief looked like or the fine details of their car. Additionally, there's been more and more cases of people pumping gas and driving away without paying, so we're looking to upgrade our cameras.

I'm 19 years old in college, but my parents aren't fluent in English so I thought I would ask here for some help. I don't really know a lot, but I've briefly glanced at the cliff notes. Product recommendations would be extremely helpful. We definitely need cameras that can see license plates clearly in both day and night. Our budget is <$1000.

This is sort of what our current setup looks like for looking outdoors:

(This is a very rough outline. We're mainly concerned about the people who pump gas and run, and the pumps are currently around 60 feet away from our cameras).

I also had a few questions regarding this set up:

• Do I really need 4 cameras looking out like this, or can I just buy a couple with a greater field of vision range?
• Are there any other good camera placements I should consider or am missing (maybe like the gas price sign)?
• I understand that 8 MP cameras are good in daytime and 2 MP cameras are good in the nighttime, but does that mean we have to buy 2 separate cameras at each location, one for day and one for the night (and is this plausible for <$1000)?
• I saw on other recent forums that a lot of people like the Dahua IPC-HFW5231E-Z12 model, but would it still be worth it if we're probably not going to use its full range of >100 feet?
• Do I need to buy a new PC and DVR system to run this kind of stuff?

• Is it a good idea to install them inside, behind the windows, kind of like this? :

I do not have the indoor floorplan of the gas station, but we currently have a couple of bad quality dome cameras and one or two cameras looking down the aisles. I can upload the indoor floor plan if needed.


Thank you guys so much in advance. Again, product recommendations would be extremely helpful, both for the cameras looking outdoors and indoors. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

[catcamstar]

Welcome to IPCT forum James,

first off, good that you found the Cliff Notes!

But you have one main disadvantage: you seem to be in a "rush", and that makes it difficult, as IP camera's do require planning. Planning planning and planning. And more often than required: testing a cam on one position, evaluating and installing it on a better spot.

Regarding your point questions:
- 2MP are indeed great in night, but I suspect your gas station is also "light up" during the night (I see lamps under the rooftop). In case it is too dark, you can still add (IR) lights which are less expensive than a camera.
- placing IP cams behind glass might look smart (especially for protecting them from the elements (wind/sun/spiders) and thieves/vandals), however glass causes reflection/deflection and focus issues (you don't want the cam to focus on a fly residing on the glass and not on a car)
- placement: are 4 cams enough? all depends on the field-of-view of the cams you have in mind. Did you use IPVM Camera Calculator V3 to draw the ones in your first screenshot? If so, then you would have seen that "broadening" the FOV seriously impacts the DORI distances. Especially when you're looking for LPR, you need great details! Wider FOV is for "detection" not for "identification", remember.
- that's why the Z12 is a very good LPR subject cam, however it will have a VERY limited FOV

If budget squeezes down the number of cams, you might look at the environment from another angle. Under condition your gas station has only one access (not visible on your first screenshot), you could opt to work out with three cams like indicated here:

The red one inspects all cars coming in/out on the entrance road (this might require a varifocal starlight 2MP). This cam is aimed top-down.
The two purple ones inspect each side of the station and double checks all outgoing cars. These cams should be (potentially) hidden inside an advertisement pole/gas price sign, as you want to have a quite horizontal view, especially if you want to have face identification from the people inside the cars.
Protection/securing these cams is another issue, and you might require some wiring challenges to be solved.

Don't forget about some kind of Video Management System (NVR/BI/...) or look for compatibility with the existing system (even if it is garbage).

Plan study plan and read the cliff notes again.

Always welcome for further guidance!

Hope this helps,
CC

 

[tangent]

First of all, if they don't have an alarm system that's monitored, they need to get one. If they already have an alarm system make sure it includes: Glass break sensor(s), a hold up (robbery) panic button that triggers a silent alarm, and a vibration sensor designed for ATMs.

Even 10 years ago, it was common for gas stations in my area to have 16+ cameras. Don't expect to replace the entire camera system for <$1k and cover everything. I would start by evaluating the current system, quality of installation, quality / model of cameras, type of cable used by the cameras. Then it would be easier to think about how to proceed. Pictures (of the cameras, dvr/nvr (including the back where the cables are), and what the camera's see) and more information about the current system would be helpful. It's easy to spot the difference between a low quality diy cameras system and one that was professionally installed. If it's obvious that it's a DIY job, a thief may not be too worried about the cameras.

• Yes, I think you need cameras with a tight field of view covering the pumps.
• Trying to look through the windows is a REALLY bad idea.
• Pump and run hasn't been possible in my area in a long time, you either have to pre-pay cash or pre-pay with a credit card. I'm surprised your parent's pumps aren't set up this way.
• There have also been incidents of people stealing gas directly from the underground tanks, cameras covering the access to the tanks are also a good idea.
• The pumps themselves are also a popular target either to get free gas or to install a skimmer to steal credit card info.
• I strongly suggest some low in-your-face cameras at all the doors. Inside, outside, or both. A covert height strip camera is one option.
• A mixture of 2mp and 8mp cameras may be desirable. You also have the option of adding more light to improve camera performance at night.
• You don't have to do it all at once, you can add to the system as funds allow.
• It's likely that you may need a new nvr or computer vms, but it's only a guess without knowing more about the current system.

License plate capture is tricky to get right. You could try to use cameras on the main building that are zoomed in on the entrance (might take 2 cameras) or you could put a camera or three closer to the pumps. I understand that this is a high priority, but I don't think it's the best place to start. Better to make some mistakes elsewhere and learn from them first.

Stolen license/missing/covered plates and stolen cars are likely on vehicles involved in crimes so LPR may not help as much as you'd like.

 

[JamesJWP]

Thank you guys so much for the input. I have a few questions and comments:

But you have one main disadvantage: you seem to be in a "rush", and that makes it difficult, as IP camera's do require planning. Planning planning and planning. And more often than required: testing a cam on one position, evaluating and installing it on a better spot.

I apologize if I made it seem like we were in a rush. Just to clarify, time is not really that big of an issue, but getting better security sooner would definitely be more comforting. I understand that it will take careful planning so I will try not to rush any decisions I make.

2MP are indeed great in night, but I suspect your gas station is also "light up" during the night (I see lamps under the rooftop). In case it is too dark, you can still add (IR) lights which are less expensive than a camera.

I think new cameras are definitely a must right now because the image quality of the current ones are just too poor. Hypothetically, if I bought four Z12 cameras and replace the current ones I have looking outdoors, would I still need to buy separate 2 MP cameras just for the night?

placing IP cams behind glass might look smart (especially for protecting them from the elements (wind/sun/spiders) and thieves/vandals), however glass causes reflection/deflection and focus issues (you don't want the cam to focus on a fly residing on the glass and not on a car)

Do the cameras focus automatically, or do you set the focus to a certain distance? If it is automatic and a fly can mess up the focus, wouldn't placing it outside make it even more susceptible for other bugs to mess up the focus?

The two purple ones inspect each side of the station and double checks all outgoing cars. These cams should be (potentially) hidden inside an advertisement pole/gas price sign, as you want to have a quite horizontal view, especially if you want to have face identification from the people inside the cars.
Protection/securing these cams is another issue, and you might require some wiring challenges to be solved.

Securing and protecting the cameras is definitely one of the major concerns that we have. The location of the gas station is not great - it's kind of in the middle of nowhere in Missouri, and there are a lot of poor people/drug addicts who tend to steal and break stuff. The two purple locations would definitely be exposed, so I'm afraid that people will try to steal them or future robbers will break them if they do see them. Those camera locations do seem really helpful though, I just wish there was a safer option.

First of all, if they don't have an alarm system that's monitored, they need to get one. If they already have an alarm system make sure it includes: Glass break sensor(s), a hold up (robbery) panic button that triggers a silent alarm, and a vibration sensor designed for ATMs.

After the thief tried to steal the ATM machine, we actually recently got new glass break sensors. The previous ones that were installed failed to work during the actual robbery, so we're actually thinking about a lawsuit for the alarm company (but this is another topic for another day). We do have a panic button and motion detectors, so no worries there.

I would start by evaluating the current system, quality of installation, quality / model of cameras, type of cable used by the cameras. Then it would be easier to think about how to proceed. Pictures (of the cameras, dvr/nvr (including the back where the cables are), and what the camera's see) and more information about the current system would be helpful. It's easy to spot the difference between a low quality diy cameras system and one that was professionally installed. If it's obvious that it's a DIY job, a thief may not be too worried about the cameras.

I'll try to post more pictures and information about the current setup when I visit the gas station again. I don't know anything about the current cameras we have (How can I find the model numbers for them?) Our current camera system was professionally installed (I don't know how good of a job they did; hopefully, you can tell me once I post a picture). A DVR is currently installed, but no computer

Pump and run hasn't been possible in my area in a long time, you either have to pre-pay cash or pre-pay with a credit card. I'm surprised your parent's pumps aren't set up this way.

For some reason, we have an option where customers can select to pay inside. Pre-pay with cash or card is definitely not an issue, but what sometimes ends up happening is people will press pay inside, we open the pump for them, and then they just leave without paying. We are looking to update our current pumps soon (I don't know if the pay inside option will still be available then), but right now we just need better cameras to see the license plates of the runners.

 

[mat200]

..Securing and protecting the cameras is definitely one of the major concerns that we have...

Hi @JamesJWP

Sorry to hear about that sort of damage to the property.

Remember to decide what is most important.

1) Security Cameras capturing useful images
or
2) No one stealing / vandalizing security cameras

Basically - you get to pick one option.

#2 is very easy to accomplish, just do not buy cameras or do not install them...

#1 takes some planning, and putting cameras inside is not going to help accomplish this.

 

[J Sigmo]

I would want a pump system that either requires credit card, or that the customer prepay inside before the clerk enables the pump. And the system should automatically cut off the pump when it has dispensed the amount of gas paid for. And additionally, it should compute any refund amount if the car gets full before reaching the amount that the customer has prepaid.

That eliminates the "gas driveoff" issue.

But I can imagine pump systems not having that feature or customers not liking it because it can mean having to enter the store twice, and owners not liking it because it can mean more work for the clerks.

But as has been mentioned, people can obscure their plates or use a stolen car, and can disguise themselves with hoodies and hats, etc., so even with excellent camera systems, proficient crooks can avoid being identified.

Still, a well implemented camera system is nice to have along with your alarm system and other security measures.

 

[bp2008]

It is likely that the old camera system is analog garbage. We'll know more with close-up pictures of the cameras, connectors, DVR, etc. If that is the case, there do exist modern HD and 4K cameras and DVRs that can reuse the siamese cable from the earlier analog system. These are designed to be cost-effective upgrades when you want to reuse existing cables.

For example, if you already had 4-8 siamese cable drops in good condition, then this right here would be a killer deal for an upgrade: Complete 8 Channel 1080P HD-TVI Dome Surveillance System w/ 1TB Hard Drive Let me be clear, this is not as good as a fully new IP camera system. The cameras are all wide angle and would likely be unable to read license plates more than 20 or 30 feet away. But it would absolutely blow away an old analog system and still leave you most of your budget for starting an IP camera system.

For a basic Blue Iris based IP cam system, assume $100 for a PC, $70 for a copy of Blue Iris 5, $36 for a small PoE switch, about $10 per pre-built network cable (solid copper), and $130 starlight cameras (alternate starlight camera) or $140 4K cameras. Assuming a $1000 budget, you could afford the HD-TVI upgrade kit, plus an inexpensive Blue Iris build with 3 IP cameras and room for future upgrades.